J2a-Z435 from BA collapse

[Mmiikkii]

If you go to the J2 page on this site, you will learn that most of European J2 may have come from the Roman conquests.

The thing is, it descends from a 'recent' clade appeared in historic times, but the subclade in question, Z435, is more recent and comprises a lot of the Euro J2.

Concretely seems to have a TMRCA of 3100 yrs ago, at the beginning of the Iron Age, most likely in Italy.
Or what is the same, after the collapse of almost all the Bronze Age cities, this clade came to central Italy. Centuries later was absorbed into Rome and proved to be a succesful subclade that reached a lot of Europe.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

If you go to the J2 page on this site, you will learn that most of European J2 may have come from the Roman conquests.

The thing is, it descends from a 'recent' clade appeared in historic times, but the subclade in question, Z435, is more recent and comprises a lot of the Euro J2.

Concretely seems to have a TMRCA of 3100 yrs ago, at the beginning of the Iron Age, most likely in Italy.
Or what is the same, after the collapse of almost all the Bronze Age cities, this clade came to central Italy. Centuries later was absorbed into Rome and proved to be a succesful subclade that reached a lot of Europe.

It is very unlikely that the MRCA of J-Z435, who lived in around 1600 BCE, lived in Italy. J-Z435, and by extension J-L70, has it's origins in the Eastern Mediterranean where it is most frequent and diverse.
In Western Europe, it is most likely the result of the Roman period migrations. In Eastern Europe, it's almost exclusively Jewish. These lines don't appear to have even gone through Italy.

 

[J Man]

It is very unlikely that the MRCA of J-Z435, who lived in around 1600 BCE, lived in Italy. J-Z435, and by extension J-L70, has it's origins in the Eastern Mediterranean where it is most frequent and diverse.
In Western Europe, it is most likely the result of the Roman period migrations. In Eastern Europe, it's almost exclusively Jewish. These lines don't appear to have even gone through Italy.

I doubt that most of the J2a-L70 in the Balkans today is of Jewish origin.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

I doubt that most of the J2a-L70 in the Balkans today is of Jewish origin.

I think we're misunderstanding each other, I never said the Balkans - I'm referring to countries such as Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Latvia, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia - the J-L70 in these countries are overwhelmingly Jewish.

The only Jewish J-L70 groups in the Balkans are Sephardic Jews (in Bulgaria) and Romaniote Jews (in Greece). Aside from these two branches, almost all of the J-L70 lines in these regions are not of Jewish origin.
It seems likely that the J-L70 in countries like Albania, Serbia, Bulgaria (non-Jewish) etc... came from Greece.
Based on the distribution of the Ashkenazi Jewish J-L70 branches, they're not Rhineland lineages, and likely came from Byzantine Jews that migrated up the Danube.

 

[Mmiikkii]

In Eastern Europe, it's almost exclusively Jewish. These lines don't appear to have even gone through Italy.

J2 has origins in Turkey, if it's European(Askenazi) Jewish it's very likely that they passed through the Roman Empire, they may even have converted there.

Jews are the result of Jewish makes and NW Mediterránean women. That match was made in the Roman Imperial era.

 

[Juan.delajara]

Hi, What I think is that L70/Z435 were born somewhere on the Aegean (Anatolia or Greece). Their expansion to other geographical areas is related to different period of times, and mainly to Myceaneans, other costal anatolic people, greek (classical and hellenistic periods) and on more recent subclades to romans as well. We still need to know how big was the impact of Magna Graecia to central Italy, what we know until now is that we indeed have some ancient samples on common people that belonged to L70, in central Italy, specifically in the Marche region at the end of the Republican era. I think that part of the expansion, mainly to western Europe, of L70 followed the roman expansion, we still need to know which subclades.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

J2 has origins in Turkey, if it's European(Askenazi) Jewish it's very likely that they passed through the Roman Empire, they may even have converted there.
Jews are the result of Jewish makes and NW Mediterránean women. That match was made in the Roman Imperial era.

Jews did pass through the Roman Empire - we are largely descended from Roman Jewry. However what we see from the two Ashkenazi J-L70 lines is that they're not Rhineland lineages in distribution. What this means is that they're not lineages that migrated from Rome to the Rhineland. They're BAB lineages, so never passed through Italy.

My stance on the Jewish J-L70 branches is they're likely either Judean, non-Judean Levantine, Anatolian, or Greek. Which of these remains to be seen, as each has their own merit. An East Med origin is guaranteed, of course.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

Hi, What I think is that L70/Z435 were born somewhere on the Aegean (Anatolia or Greece). Their expansion to other geographical areas is related to different period of times, and mainly to Myceaneans, other costal anatolic people, greek (classical and hellenistic periods) and on more recent subclades to romans as well. We still need to know how big was the impact of Magna Graecia to central Italy, what we know until now is that we indeed have some ancient samples on common people that belonged to L70, in central Italy, specifically in the Marche region at the end of the Republican era. I think that part of the expansion, mainly to western Europe, of L70 followed the roman expansion, we still need to know which subclades.

Thanks Juan.

 

[Juan.delajara]

Thanks Juan.

Thank You Supreeeme

 

[Mmiikkii]

Jews did pass through the Roman Empire - we are largely descended from Roman Jewry. However what we see from the two Ashkenazi J-L70 lines is that they're not Rhineland lineages in distribution. What this means is that they're not lineages that migrated from Rome to the Rhineland.

I'm not getting it, I never said they're Rhenanian. I just said they were in Italy.

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

I'm not getting it, I never said they're Rhenanian. I just said they were in Italy.

And I'm saying there is very little evidence to suggest that the Jewish J-L70 lines (there are 16 of them) passed through Italy.

 

[Juan.delajara]

Hi, What I think is that L70/Z435 were born somewhere on the Aegean (Anatolia or Greece). Their expansion to other geographical areas is related to different period of times, and mainly to Myceaneans, other costal anatolic people, greek (classical and hellenistic periods) and on more recent subclades to romans as well. We still need to know how big was the impact of Magna Graecia to central Italy, what we know until now is that we indeed have some ancient samples on common people that belonged to L70, in central Italy, specifically in the Marche region at the end of the Republican era. I think that part of the expansion, mainly to western Europe, of L70 followed the roman expansion, we still need to know which subclades.

It seams JL70 was found on an ancient Myceanean. This will confirm its ancient Greek origin and its importance on the Magna Graecia colonies of southern Italy. Let's wait for the last Reich paper to be sure of it, but this would be very important to understand the expansion of some L70's subclades to the West and specially its role as part of the ''roman'' ( magna graecians) clades that expanded on different parts of the roman empire, like modern Spain, Netherlands and Great Britain.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

It seams JL70 was found on an ancient Myceanean. This will confirm its ancient Greek origin and its importance on the Magna Graecia colonies of southern Italy. Let's wait for the last Reich paper to be sure of it, but this would be very important to understand the expansion of some L70's subclades to the West and specially its role as part of the ''roman'' ( magna graecians) clades that expanded on different parts of the roman empire, like modern Spain, Netherlands and Great Britain.

That would be very ironic for me, because my J-L70 relative was married to an mtDNA X2 woman (also found in a Mycenaean female). It is probably purely coincidental, but still kind of neat. If it’s found in a Mycenaean sample, welcome to the greater L70 family.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

It is very unlikely that the MRCA of J-Z435, who lived in around 1600 BCE, lived in Italy. J-Z435, and by extension J-L70, has it's origins in the Eastern Mediterranean where it is most frequent and diverse.
In Western Europe, it is most likely the result of the Roman period migrations. In Eastern Europe, it's almost exclusively Jewish. These lines don't appear to have even gone through Italy.

1000bc in italy and spain has nothing to do with jews. This is clearly a proto roman line or ancient greek line that was picked up by the romans in italy as greeks were already there in the south

Now why this line is also found in jews is another question but arent european jews mostly jewish from mothers side? It is also possible that this line became part of the jews when the romans conquered them. Another method is through a mixing of roman citizen male + jewish female carrying on the jewish culture/religion over several generations which developed a founder effect in a jewish community somewhere in europe before they dispersed throughout europe

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

1000bc in italy and spain has nothing to do with jews. This is clearly a proto roman line or ancient greek line that was picked up by the romans in italy as greeks were already there in the south

Now why this line is also found in jews is another question but arent jews mostly jewish from mothers side? It is also possible that this line became part of the jews when the romans conquered them. Another method is through a mixing of roman citizen male + jewish female carrying on the jewish culture/religion over several generations which developed a founder effect before the dispersal of jews across europe

J-L70 is certainly not Proto-Roman (I assume you mean Italic?). This is a long dead theory that was first put forward on this site. Now that the Mycenaean sample has been publicly leaked, I can now discuss it - J-L70 was found in a Mycenaean sample from a metropolitan site. The sample is dated to J-L70's main growth period. What this tells us is that J-L70 started expanding with the Mycenaeans. This makes sense given J-L70 displaying it's highest frequency and diversity in Greece, Southern Italy, Turkey, and the Levant.

The Romans likely picked up this marker mainly from Magna Grecians and Anatolias (and minorly from the Levant). J-L70 is clearly one of the markers responsible for the shift to Eastern Mediterranean ancestry in Italy.

As for how Jews picked up J-L70, please see my post on Anthrogenica. I made the post with the Mycenaean sample in mind:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-North-Africa&p=834448&viewfull=1#post834448

The only thing I would add to this, is that the recently discovered Arabian branch in J-Y24651 can be used as evidence to support J-FGC21085 becoming Jewish in the Levant.

What you may not be aware of, is that the majority of Jewish J-L70 is actually outside of Europe. J-L70 displays it's highest frequency amongst Tunisian Jews and Bukharan Jews. There are only two Ashkenazi Jewish branches, and 14+ Sephardic and Mizrahi branches. IMO, the Mizrahi branches will have an Iron Age presence in the Levant - can see no other explanation.

To my understanding, conversions in Rome itself were mostly female. This would suggest conversion/NPE in the Near East, or becoming Jewish in Judea itself.

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

J-L70 is certainly not Proto-Roman (I assume you mean Italic?). This is a long dead theory that was first put forward on this site. Now that the Mycenaean sample has been publicly leaked, I can now discuss it - J-L70 was found in a Mycenaean sample from a metropolitan site. The sample is dated to J-L70's main growth period. What this tells us is that J-L70 started expanding with the Mycenaeans. This makes sense given J-L70 displaying it's highest frequency and diversity in Greece, Southern Italy, Turkey, and the Levant.

The Romans likely picked up this marker mainly from Magna Grecians and Anatolias (and minorly from the Levant). J-L70 is clearly one of the markers responsible for the shift to Eastern Mediterranean ancestry in Italy.

As for how Jews picked up J-L70, please see my post on Anthrogenica. I made the post with the Mycenaean sample in mind:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-North-Africa&p=834448&viewfull=1#post834448

The only thing I would add to this, is that the recently discovered Arabian branch in J-Y24651 can be used as evidence to support J-FGC21085 becoming Jewish in the Levant.

What you may not be aware of, is that the majority of Jewish J-L70 is actually outside of Europe. J-L70 displays it's highest frequency amongst Tunisian Jews and Bukharan Jews. There are only two Ashkenazi Jewish branches, and 14+ Sephardic and Mizrahi branches. IMO, the Mizrahi branches will have an Iron Age presence in the Levant - can see no other explanation.

To my understanding, conversions in Rome itself were mostly female. This would suggest conversion/NPE in the Near East, or becoming Jewish in Judea itself.

What i meant by proto roman is the proto romans that came across the ancient greeks that were already in south italy picked this line early on as it is quite frequent in italy. I dont think they picked this up after they moved out of italy and started conquering other territories across the sea, i think they already had it by that point in their ranks from the people they had already conquered in italy

I think it being spread by greeks is unlikely as it is very widespread across europe and also spilling out to places far away like scotland and tunisia -
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...=en&ll=44.05895286857919,4.06392670130761&z=4

 

[SUPREEEEEME]

What i meant by proto roman is the proto romans that came across the ancient greeks that were already in south italy picked this line early on as it is quite frequent in italy. I dont think they picked this up after they moved out of italy and started conquering other territories across the sea, i think they already had it by that point in their ranks from the people they had already conquered in italy
I think it being spread by greeks is unlikely as it is very widespread across europe and also spilling out to places far away like scotland and tunisia -
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...=en&ll=44.05895286857919,4.06392670130761&z=4

What you'll notice is that J-L70 is much more frequent in Southern Italy, while the frequency drops substantially in Central Italy, and even more in Northern Italy. The first instances of J-L70 in Italy were almost certainly from Magna Grecia. Given that Imperial Romans themselves were very heavily Anatolian in ancestry, it is highly likely that J-L70 is one of the lineages that contributed to this demographic change. I even have an existing branch in mind that demonstrates this quite well - although the dates may be slightly off:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z32138/

J-L70 is pretty much confirmed to have been initially spread by ancient Greeks given the upcoming Mycenaean MBA sample. Based on J-L70's current phylogeny, the main growth period is around 1600 BCE - 1100 BCE. This fits J-L70 greatest expansion being through Bronze Age trade with groups like the Mycenaeans. The same level of growth never occurred during the Roman Period. J-L70's presence in places like Central and Western Europe can be almost entirely attributed to the Romans. J-L70 in Tunisia is overwhelmingly Jewish (like Eastern Europe).

 

[Juan.delajara]

What you'll notice is that J-L70 is much more frequent in Southern Italy, while the frequency drops substantially in Central Italy, and even more in Northern Italy. The first instances of J-L70 in Italy were almost certainly from Magna Grecia. Given that Imperial Romans themselves were very heavily Anatolian in ancestry, it is highly likely that J-L70 is one of the lineages that contributed to this demographic change. I even have an existing branch in mind that demonstrates this quite well - although the dates may be slightly off:

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z32138/

J-L70 is pretty much confirmed to have been initially spread by ancient Greeks given the upcoming Mycenaean MBA sample. Based on J-L70's current phylogeny, the main growth period is around 1600 BCE - 1100 BCE. This fits J-L70 greatest expansion being through Bronze Age trade with groups like the Mycenaeans. The same level of growth never occurred during the Roman Period. J-L70's presence in places like Central and Western Europe can be almost entirely attributed to the Romans. J-L70 in Tunisia is overwhelmingly Jewish (like Eastern Europe).

Thanks for your comment Supreeeme, as always well grounded. I agree with your statement, I would like to add that we still don't know when and how deep L70's subclades entered in central Italy. We have an old, late Roman Republican sample L70 in the Marche Region, and a relevant presence of this clade in Marche, southern Lazio and some places in Abruzzo ( mainly Chieti). What we know, until now, is that L70 is one of the few J2's clades that can be found almost on every Italian region, so we could asume that it played an important role on roman colonies, outside Magna Graecia of course, that was the main source of this clade for the italian peninsula. We need to have further news regarding subclades in Italy, with more modern and ancient samples, to understand which of them were indeed expanded by romans, although, as you said, I'm quite sure on western and northern Europe, L70 was mainly expanded by romans ( soldiers, veterans, merchants etc.)

 

[TaktikatEMalet]

What you'll notice is that J-L70 is much more frequent in Southern Italy, while the frequency drops substantially in Central Italy, and even more in Northern Italy. The first instances of J-L70 in Italy were almost certainly from Magna Grecia. Given that Imperial Romans themselves were very heavily Anatolian in ancestry, it is highly likely that J-L70 is one of the lineages that contributed to this demographic change. I even have an existing branch in mind that demonstrates this quite well - although the dates may be slightly off:
https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/J-Z32138/
J-L70 is pretty much confirmed to have been initially spread by ancient Greeks given the upcoming Mycenaean MBA sample. Based on J-L70's current phylogeny, the main growth period is around 1600 BCE - 1100 BCE. This fits J-L70 greatest expansion being through Bronze Age trade with groups like the Mycenaeans. The same level of growth never occurred during the Roman Period. J-L70's presence in places like Central and Western Europe can be almost entirely attributed to the Romans. J-L70 in Tunisia is overwhelmingly Jewish (like Eastern Europe).

Agree with some of this but you have to remember that north italy isnt the same as imperial era north italy - it had a germanic influx during medieval period. J-l70 would have been more common in north italy prior to the germanic invasion

I dont doubt that some j-l70 in east europe could be jewish but within the boundaries of the roman empire in places like bulgaria, serbia etc the j-l70 would be from roman remains instead of jews as we have a result already from medieval serbia. In places close to mycenaean greece like albania and macedonia it could be early greek input but it could also be roman era input - we'll figure it out with more ancient dna

 

[Ralphie Boy]

J-L70 is certainly not Proto-Roman (I assume you mean Italic?). This is a long dead theory that was first put forward on this site. Now that the Mycenaean sample has been publicly leaked, I can now discuss it - J-L70 was found in a Mycenaean sample from a metropolitan site. The sample is dated to J-L70's main growth period. What this tells us is that J-L70 started expanding with the Mycenaeans. This makes sense given J-L70 displaying it's highest frequency and diversity in Greece, Southern Italy, Turkey, and the Levant.

The Romans likely picked up this marker mainly from Magna Grecians and Anatolias (and minorly from the Levant). J-L70 is clearly one of the markers responsible for the shift to Eastern Mediterranean ancestry in Italy.

As for how Jews picked up J-L70, please see my post on Anthrogenica. I made the post with the Mycenaean sample in mind:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...t-North-Africa&p=834448&viewfull=1#post834448

The only thing I would add to this, is that the recently discovered Arabian branch in J-Y24651 can be used as evidence to support J-FGC21085 becoming Jewish in the Levant.

What you may not be aware of, is that the majority of Jewish J-L70 is actually outside of Europe. J-L70 displays it's highest frequency amongst Tunisian Jews and Bukharan Jews. There are only two Ashkenazi Jewish branches, and 14+ Sephardic and Mizrahi branches. IMO, the Mizrahi branches will have an Iron Age presence in the Levant - can see no other explanation.

To my understanding, conversions in Rome itself were mostly female. This would suggest conversion/NPE in the Near East, or becoming Jewish in Judea itself.

It looks like the Mycenaean J-L70 is not from the Lazaridis Southern Arc paper. Is there another upcoming paper with this sample? Thanks.