Ancient Balkans Y-DNA lineages

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Lecture on Slavic Migrations and the Origin of People in the Balkans

‘Slavic Migrations and Genomic Origin of the Balkan People’ is the title of the lecture to be delivered by Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox at the SASA Grand Hall, on Tuesday, 28 June, at noon.
A several-year-long study on the origin of the Balkan people has revealed that about a half of today’s Serbian population’s genomes is indigenous, at least up to the Bronze age, whereas the remaining half is of Slavic origin, descendant from the Slavic migrants in the 7th century. Therefore, Slavic migration to the Balkans did not bring about population replacement, but an admixture of indigenous Balkan genome and the genome of Slavic migrants. Molecular markers have suggested that the Slavic migrations to the Balkans could have originated from present-day Poland and Ukraine. This study analyses the genetic structure of the local people in the region of Serbia in the Bronze, Iron, Roman and post-Roman period, and the present-day population. This continuity in the analysis has paved the way for identifying the constancy of population in our region and the DNA proportion in today’s modern population with lineage traced back to ancient history. The sites for the research of population’s genetic changes include Viminuacium, Mediana, Timacum Minus and several other sites in the Balkans, which provides a basis for the analysis of later Slavic migrations and facilitates modelling of the genetic structure of the modern Serbian population in the wider context of other Balkan people.
The above-mentioned study is the result of the cooperation of the Faculty of Biology of the University of Belgrade (Professor Midrag Grbić, a visiting professor, Professor Željko Tomanović, SASA corresponding member, Professor Dušan Keckarević), Institute of Archaeology (Dr Ilija Mikić, research associate, Dr Miomir Korać, principal research fellows and associates), University Pompeu Fabra, Barcelona (Professor Carles Lalueza-Fox and associates), Harvard University, Harvard Medical School (Professor David Reich and associates).


from the actual lecture :

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This is just some biased Serbian study. They basically think that modern Serbs have been living in Serbia since 600 AD when in fact they didn't. They seem to of expanded into the area relatively late from an area of todays Montenegro/Northern Albania.

Even if there was mixing, there was obviously also a population replacement and this can especially be seen from Y-DNA there was an entire replacement. Not to mention many of the native Balkan populations never entirely disappeared such as Albanian, Aromanian, Romanian, Greek. There was also Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian etc and some other Vlachs. There was also Dalmatian Latin. And some of these people also fused into each other. Not all the native Balkan people fused into Serbs, many fused also into Bulgarian/Macedonian since Bulgarians ruled those lands for hundreds of years before Serbs.




Also some population assimilations into Slavs were pretty late and did not happen until the Ottoman period, such as there were recorded Vlachs in Montenegro, Herzegovina etc until the 15th-14th century, right before Ottoman occupation. Then during the Ottoman period Vlachs in these areas disappear out of the records.


Another thing that is interesting to note is that under Dusan and the Serbian Empire there was a law that forbid Serbs to marry Vlachs.
 
Excellent, thanks for sharing. No surprises
about the appearance of haplogroups brought by Slavs or that ancient Balkan people mixed with Slavs and were not replaced. Complete replacement was an unreasonable idea going back at least to Cavalli-Sforza. It’s also reasonable for Stamatoyannopoulos et al. to have assumed the Slavs came from Poland/Ukraine (duh), and not too unreasonable to use modern northern Slavs as proxies, given that there may have been few if any ancient Slavic samples. Would love to see how close modern Poles and Ukrainians are to the Slavs who came to the Balkans.

Many native Balkan people were not even assimilated into Slavs until the Ottoman period. You can just look at population records in Herzegovina and Montenegro that showed Vlach populations until the 15th-14th century. And in Kosovo there were Vlachs until the final
Ottoman takeover. We also have populations like Aromanians, Romanians, Istro-Romanians, Megleno-Romanians, Albanian, Greek etc.

Also many native Balkan people were never assimilated into Slavs but either fused into each other or they moved somewhere else.

Central Balkans was a battle ground of empires, first Slavs to hold their power there were the Bulgarians then later came the Serbian expansion as they also invaded Albania and knocked at the door of Greece. The autosomal DNA in South Slavs is the result of being in the Balkans for 1500 years and mingling with the natives either through assimilations or intermarriages. No, there wasn't an entire population replacement, there was also mixing, but there was also replacement obviously, replacement of language, culture, Y-DNA etc.
 
In fact, had it not been for Ottoman occupation, Kosovo, Montenegro and Herzegovina would of had huge Vlach populations today since before the Ottoman period, under Serbian Empire, many of the Vlachs never seem to of assimilated but either just lived there or moved somewhere else, reading Serbian scriptures from middle ages, they don't speak much of assimilations but the opposite. Also in Kosovo large Vlach populations were recorded in the 1480's. Only thanks to Ottoman occupation they seem to of entirely disappeared out of the records in these areas either fused into Slavs or Albanians.

Had it not been for Ottoman occupation and with the collapse of the Serbian Empire (Which was collapsing before Ottomans already) demographics and history in the Balkans would of looked possibly entirely different.
 
Their graph suggests J2b-L283 to be bigger than R1b-Z2103 in the Bronze Age. They probably have quite some East Adriatic Bronze Age samples tested. The biggest question is if Cetina are amongst those or these are just Posusje samples again.

Depends. If the grey colour is from L51+ branches or M269+(xZ2103, XL51). Possibly a combination of both. Either way the R1b branches are considerably closer linked from the same Yamnaya related populations, and J2b and J2a are not all that closely related. R1b is the largest group by a fair margin in the Bronze Age.
 
Dardapara was a Thracian toponym though and suffix like -para -dava were typical Thracian/Dacian which meant 'city', 'fortress' etc such as 'Bessapara' and is not really possible in Albanian today. You don't see these kind of toponyms in Illyria.

Beskidy and Carpathian could simply be common Indo-European words, or common Dacian/Thracian and Illyrian, and not neccessarily directly related to Albanian.


EV-13 was found in Iron Age Moldova though. I personally do not trust Matzinger , he makes many false claims and as far as I'm concerned he hasn't provided any compelling evidence for his theories. Especially when he claims that Messapians were supposedly not Illyrians when they clearly were or at least came from Illyria since we also have a J2b2-L83 from Daunians.

He claims for Messapian do not make any sense genetically.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
He claims for Messapian do not make any sense genetically.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

Neither archaeologically. I added on wiki information from a book regarding archaeologically evidence that matches elements from Albania, regarding Apulia and the towns of Lecce etc which wiki says was settled by Greeks and that the Messpians were Greeks, I added information that claims they were from Illyria and some person removed it.

Wikipedia is filled with idiots. There seems to be a connection with the Albanian language and Messapian also.
The town Brindisi seems to be related to Albanian word for 'Horn' = 'Bri' .

Btw, in that other thread and not to take things off topic, you are right that we served the Ottomans when we had too, my point was that other Balkan people did too, there are a lot of nationalistic myths in the Balkans. During the formation of the League of Prizren, it was originally fought to get more rights within the Ottoman Empire. It was not meant to insult you if I got irritated a bit.

They heavily taxed Catholics so many converted to Islam and they even still abused their power on Muslims, as a result even many Muslims revolted against them in the Austrian-Ottoman wars. At least this is my theory. A lot of these things were personal interests possibly.
 
Depends. If the grey colour is from L51+ branches or M269+(xZ2103, XL51). Possibly a combination of both. Either way the R1b branches are considerably closer linked from the same Yamnaya related populations, and J2b and J2a are not all that closely related. R1b is the largest group by a fair margin in the Bronze Age.
R1b is a macro haplogroup. There is no need to lump haplogroups together that are different from one another.
 
It would be great if some of you people here would discuss Albanian history topics in a more appropriate thread.

Thanks in advance.
 
R1b is a macro haplogroup. There is no need to lump haplogroups together that are different from one another.

This would normally be true but the separation of L23 to Z2103 and L51 is just a few centuries. Moreover, the likelihood that both L51+ and Z2103+ are spawned from Yamnaya or at the very least related cultures like early CWC suggests you should be putting that entire R1b group as a single block, or at least 2/3rds of it, rather than making microscopic delineations. M269+ is not a macro haplogroup, it was a singular male population that spread very quickly into 2 dominant groups L51 and Z2103, they are essentially one and the same. The L2+ might be a different group of males, but only because it is derived from BBC who didn't incorporate to the south-east European group of farmers and Iran_Neo migrations out of Anatolia.
 
In one leak a screenshot was taken in a upcoming Y-DNA from Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze, Iron Age, Roman and Medieval times from Balkans.

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Mesolithic Balkans was dominated by I2a and R1b .

Neolithic by G2a

Bronze Age by R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283 and J2a.

Once again, E-V13 appearance just as stated by Viminacium authors appears in Bronze to Iron Age transition, notice how the percentages increases during 0-500, very probably due to sampling bias of cremation/inhumation, when they adopted Christianity the burial rite changed to inhumation. So, i would say that the 0-500 column represent much better the Iron Age rather than the Iron Age column itself. E-V13 is confirmed Eastern Urnfield lineage, officially.

Sincerely, these data are interesting but the number are too tiny and too general (no subregion) of Balkans to permit us to make too much conclusions at this stage.
 
Neither archaeologically. I added on wiki information from a book regarding archaeologically evidence that matches elements from Albania, regarding Apulia and the towns of Lecce etc which wiki says was settled by Greeks and that the Messpians were Greeks, I added information that claims they were from Illyria and some person removed it.

Wikipedia is filled with idiots. There seems to be a connection with the Albanian language and Messapian also.
The town Brindisi seems to be related to Albanian word for 'Horn' = 'Bri' .

Btw, in that other thread and not to take things off topic, you are right that we served the Ottomans when we had too, my point was that other Balkan people did too, there are a lot of nationalistic myths in the Balkans. During the formation of the League of Prizren, it was originally fought to get more rights within the Ottoman Empire. It was not meant to insult you if I got irritated a bit.

They heavily taxed Catholics so many converted to Islam and they even still abused their power on Muslims, as a result even many Muslims revolted against them in the Austrian-Ottoman wars. At least this is my theory. A lot of these things were personal interests possibly.

I agree with Wiki people as you stated, changing data to suit their needs .............I have even seen they change Haplogroup markers ie E-V13 to R1b or R1a ...which even though scientific papers linked below state they are E-V13

In regards to Illyrian as a language..........none exists .............Illyrian tribes where trading on both sides of the adriatic sea from the late bronze-age, trade languages where used

regarding Rome and modern Albania .............the romans occupied the lands from 229BC

 
This is just some biased Serbian study.

The study was conducted at the initiative of Carles Lalueza-Fox (Serb? :unsure:) with the goal to compare the gentics of the central Roman population, with one from the edges of the empire, such as Moesia. Serbian genetics are not the primary focus of this study.

They basically think that modern Serbs have been living in Serbia since 600 AD when in fact they didn't. They seem to of expanded into the area relatively late from an area of todays Montenegro/Northern Albania.

Even if there was mixing, there was obviously also a population replacement and this can especially be seen from Y-DNA there was an entire replacement. Not to mention many of the native Balkan populations never entirely disappeared such as Albanian, Aromanian, Romanian, Greek. There was also Istro-Romanian, Megleno-Romanian etc and some other Vlachs. There was also Dalmatian Latin. And some of these people also fused into each other. Not all the native Balkan people fused into Serbs, many fused also into Bulgarian/Macedonian since Bulgarians ruled those lands for hundreds of years before Serbs.




Also some population assimilations into Slavs were pretty late and did not happen until the Ottoman period, such as there were recorded Vlachs in Montenegro, Herzegovina etc until the 15th-14th century, right before Ottoman occupation. Then during the Ottoman period Vlachs in these areas disappear out of the records.


Another thing that is interesting to note is that under Dusan and the Serbian Empire there was a law that forbid Serbs to marry Vlachs.

while this is more or less true, except the core of early Serbian state was mostly in today's Bosnia&Herzegovina, and not Northern Albania, and I'm sure the scientists involved know this.

But their finding is that some of these 600 AD samples from Serbia were autosomally indistinguishable from the average Serb today, i.e. halfway between North Slavs and South Italians, even if these weren't Serbs, but Vlachs and Bulgarians.
 
The study was conducted at the initiative of Carles Lalueza-Fox (Serb? :unsure:)

No, he is obviously no Serb, but Spanish. That's an international business.

My focus is on two things:
- where are the E-V13 samples from, which region and cultural formation in particular.
- did they sample Thracians, for Serbia especially Basarabi and/or Ferigile.
 
It would be great if some of you people here would discuss Albanian history topics in a more appropriate thread.

Thanks in advance.
Same goes for Serbian "history" topics.
 
My focus is on two things:
- where are the E-V13 samples from, which region and cultural formation in particular.
- did they sample Thracians, for Serbia especially Basarabi and/or Ferigile.
The study seems to primarily focuse on Serbia but as was mentioned by Lalueza-Fox himself it also entails samples from other places such as Croatia etc. No other specifics unfortunately.
 
I agree with Wiki people as you stated, changing data to suit their needs .............I have even seen they change Haplogroup markers ie E-V13 to R1b or R1a ...which even though scientific papers linked below state they are E-V13

In regards to Illyrian as a language..........none exists .............Illyrian tribes where trading on both sides of the adriatic sea from the late bronze-age, trade languages where used

regarding Rome and modern Albania .............the romans occupied the lands from 229BC

Regarding the Latin & Italian languages..................... none exists.................

1000BC, Southern Italy was settled by J2b2 Illyrians long before Italics................... There was even J2b2 Illyrians with Etruscans in Northern Italy................ When the Italics finally met them there.................... they used Illyrian-Messapic trade language on both sides of the Adriatic......................

Regarding Illyrians and modern Italy........... the Illyrians occupied the lands from 1000BC........................
 
The study seems to primarily focuse on Serbia but as was mentioned by Lalueza-Fox himself it also entails samples from other places such as Croatia etc. No other specifics unfortunately.

Edit: with etc. meaning the Albanian, North Macedonian IA samples and so on.

What would Basarabi culture sites in Serbia be? Or are you grouping them with Bosut sites like Zidovar, Bosut Gradina etc.?

Either way I am expecting E1b-V13 to be present in sites clearly influenced by or related to Channeled Ware.
 
Edit: with etc. meaning the Albanian, North Macedonian IA samples and so on.

What would Basarabi culture sites in Serbia be? Or are you grouping them with Bosut sites like Zidovar, Bosut Gradina etc.?

Either way I am expecting E1b-V13 to be present in sites clearly influenced by or related to Channeled Ware.

There isn't a strict border between Bosut, Basarabi and even Ferigile to some extent. Kalakaca is the great unknown, as it might have foreign influence from non-Channelled Ware people and this influenced in turn Bosut and Basarabi to some degree. But even the experts are not always of the same opinion and the good thing about Kalakaca and Basarabi is that they used inhumation more often than the earlier Channelled Ware people. And even if having foreign influences, its unlikely it was a full replacement from non-Channelled Ware groups. Rather from the direction of Bulgaria-Romania some influx did happen after Kalakaca.

In the second section we point to the area of northeastern Serbia where during the Early Iron Age period elements of the Basarabi culture are most clearly distinguished and that, as it seems, are replaced without interruption by the elements of Ferigile group of the Early Iron Age. Large quantity of iron objects including fragments of tools, weapons and jewelry has been found together with Basarabi and Ferigile group pottery in the area of northeastern Serbia, which is abounding in copper and iron ores. Early Iron Age chronology in Serbia, particularly in the south parts of the Pannonian plain and north parts of central Balkans is based to the greatest extent on the stratigraphy of the multi-layered settlement Gradina na Bosutu in Srem (Medović 1978; 1988). In the recently published monograph on the settlement of the Early Iron Age at Bosut 10 habitation horizons in total have been distinguished that are believed to encompass chronologically the entire Early Iron Age (Medović?Medović 2011). he remains of the above ground houses of rectangular ground plan were discovered in all habitation horizons starting with the earliest settlement attributed to the Kalakača phase of the Early Iron Age, through settlements with Basarabi style pottery ending with few late Hallstatt settlements with channeled pottery.

https://www.academia.edu/30554381/B...Contribution_to_the_Early_Iron_Age_Chronology
 
Regarding the Latin & Italian languages..................... none exists.................

1000BC, Southern Italy was settled by J2b2 Illyrians long before Italics................... There was even J2b2 Illyrians with Etruscans in Northern Italy................ When the Italics finally met them there.................... they used Illyrian-Messapic trade language on both sides of the Adriatic......................

Regarding Illyrians and modern Italy........... the Illyrians occupied the lands from 1000BC........................

true, Latin was not on the adriatic sea side at the time ............I do not recall Latin before 700BC

At best we have a Adriatic sea trade language ............with the Liburnians and their fleet ruling the Adriatic sea from the late bronze age to at least 500BC

The Liburnians even took Corfu ( Scheria in bronze-age times ) from the Phaeacians. and eventually lost it to the Corinthians after being there for over 300 years.

According to Strabo (VI, 269), the Liburnians were masters of the island Korkyra (Corfu), until 735 BC, when they left it, under pressure of Corinthian ruler Hersikrates, in a period of Corinthian expansion to South Italy, Sicily and Ionian Sea.
 

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