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Thread: Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

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    Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

    In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.




    Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

    Neolithic by G2a

    Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

    Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.




    Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

    Neolithic by G2a

    Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

    Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.
    very nice
    looks interesting
    like 17% e-v13 in iron age ( if i am reading that correctly)
    from where in the balkan the samples were taken ?
    i wonder what haplogroups are in the other category ?
    Last edited by kingjohn; 28-06-22 at 20:26.
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.




    Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

    Neolithic by G2a

    Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

    Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.

    How can you tell E-V13 was not brought by near easterner migrants since it increased during 0-500?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    How can you tell E-V13 was not brought by near easterner migrants since it increased during 0-500?
    Because of archaeogenetics, during Bronze to Iron Age transition various inter-related groups from Balkan-Carpathian hemisphere, starting from Vatin up north to Gava-Nyirseg which were the original Urnfield bearers came down and moved and invaded Central and Eastern Balkans mainly, modern phylogeny supports this, ancient archaeology supports this, and now common sense supports this. E-V13 in Near East/Anatolia is insignificant, most of subclades are down-clade of European major clades. Also, there is no indication why would E-V13 Thracian-related groups to prosper under Romans within Balkan itself, Dacians were themselves quite affected from Roman wars, Thracians from Sapae had to a degree some advantage, the only reasonable explanation is just as described in Viminacium paper the native Central and Eastern Balkan population leaving cremation for Christian tradition burial and of course sampling the native Balkan population after this burial rite is abandoned will give us a better picture.

    Bronze to Iron Age transition in Balkans foresaw mostly in Central-Eastern Balkans the intrusion of cremation burial on a pyre on top of tumuli, this particular related cultures affected South Albania, Epirus and Greece to a degree as well.

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    I am also wondering about G2a, notice how good their percentage was during 0-500, 500-1500? Where are their modern representatives then? It could be that the study might suffer from sampling bias. Who knows. But it still gives us some picture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    How can you tell E-V13 was not brought by near easterner migrants since it increased during 0-500?
    Because there's like none E-V13 in Anatolia, Levant or the Sahara, it's all in Europe.
    And not only exists in former Ottoman territories; also exists in S. Italy, France, the UK.

    And by the way, it's already present in Neolithic Europe in the far south, Andalusia, Sardinia...

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    Actually, i am seeing a very-very minor percentage of E-V13/E-L618 in Mesolithic times.

    edit: Indeed, E-L618/E-V13 was present in Mesolithic times along G2a, probably in the shores between Anatolia and Greece. Their percentage is quite small, there is also I1 and J2a.

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    Also, E-V13 were badly hit by Slavic migrations, this goes against the assumption of people saying that the Slavs brought additional E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.
    Seeing as Urnfield practised cremation, wouldn't there be less Urnfield samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Actually, i am seeing a very-very minor percentage of E-V13/E-L618 in Mesolithic times.

    edit: Indeed, E-L618/E-V13 was present in Mesolithic times along G2a, probably in the shores between Anatolia and Greece. Their percentage is quite small, there is also I1 and J2a.

    yes very likely it is E-L618
    either way it is extremely cool
    i wonder from which site this sample will come
    though it might be the same sample from the cave in dalmatia

    p.s
    the c-v20 in mesolithic is fascinating la brana is "alive" and kicking
    Last edited by kingjohn; 28-06-22 at 21:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Philjames100 View Post
    Seeing as Urnfield practised cremation, wouldn't there be less Urnfield samples?
    Exactly, it was already stated in Viminacium paper:

    A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Ychromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-IronAge expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living atViminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial andlater periods (~47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated.

    Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and theGenomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...211v1.full.pdf
    And latest Urnfield archaeological paper just confirms this:

    The earliest examples of urnfields in the area under consideration can be found in the Carpathian Basin, where this new and complex way of treating and disposing of the dead tends to be juxtaposed with and/or replace the traditional flat inhumations, primary cremations (‘in situ cremations’), or scattered cremations from at least the twenty-fifth century BC. However, it is during the first half of the 2nd millennium BC—and more intensively around the sixteenth–fifteenth centuries BC—that the urnfield custom crosses its original boundaries and starts to be intensively practised in other regions, or isolated sites still surrounded by communities practising other kinds of funerary ritual. To what extent the spread of the urnfield model is the result of cultural transmission rather than (at least partially) a demic diffusion can be debated, but unfortunately not easily verified, since cremation destroys DNA and therefore the identification of any population movement via aDNA analysis. Beside the ideological aspects, the new biomolecular evidence of virulent pathogens, most notably Yersinia pestis, found in individuals dated to the 3rd and 2nd millennia BC, from Central Asia to Central/Northern Europe (Andrades Valtueña et al., 2017; Rasmussen et al., 2015; Spyrou, 2018; Rascovan et al., 2019), suggests that the diffusion of certain epidemics, especially in densely populated and well-interconnected regions, might have triggered practical responses by societies attempting to limit transmission. The burning of corpses may be one of these.
    https://link.springer.com/article/10...63-022-09164-0
    No wonder that the earliest E-V13 finds come from Early Iron Age irregular burial pits, sacrifices, burial pits and sacrificial remains are typical of the Eastern Urnfield Cultural Complex. The so called fluted ware/channeled ware which ultimate origin should be sought in Carpathian Basin foresaw a sudden rise with a very slow expansion during Middle Bronze Age and a massive expansion during Late Bronze Age, but these people mostly migrated in South-East Europe mainly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.




    Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

    Neolithic by G2a

    Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

    Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.
    Very interesting. I just posted this a few days ago, but it should serve for all Paleo-Balkan tribes.



    Very similar dates time periods. I also had 0 to 500 AD, and 500 AD to present. I wonder how they define Bronze Age and Iron Age. I used 700 BC to 0 for Iron Age, 2000 BC to 700 BC for M/LBA, and earlier than that for EBA.

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    Also Hawk, please shut up. I told you EV-13 wasn't that popular and it experienced a founder effect. You keep expecting an 80% EV-13 population. You're not going to get it.

    We have 0 proof that a mostly EV-13 MAJOR population ever existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Also Hawk, please shut up. I told you EV-13 wasn't that popular and it experienced a founder effect. You keep expecting an 80% EV-13 population. You're not going to get it.

    We have 0 proof that a mostly EV-13 MAJOR population ever existed.
    E-V13 from Bronze to Iron Age transition and onwards was the major Y-DNA in Balkans and that's evident. This is what people specialized in these field say.

    A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Ychromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-IronAge expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living atViminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial andlater periods (~47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated.

    Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and theGenomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...211v1.full.pdf
    So, imagine if all people equally practiced inhumation, the bars of Iron Age would look like 0-500, a timeline when cremation started to be abandoned by Central Balkan people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Very interesting. I just posted this a few days ago, but it should serve for all Paleo-Balkan tribes.



    Very similar dates time periods. I also had 0 to 500 AD, and 500 AD to present. I wonder how they define Bronze Age and Iron Age. I used 700 BC to 0 for Iron Age, 2000 BC to 700 BC for M/LBA, and earlier than that for EBA.
    Dardapara,

    Per Joachim Matzinger (Der Illyrer, 2021 book), Illyrian and Albanian belong to two different branches within Indo-European language family. So, if J2b2-L283 is Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian-related then Proto-Albanoids had different lineages initially. Though, some J2b2-L283 clades in Central Balkans did participate in the formation of Proto-Albanians just as some R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 (the main candidate for Proto-Albanoids so far but not all subclades). No wonder, to this day Carpathian (karpë) and Beskidy(bjeshkë) are etymologies of a remnant Albanoid-like language from Bronze/Iron Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Dardapara,

    Per Joachim Matzinger (Der Illyrer, 2021 book), Illyrian and Albanian belong to two different branches within Indo-European language family. So, if J2b2-L283 is Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian-related then Proto-Albanoids had different lineages initially. Though, some J2b2-L283 clades in Central Balkans did participate in the formation of Proto-Albanians just as some R1b-Z2103 and E-V13 (the main candidate for Proto-Albanoids so far but not all subclades). No wonder, to this day Carpathian (karpë) and Beskidy(bjeshkë) are etymologies of a remnant Albanoid-like language from Bronze/Iron Age.
    Per 200 other authors, it doesn't. Albanian and Messapic clearly belong to the same branch, and Messapic-Illyrian are also clearly linked linguistically, archeologically, etc... We literally have countless evidence Messapians came from the western Balkans.

    Not to mention all the countless Illyrian tribe names linked to Albanian animals/plants. These are Western Balkans linked. Serbia clearly drifts off. Those lineages don't represent ancestral Albanians.

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    Lecture on Slavic Migrations and the Origin of People in the Balkans

    ‘Slavic Migrations and Genomic Origin of the Balkan People’ is the title of the lecture to be delivered by Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox at the SASA Grand Hall, on Tuesday, 28 June, at noon.
    A several-year-long study on the origin of the Balkan people has revealed that about a half of today’s Serbian population’s genomes is indigenous, at least up to the Bronze age, whereas the remaining half is of Slavic origin, descendant from the Slavic migrants in the 7th century. Therefore, Slavic migration to the Balkans did not bring about population replacement, but an admixture of indigenous Balkan genome and the genome of Slavic migrants. Molecular markers have suggested that the Slavic migrations to the Balkans could have originated from present-day Poland and Ukraine. This study analyses the genetic structure of the local people in the region of Serbia in the Bronze, Iron, Roman and post-Roman period, and the present-day population. This continuity in the analysis has paved the way for identifying the constancy of population in our region and the DNA proportion in today’s modern population with lineage traced back to ancient history. The sites for the research of population’s genetic changes include Viminuacium, Mediana, Timacum Minus and several other sites in the Balkans, which provides a basis for the analysis of later Slavic migrations and facilitates modelling of the genetic structure of the modern Serbian population in the wider context of other Balkan people.
    The above-mentioned study is the result of the cooperation of the Faculty of Biology of the University of Belgrade (Professor Midrag Grbić, a visiting professor, Professor Željko Tomanović, SASA corresponding member, Professor Dušan Keckarević), Institute of Archaeology (Dr Ilija Mikić, research associate, Dr Miomir Korać, principal research fellows and associates), University Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona (Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox and associates), Harvard University, Harvard Medical School (Professor David Reich and associates).


    from the actual lecture :








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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post



    Lecture on Slavic Migrations and the Origin of People in the Balkans

    ‘Slavic Migrations and Genomic Origin of the Balkan People’ is the title of the lecture to be delivered by Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox at the SASA Grand Hall, on Tuesday, 28 June, at noon.
    A several-year-long study on the origin of the Balkan people has revealed that about a half of today’s Serbian population’s genomes is indigenous, at least up to the Bronze age, whereas the remaining half is of Slavic origin, descendant from the Slavic migrants in the 7th century. Therefore, Slavic migration to the Balkans did not bring about population replacement, but an admixture of indigenous Balkan genome and the genome of Slavic migrants. Molecular markers have suggested that the Slavic migrations to the Balkans could have originated from present-day Poland and Ukraine. This study analyses the genetic structure of the local people in the region of Serbia in the Bronze, Iron, Roman and post-Roman period, and the present-day population. This continuity in the analysis has paved the way for identifying the constancy of population in our region and the DNA proportion in today’s modern population with lineage traced back to ancient history. The sites for the research of population’s genetic changes include Viminuacium, Mediana, Timacum Minus and several other sites in the Balkans, which provides a basis for the analysis of later Slavic migrations and facilitates modelling of the genetic structure of the modern Serbian population in the wider context of other Balkan people.
    The above-mentioned study is the result of the cooperation of the Faculty of Biology of the University of Belgrade (Professor Midrag Grbić, a visiting professor, Professor Željko Tomanović, SASA corresponding member, Professor Dušan Keckarević), Institute of Archaeology (Dr Ilija Mikić, research associate, Dr Miomir Korać, principal research fellows and associates), University Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona (Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox and associates), Harvard University, Harvard Medical School (Professor David Reich and associates).


    from the actual lecture :







    Excellent, thanks for sharing. No surprises
    about the appearance of haplogroups brought by Slavs or that ancient Balkan people mixed with Slavs and were not replaced. Complete replacement was an unreasonable idea going back at least to Cavalli-Sforza. It’s also reasonable for Stamatoyannopoulos et al. to have assumed the Slavs came from Poland/Ukraine (duh), and not too unreasonable to use modern northern Slavs as proxies, given that there may have been few if any ancient Slavic samples. Would love to see how close modern Poles and Ukrainians are to the Slavs who came to the Balkans.

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    Southern Illyrians more southern shifted. Gee who would've thought. This is too easy lmfao. I feel bad for these dudes who want to make historical fanfic

    Depending on the dates of these samples, we need to add

    (1) Roman Imperial (East, south-east?)

    (2) Slavic/Germanic (North/North-East)

    to get modern Albanians.

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    From Bruzmi @ Anthrogenica



    I don't like quoting that dude and his fake ass models, but this is raw data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    From Bruzmi @ Anthrogenica



    I don't like quoting that dude and his fake ass models, but this is raw data.
    Why are his models fake by the way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Southern Illyrians more southern shifted. Gee who would've thought. This is too easy lmfao. I feel bad for these dudes who want to make historical fanfic

    Depending on the dates of these samples, we need to add

    (1) Roman Imperial (East, south-east?)

    (2) Slavic/Germanic (North/North-East)

    to get modern Albanians.
    Actually, i said long time ago, Illyrians from Albania should look like Central Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Per 200 other authors, it doesn't. Albanian and Messapic clearly belong to the same branch, and Messapic-Illyrian are also clearly linked linguistically, archeologically, etc... We literally have countless evidence Messapians came from the western Balkans.

    Not to mention all the countless Illyrian tribe names linked to Albanian animals/plants. These are Western Balkans linked. Serbia clearly drifts off. Those lineages don't represent ancestral Albanians.
    There is no link between the 2 ( messapic and albanan ) until the trade in pottery commenced after the Corinthians arrived in the Adriatic sea circa 730BC

    https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfi...Messapians.pdf

    where , as per every other place in the world, trade shared linguistic links ( Lingua Franca ) Definition of lingua franca
    : any of various languages used as common or commercial tongues among peoples of diverse speech


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post



    Lecture on Slavic Migrations and the Origin of People in the Balkans

    ‘Slavic Migrations and Genomic Origin of the Balkan People’ is the title of the lecture to be delivered by Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox at the SASA Grand Hall, on Tuesday, 28 June, at noon.
    A several-year-long study on the origin of the Balkan people has revealed that about a half of today’s Serbian population’s genomes is indigenous, at least up to the Bronze age, whereas the remaining half is of Slavic origin, descendant from the Slavic migrants in the 7th century. Therefore, Slavic migration to the Balkans did not bring about population replacement, but an admixture of indigenous Balkan genome and the genome of Slavic migrants. Molecular markers have suggested that the Slavic migrations to the Balkans could have originated from present-day Poland and Ukraine. This study analyses the genetic structure of the local people in the region of Serbia in the Bronze, Iron, Roman and post-Roman period, and the present-day population. This continuity in the analysis has paved the way for identifying the constancy of population in our region and the DNA proportion in today’s modern population with lineage traced back to ancient history. The sites for the research of population’s genetic changes include Viminuacium, Mediana, Timacum Minus and several other sites in the Balkans, which provides a basis for the analysis of later Slavic migrations and facilitates modelling of the genetic structure of the modern Serbian population in the wider context of other Balkan people.
    The above-mentioned study is the result of the cooperation of the Faculty of Biology of the University of Belgrade (Professor Midrag Grbić, a visiting professor, Professor Željko Tomanović, SASA corresponding member, Professor Dušan Keckarević), Institute of Archaeology (Dr Ilija Mikić, research associate, Dr Miomir Korać, principal research fellows and associates), University Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona (Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox and associates), Harvard University, Harvard Medical School (Professor David Reich and associates).


    from the actual lecture :








    Thanks

    Another smack in the face for the people trying to place west-baltic people as Slavs .................I stated years ago , east of the Vistula and Nogat rivers , baltic coastal people had zero slavic ethnicity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Why are his models fake by the way?
    Picks weird samples to "disprove" theories. Used some random Czech sample to model Slavic ancestry in Albanians and ignores Balkan Slavs.

    When someone else pointed this out, he kept crying about it.

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