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Thread: 5 Earliest Known Cities in the world

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    5 Earliest Known Cities in the world

    You can start around 7:40, as I'm sure everyone knows the requirements:

    It starts around 3800 BC. Tied to the movement from the Caucasus south and west with their advanced metallurgy?



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    Brak, that city is new.
    Yes Angela, conveniently close to the Caucasus, and in the same latitude of EEF Catalhuyuk.
    I suspected civilization had to be more northern.

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    I have no idea why anyone would think Brak was "northern", and certainly not Uruk, or Jericho.

    Even Kura Araxes is the Southern Caucasus.

    When these great cities began to be built, the steppe people were still living in yurts, if you're talking about them.



    South of Uruk is Ur of the Chaldees, the city of Abraham.

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    should we now talk about the Brak period instead of Uruk period ?
    Uruk still was the center of that period
    but there was already a city up north before the Uruk expansion
    it makes the nature of this expansion look different

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    should we now talk about the Brak period instead of Uruk period ?
    Uruk still was the center of that period
    but there was already a city up north before the Uruk expansion
    it makes the nature of this expansion look different
    I'm not sure. I have to delve deeper to find out if the following is accurate. I'm more and more skeptical of Wiki:

    "Early settlement[edit]

    The earliest period A, is dated to the proto Halaf culture c. 6500 BC, when a small settlement existed.[13] Many objects dated to that period were discovered including the Halaf pottery.[14] By 5000 BC,[15] Halaf culture transformed into Northern Ubaid,[16] and many Ubaid materials were found in Tell Brak.[17] Excavations and surface survey of the site and its surroundings, unearthed a large platform of patzen bricks that dates to late Ubaid,[note 1][17] and revealed that Tell Brak developed as an urban center slightly earlier than better known cities of southern Mesopotamia, such as Uruk.[19][20]
    The first city[edit]


    Eye figurines from the Eye Temple.

    In southern Mesopotamia, the original Ubaid culture evolved into the Uruk period.[21] The people of the southern Uruk period used military and commercial means to expand the civilization.[22] In Northern Mesopotamia, the post Ubaid period is designated Late Chalcolithic / Northern Uruk period,[23] during which, Tell Brak started to expand.[17]
    Period Brak E witnessed the building of the city's walls,[24] and Tell Brak expansion beyond the mound to form a lower town.[17] By the late 5th millennium BC, Tell Brak reached the size of c. 55 hectares.[25] Area TW of the tell (Archaeologists divided Tell Brak into areas designated with Alphabetic letters.[26] See the map for Tell Brak's areas) revealed the remains of a monumental building with two meters thick walls and a basalt threshold.[27] In front of the building, a sherd paved street was discovered, leading to the northern entrance of the city.[27]
    The city continued to expand during period F, and reached the size of 130 hectares.[28] Four mass graves dating to c. 3800–3600 BC were discovered in the submound, Tell Majnuna, north of the main tell, and they suggest that the process of urbanization was accompanied by internal social stress, and an increase in the organization of warfare.[29] The first half of period F (designated LC3), saw the erection of the Eye Temple,[note 2][28] which was named for the thousands of small alabaster "Eye idols" figurines discovered in it.[note 3][35] Those idols were also found in area TW.[36]
    Interactions with the Mesopotamian south grew during the second half of period F (designated LC4) c. 3600 BC,[37] and an Urukean colony was established in the city.[38][39] With the end of Uruk culture c 3000 BC, Tell Brak's Urukean colony was abandoned and deliberately leveled by its occupants.[40][41] Tell Brak contracted during the following periods H and J, and became limited to the mound.[42] Evidence exists for an interaction with the Mesopotamian south during period H, represented by the existence of materials similar to the ones produced during the southern Jemdet Nasr period.[43] The city remained a small settlement during the Ninevite 5 period, with a small temple and associated sealing activities.[note 4][42]"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea why anyone would think Brak was "northern", and certainly not Uruk, or Jericho.

    Even Kura Araxes is the Southern Caucasus.
    Catalhuyuk is in the Northern part of the Middle East. And Brak is too.
    It's very obvious to many that civilization has northern origins.
    And these remains are the proof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    Catalhuyuk is in the Northern part of the Middle East. And Brak is too.
    It's very obvious to many that civilization has northern origins.
    And these remains are the proof.
    Very interesting. You've now taught me that people who are a combination of Iran Neo and Anatolia Neolithic are "northern" genetically.

    So grateful. I learn something new every day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Very interesting. You've now taught me that people who are a combination of Iran Neo and Anatolia Neolithic are "northern" genetically.
    So grateful. I learn something new every day.
    Don't be ironic, you don't remember the Early European Farmers, that cluster with Europeans?
    Well, Catalhuyuk is full of haplogroups G(also mtDNA K1).
    Also European Cro-Magnon C-V20, funnily enough.
    https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient_...=&ybp=500000,0
    See this link, here it is.

    The EEF are whites indeed, a study that focused on Mesolithic Sweden phenotypes analyzed the Neolithic samples beyond the haplogroups, looking for specific genetic traits.

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    You shouldn't believe everything you see. Make a small research for what he's saying and verify if is correct.

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    Are we totally ignoring the Far East and Southeast Asia? I don't know, I'm asking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Are we totally ignoring the Far East and Southeast Asia? I don't know, I'm asking.
    It's a good question. I had actually looked it up once before, so I had a file on it.

    The oldest Chinese city I ever found was Zhengzhou.

    Zhengzhou is often called China's 8th historical capital. About 3,600 years ago, Zhengzhou was the capital of the Shang Dynasty (1766 BC-1050 BC). During the following dynasties, it served as capital for four times. It is considered to be the cradle of China's civilization. The Shaolin Temple, the birthplace of Shaolin Kung Fu that has been often portrayed in movies and a TV series, is in the mountains nearby.

    For India, it's Varansi.
    The oldest continually inhabited city in India, Varanasi has been a center of religious and cultural activity since the Bronze Age Collapse. It might have been in existence even earlier, since it finds mention in the Rig Veda (c. 1700 – 1100 BC), and recent excavations in nearby sites suggest earlier estimates.

    Even if one wanted to include the Harappan Civilization, that's about 2500 BC.

    I think it's partly a function of the fact that it's a progression from the first farming communities. Agriculture in the Near East is usually dated to around 8300 BC so, say, 10-11,000 years ago.

    I've seen one source, if I remember correctly, placing it around the same time in China, but most sources say it began about 1000 years later in China than in the "Fertile Crescent". The earliest Neolithic village I've seen mentioned for China is 6500 B.C.

    First metallurgy for China I've seen is 4,000 BC., for India 3,000 BC. Strangely, for China it's first found in the far northwestern provinces closest to western Eurasia. In Western Eurasia we're talking 6th millenium B.C. or even earlier.

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    The oldest city I know is Ju county,莒 is a small county in china north by the sea,5000years ago.莒 the name meaning is unknown,mostlikely dongyi language(extinct)

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    @bigsnake,

    I see you've read my answer to your question. It's not customary in your circles to say thank you when someone does you a service?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When these great cities began to be built, the steppe people were still living in yurts
    Many of them were living on wagons, Herodotus even mentioned the Ἁμαξόβιοι which literally means "wagon-dwellers".

    Ulan-IV-kurgan-4-grave-15 is a very old wagon burial (we have an aDNA sample from the person buried there, SA6004). Some of the oldest evidence of wheeled wagons is from the steppe, north of Caucasus - probably that's where wheeled wagons were first invented.

    So the most distant ancestor of my Audi A3 was probably produced in Eastern Europe.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    ^^^
    Dwelling on wagons is also what enabled American pioneers & early settlers to colonize the Wild West so quickly (a few decades):


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Many of them were living on wagons, Herodotus even mentioned the Ἁμαξόβιοι which literally means "wagon-dwellers".

    Ulan-IV-kurgan-4-grave-15 is a very old wagon burial (we have an aDNA sample from the person buried there, SA6004). Some of the oldest evidence of wheeled wagons is from the steppe, north of Caucasus - probably that's where wheeled wagons were first invented.

    So the most distant ancestor of my Audi A3 was probably produced in Eastern Europe.
    You're aware we're talking around 4000 BC for actual, organized cities with irrigation, monumental structures, advanced metallurgy and an administrative class, but large settlements are thousands of years older, yes?

    Why can't people like you just accept that all of civilization for Western Eurasia at least began in the Near East. It just makes people who deny it look uneducated.

    Btw, the American wagon trains were carrying mostly literate products of sophisticated civilizations who fully intended to settle down and build new settlements, yes? They weren't pastoralists like the steppe people, or the Bedouin or the African pastoralists. They didn't want to live like that forever! They hated it; it was just the only way to get to free land with some of their possessions.

    It was similar in one way, however; they wound up wiping out huge numbers of the people whose land they were stealing. Facts are bothersome things for some people.

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