Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

[Dushman]

From Bruzmi @ Anthrogenica

I don't like quoting that dude and his fake ass models, but this is raw data.

Why are his models fake by the way?

 

[Hawk]

Southern Illyrians more southern shifted. Gee who would've thought. This is too easy lmfao. I feel bad for these dudes who want to make historical fanfic

Depending on the dates of these samples, we need to add

(1) Roman Imperial (East, south-east?)

(2) Slavic/Germanic (North/North-East)

to get modern Albanians.

Actually, i said long time ago, Illyrians from Albania should look like Central Italians.

 

[torzio]

Per 200 other authors, it doesn't. Albanian and Messapic clearly belong to the same branch, and Messapic-Illyrian are also clearly linked linguistically, archeologically, etc... We literally have countless evidence Messapians came from the western Balkans.

Not to mention all the countless Illyrian tribe names linked to Albanian animals/plants. These are Western Balkans linked. Serbia clearly drifts off. Those lineages don't represent ancestral Albanians.

There is no link between the 2 ( messapic and albanan ) until the trade in pottery commenced after the Corinthians arrived in the Adriatic sea circa 730BC

https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginf...ent/1/Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.pdf

where , as per every other place in the world, trade shared linguistic links ( Lingua Franca ) Definition of lingua franca
: any of various languages used as common or commercial tongues among peoples of diverse speech

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

 

[torzio]

Lecture on Slavic Migrations and the Origin of People in the Balkans

‘Slavic Migrations and Genomic Origin of the Balkan People’ is the title of the lecture to be delivered by Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox at the SASA Grand Hall, on Tuesday, 28 June, at noon.
A several-year-long study on the origin of the Balkan people has revealed that about a half of today’s Serbian population’s genomes is indigenous, at least up to the Bronze age, whereas the remaining half is of Slavic origin, descendant from the Slavic migrants in the 7th century. Therefore, Slavic migration to the Balkans did not bring about population replacement, but an admixture of indigenous Balkan genome and the genome of Slavic migrants. Molecular markers have suggested that the Slavic migrations to the Balkans could have originated from present-day Poland and Ukraine. This study analyses the genetic structure of the local people in the region of Serbia in the Bronze, Iron, Roman and post-Roman period, and the present-day population. This continuity in the analysis has paved the way for identifying the constancy of population in our region and the DNA proportion in today’s modern population with lineage traced back to ancient history. The sites for the research of population’s genetic changes include Viminuacium, Mediana, Timacum Minus and several other sites in the Balkans, which provides a basis for the analysis of later Slavic migrations and facilitates modelling of the genetic structure of the modern Serbian population in the wider context of other Balkan people.
The above-mentioned study is the result of the cooperation of the Faculty of Biology of the University of Belgrade (Professor Midrag Grbić, a visiting professor, Professor Željko Tomanović, SASA corresponding member, Professor Dušan Keckarević), Institute of Archaeology (Dr Ilija Mikić, research associate, Dr Miomir Korać, principal research fellows and associates), University Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona (Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox and associates), Harvard University, Harvard Medical School (Professor David Reich and associates).


from the actual lecture :

Thanks

Another smack in the face for the people trying to place west-baltic people as Slavs .................I stated years ago , east of the Vistula and Nogat rivers , baltic coastal people had zero slavic ethnicity

 

[enter_tain]

Why are his models fake by the way?

Picks weird samples to "disprove" theories. Used some random Czech sample to model Slavic ancestry in Albanians and ignores Balkan Slavs.

When someone else pointed this out, he kept crying about it.

 

[enter_tain]

There is no link between the 2 ( messapic and albanan ) until the trade in pottery commenced after the Corinthians arrived in the Adriatic sea circa 730BC
https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginf...ent/1/Daunians, Peucetians and Messapians.pdf
where , as per every other place in the world, trade shared linguistic links ( Lingua Franca ) Definition of lingua franca
: any of various languages used as common or commercial tongues among peoples of diverse speech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

From the inscriptions we have, Albanian/Messapians share core a lot of core vocab for example son daughter which is bir/i /bije/a, which in Messapic it's bili, bilia.

But also A LOT of grammar rules. Brindisi in Italy today is etymologically linked to Albanian "bri" meaning antler, related to its port.

 

[enter_tain]

Actually, i said long time ago, Illyrians from Albania should look like Central Italians.

Depends on the time period. Roman Empire Illyrians should be more east/south-east.

I'm curious to see if we can compare these new samples with the Roman Illyrian ones, to determine the % of Roman Imperial.

 

[kingjohn]

i didn't understand since i am not a member of anthrogenica
i can't see the map from where the samples in this lecture were taken which pribislav posted
from what i read in anthrogenica by other members the samples from albania are: from kukes
and kolonje
i don't know if they are dated to roman period or iron age
i think it is very likely we are going to see e-v13 in those 2 albanian sites

 

[blevins13]

Actually, i said long time ago, Illyrians from Albania should look like Central Italians.

You mean Illyrii proprie dicti or Illyrians proper


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[td120]

Kingjohn,here are the images from Pribislav's post:

Iron Age :

 

[blevins13]

Albanian and Albanian Iron Age almost over lap, and together with Albanian I see Peloponnesus-Greeks. Very interesting.


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[Hawk]

You mean Illyrii proprie dicti or Illyrians proper


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Illyri proprie dictii means Illyrians proper as far as i know.

Regarding territorial designation i think Illyrians from Montenegro were included into proprie dictii as well. Let's see. Don't really know how the picture will end. I am curious as well if the three Albanian Y-DNA E-V13, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 will be found together in Iron Age Albania.

 

[kingjohn]

Kingjohn,here are the images from Pribislav's post:

Iron Age :

Thanks for sharing
It look that the map show only samples dated
To 2 periods:
Roman period
Medieval period

P.s
I guess the iron age samples from albania and north macedonia which are presented in pca
Are not in this map but must have been anlaysed in there lab

 

[td120]

Not sure, but the video from the lecture should be available soon on YT they promised (waiting for green light from the Academy).

 

[blevins13]

Illyri proprie dictii means Illyrians proper as far as i know.

Regarding territorial designation i think Illyrians from Montenegro were included into proprie dictii as well. Let's see. Don't really know how the picture will end. I am curious as well if the three Albanian Y-DNA E-V13, J2b2-L283 and R1b-Z2103 will be found together in Iron Age Albania.

They all will be there, but I expect mixed population during Roman period in the metropolitan areas.


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[Moja]

The oldest sample of J2b has been found in Luristan (Elluria/Alluria in the ancient Akkadian sources) in the west of Iran. Illyria is from Ancient Greek Ἰλλυρία (Illuría).

 

[Hawk]

The oldest sample of J2b has been found in Luristan (Elluria/Alluria in the ancient Akkadian sources) in the west of Iran. Illyria is from Ancient Greek Ἰλλυρία (Illuría).

IMO, too deep in history to still make any reliable connection.

Luristan looks like it means the land of Lurs, Lurs were Indo-Iranian people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs. Indo-Iranians are usually R1a, J2a and J1, G1, G2a, R2. No real historical connections with Illyrians.

 

[Moja]

IMO, too deep in history to still make any reliable connection.
Luristan looks like it means the land of Lurs, Lurs were Indo-Iranian people: Indo-Iranians are usually R1a, J2a and J1, G1, G2a, R2. No real historical connections with Illyrians.

There is absolutely no evidence which shows ancient people of Elluria/Alluria were Iranian-speaking people, the fact is that "l" didn't exist in the Iranian phonology, for this reason the name of Babylon in Old Persian was Babirush. Lurs have just adopted an Iranian culture.

 

[Moja]

The original land of Elluria/Alluria was between Dinar mountain and Derilon river in the west of Iran.

 

[Moja]

Lurs still wear the same ancient Allurian white felt hat.