Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

[mount123]

My focus is on two things:
- where are the E-V13 samples from, which region and cultural formation in particular.
- did they sample Thracians, for Serbia especially Basarabi and/or Ferigile.

The study seems to primarily focuse on Serbia but as was mentioned by Lalueza-Fox himself it also entails samples from other places such as Croatia etc. No other specifics unfortunately.

[Illyria]

I agree with Wiki people as you stated, changing data to suit their needs .............I have even seen they change Haplogroup markers ie E-V13 to R1b or R1a ...which even though scientific papers linked below state they are E-V13

In regards to Illyrian as a language..........none exists .............Illyrian tribes where trading on both sides of the adriatic sea from the late bronze-age, trade languages where used

regarding Rome and modern Albania .............the romans occupied the lands from 229BC

Regarding the Latin & Italian languages..................... none exists.................

1000BC, Southern Italy was settled by J2b2 Illyrians long before Italics................... There was even J2b2 Illyrians with Etruscans in Northern Italy................ When the Italics finally met them there.................... they used Illyrian-Messapic trade language on both sides of the Adriatic......................

Regarding Illyrians and modern Italy........... the Illyrians occupied the lands from 1000BC........................

[mount123]

The study seems to primarily focuse on Serbia but as was mentioned by Lalueza-Fox himself it also entails samples from other places such as Croatia etc. No other specifics unfortunately.

Edit: with etc. meaning the Albanian, North Macedonian IA samples and so on.

What would Basarabi culture sites in Serbia be? Or are you grouping them with Bosut sites like Zidovar, Bosut Gradina etc.?

Either way I am expecting E1b-V13 to be present in sites clearly influenced by or related to Channeled Ware.

[Riverman]

Edit: with etc. meaning the Albanian, North Macedonian IA samples and so on.

What would Basarabi culture sites in Serbia be? Or are you grouping them with Bosut sites like Zidovar, Bosut Gradina etc.?

Either way I am expecting E1b-V13 to be present in sites clearly influenced by or related to Channeled Ware.

There isn't a strict border between Bosut, Basarabi and even Ferigile to some extent. Kalakaca is the great unknown, as it might have foreign influence from non-Channelled Ware people and this influenced in turn Bosut and Basarabi to some degree. But even the experts are not always of the same opinion and the good thing about Kalakaca and Basarabi is that they used inhumation more often than the earlier Channelled Ware people. And even if having foreign influences, its unlikely it was a full replacement from non-Channelled Ware groups. Rather from the direction of Bulgaria-Romania some influx did happen after Kalakaca.

In the second section we point to the area of northeastern Serbia where during the Early Iron Age period elements of the Basarabi culture are most clearly distinguished and that, as it seems, are replaced without interruption by the elements of Ferigile group of the Early Iron Age. Large quantity of iron objects including fragments of tools, weapons and jewelry has been found together with Basarabi and Ferigile group pottery in the area of northeastern Serbia, which is abounding in copper and iron ores. Early Iron Age chronology in Serbia, particularly in the south parts of the Pannonian plain and north parts of central Balkans is based to the greatest extent on the stratigraphy of the multi-layered settlement Gradina na Bosutu in Srem (Medović 1978; 1988). In the recently published monograph on the settlement of the Early Iron Age at Bosut 10 habitation horizons in total have been distinguished that are believed to encompass chronologically the entire Early Iron Age (Medović–Medović 2011). he remains of the above ground houses of rectangular ground plan were discovered in all habitation horizons starting with the earliest settlement attributed to the Kalakača phase of the Early Iron Age, through settlements with Basarabi style pottery ending with few late Hallstatt settlements with channeled pottery.

https://www.academia.edu/30554381/Ba...Age_Chronology

[torzio]

Regarding the Latin & Italian languages..................... none exists.................

1000BC, Southern Italy was settled by J2b2 Illyrians long before Italics................... There was even J2b2 Illyrians with Etruscans in Northern Italy................ When the Italics finally met them there.................... they used Illyrian-Messapic trade language on both sides of the Adriatic......................

Regarding Illyrians and modern Italy........... the Illyrians occupied the lands from 1000BC........................

true, Latin was not on the adriatic sea side at the time ............I do not recall Latin before 700BC

At best we have a Adriatic sea trade language ............with the Liburnians and their fleet ruling the Adriatic sea from the late bronze age to at least 500BC

The Liburnians even took Corfu ( Scheria in bronze-age times ) from the Phaeacians. and eventually lost it to the Corinthians after being there for over 300 years.

According to Strabo (VI, 269), the Liburnians were masters of the island Korkyra (Corfu), until 735 BC, when they left it, under pressure of Corinthian ruler Hersikrates, in a period of Corinthian expansion to South Italy, Sicily and Ionian Sea.

[Bergin]

I do have a question: is it possible to perform Identical by descent (IBD) on such the ancient database?
Since it has not been done I suppose something is problematic.... but i don't understand if it lack of resources, or of interest, or just impossible.

[Riverman]

I do have a question: is it possible to perform Identical by descent (IBD) on such the ancient database?
Since it has not been done I suppose something is problematic.... but i don't understand if it lack of resources, or of interest, or just impossible.

It was done, its possible, but its oftentimes rather unreliable, because of the size of the segments.

I think the long term goal should be to work from generation to generation. Like take for example the Goths and Langobards. You could test from the Polish remains, to those in Ukraine-Carpathian basin, then the ones living in Northern Italy, Northern Italian Early Medieval etc.

So you could reconstruct a chain, because if the coverage is good enough, and you have a rather continuous chain of related populations, then you can do it with much higher accuracy than if comparing e.g. a population from 1.000 BC with one from 2.000 AD. For the latter uniparentals are at the moment, from my point of view, still the way to go, especially if its about patrilinear people.

But there have been efforts to close even wider gaps with sophisticated methods, yet they seem to be not overly reliable I guess.

[torzio]

It was done, its possible, but its oftentimes rather unreliable, because of the size of the segments.

I think the long term goal should be to work from generation to generation. Like take for example the Goths and Langobards. You could test from the Polish remains, to those in Ukraine-Carpathian basin, then the ones living in Northern Italy, Northern Italian Early Medieval etc.

So you could reconstruct a chain, because if the coverage is good enough, and you have a rather continuous chain of related populations, then you can do it with much higher accuracy than if comparing e.g. a population from 1.000 BC with one from 2.000 AD. For the latter uniparentals are at the moment, from my point of view, still the way to go, especially if its about patrilinear people.

But there have been efforts to close even wider gaps with sophisticated methods, yet they seem to be not overly reliable I guess.

Ostrogoth history in North Italy lasted less than 100 years.....their capital was Ravenna and they where conquered by the invading Longobards from East Austria who made Pavia their capital

Before the ostrogoths went to Italy...they lived on the northern side of the black sea fro over 300 years ........originally coming there circa 150BC from Vistula delta Poland area, Gotland and Scania Sweden

[A. Papadimitriou]

The questions I have are

- Where is the Bronze Age R1a-Z283 from?
- Where are the Mesolithic J2a-L26 from?
- Where is the Mesolithic I1 from?

Also what is their autosomal profile?

And more information about R1b of 'unknown sublaces'.

[capisan]

The questions I have are

- Where is the Bronze Age R1a-Z283 from?
- Where are the Mesolithic J2a-L26 from?
- Where is the Mesolithic I1 from?

Also what is their autosomal profile?

And more information about R1b of 'unknown sublaces'.

for R1b maybe under R-V88 ?

[matadworf]

I’ve managed to trace my G line back to 16th c. All indications they moved South in Greece from the NW (Epirus) much earlier as sheepherders living in remote mountainous regions. I’m mildly convinced that remnants of G in the Balkans could be Neolithic survivors.

[Archetype0ne]

I’ve managed to trace my G line back to 16th c. All indications they moved South in Greece from the NW (Epirus) much earlier as sheepherders living in remote mountainous regions. I’m mildly convinced that remnants of G in the Balkans could be Neolithic survivors.

M406? Or some other clade? Have family with this clade from South Albania. But the clade is so old, most clades are for G in general, that it is very hard to make sense of it in a historical perspective. Even scientific papers label them at 6k, 10k< nomenclatures. While some could have been CHG/IEorCaucasus settlers post Neolithic, the rest would have been associated with EEF ultimately from Anatolia.

[Riverman]

The questions I have are

- Where is the Bronze Age R1a-Z283 from?
- Where are the Mesolithic J2a-L26 from?
- Where is the Mesolithic I1 from?

Also what is their autosomal profile?

And more information about R1b of 'unknown sublaces'.

The Bronze Age R-Z283 likely came from Mierzanowice-Kostany into the formation of Füzesabony. And it will have been present in Trzciniec-Komarow into Lusatians, especially Eastern Lusatian periphery I guess.

[Kari]

Serbs are not 50-60% slavic.They are like 25-35%

[Riverman]

Serbs are not 50-60% slavic.They are like 25-35%

Depends like always primarily on the references you are using. Will be seen with more samples from pre-Slavic Serbia.

[matadworf]

M406? Or some other clade? Have family with this clade from South Albania. But the clade is so old, most clades are for G in general, that it is very hard to make sense of it in a historical perspective. Even scientific papers label them at 6k, 10k< nomenclatures. While some could have been CHG/IEorCaucasus settlers post Neolithic, the rest would have been associated with EEF ultimately from Anatolia.

g2a2a PF 3237 subclade. Of course that’s through Morley predictor.

[Archetype0ne]

g2a2a PF 3237 subclade. Of course that’s through Morley predictor.

My maternal Y: https://www.yfull.com/tree/G-M406/
As you can see from the flags all of Caucasus post Eneolithic migration, IE, or EEF could be candidates. The TMRCAs are 9k+... but presence of flags from Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, and Greece, as well as Middle Eastern Emirates, or even IE nations such as Scotts etc really does not narrow anything down as to which hypothesis fits best. I am inclined to think this branch is EEF, but have no strong arguments for it. Certainly branches of G or I would have been Pelasgian, if such denomination even existed. Not sure if this fits.

[ihype02]

Serbs are not 50-60% slavic.They are like 25-35%

Yes they are 50-60% North Slavic, if not more because Slavs were likely mixed before they made permanent settlements. 25% is a low percentage even if you model them with modern Albanians let alone Roman era sample.

[matadworf]

Looks like my subclade G2a2a (PF3237)) has been found in Barcin and Bellbeaker culture and I get really high ENF autosomal results (like 60% vs. 32% IE).

[Aaron1981]

for R1b maybe under R-V88 ?

They already have a category in the chart for R-V88, so nope. I think mostly will be M269+ (xL23) since that's a fairly common subclade in the Balkans today and closely related to R-L23+ (xL51) Yamnaya groups since they were found in the same geography in our archaeological records.

[kingjohn]

This pre-print ( before the future addition balkan samples)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.full

Yesterday i asked Carles Lalueza-Fox in email:

when the final paper will be published ?

he was kind enough to answer


his answere:
lets hope for next year

[Riverman]

This pre-print ( before the future addition balkan samples)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.full

Yesterday i asked Carles Lalueza-Fox in email:

when the final paper will be published ?

he was kind enough to answer


his answere:
lets hope for next year

That's quite a disappointment.

[kingjohn]

That's quite a disappointment.

Indeed
What can we do
We will just have to wait patiently
And hope it will get published earlier

P.s
Hope to see the 3 southern arc papers
erikl86 talked about soon

[mount123]

This pre-print ( before the future addition balkan samples)

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....458211v1.full

Yesterday i asked Carles Lalueza-Fox in email:

when the final paper will be published ?

he was kind enough to answer


his answere:
lets hope for next year

Thanks for sharing! Quite disappointing indeed. Let's just hope that other upcoming papers we've been anticipating won't follow the same delay or have a late publication date.

[peloponnesian]

g2a2a PF 3237 subclade. Of course that’s through Morley predictor.

What does YSEQ's cladefinder give you? Can you post a screenshot?