Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 204

Thread: Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory)

  1. #26
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    250


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    So what? Italics also emerged around that time, but no one says that Latins were invaders and not natives.



    I was looking for your GEDmatch results (Eurogenes K36, Eurogenes K13 and MDLP K23b), I saw few from Apulia. Where exactly are you from? By the way, I am Ajeje Brazorf from Anthrogenica, but I also lurk here occasionally.



    You don't need a paper to state that 2+2=4.
    The Sarno paper had some issues, like that bit where the authors inferred post-neolithic Levantine ancestry from their ADMIXTURE, but the red component that was labelled "near eastern" because it peaked in Yemenis shows up in considerable amounts (higher than in the Italian samples) in Anatolia_neolithic and EEF and also north Europe_BA; the problem, as far as I see it, lies in the fact that they took the component peaking in Sardinians as a proxy for EEF, which is actually imperfect since Sardinians have also not trivial WHG, so Anatolia_neolithic and EEF are modelled as having something more basal compared to Sardinians to compensate- that is the yemeni/natufian-like component. (https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf supplementary pag 4)

  2. #27
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Lazaridis does have a Marathon sample that is used to model the Aegean islands, that has a shift towards the Levant. So I do think there is some slightly more admixture there. We have to wait and see how that jives with the current data. Nevertheless, I see from my model ABA is the dominate component. It is also likely that ABA+Iberomaurusian could be partly influence by some near eastern ancestry. However, you cannot model near easterners with ABA + Iberomaurusian, the fit is terrible.

    In fact the chart I posted with Europeans, Western Jews, and the Uralics has a very good fit, but drops in goodness significantly for the middle eastern countries.

    All in all, we need those key samples.
    @Er Monnezza

    Take a look, some of the Natufian-like ancestry may have been present among Aegean Islanders, considering what we know about the "Roman_Greek" sample from Marathon. My model shows that something Aegean Islander-like is among southern Italians. We don't know exactly how much Levantine is in the Roman_Greek. but if it is indeed similar to Anatolia_BA, which the model seems to like for modern Aegean Islanders; than it must not be much, if ABA is only 5% "Levantine Farmer". So we are talking about a small percent of a minority component.

  3. #28
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    So what? Italics also emerged around that time, but no one says that Latins were invaders and not natives.



    I was looking for your GEDmatch results (Eurogenes K36, Eurogenes K13 and MDLP K23b), I saw few from Apulia. Where exactly are you from? By the way, I am Ajeje Brazorf from Anthrogenica, but I also lurk here occasionally.



    You don't need a paper to state that 2+2=4.
    If you are not an Italian citizen, take down that Italian flag. Am I clear?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  4. #29
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Ancient genetic heritage of Southern Italian populations

    Since present-day patterns of genetic variation reflect both local dynamics of differentiation and the ancestral population history, in order to provide a temporal overview on the ancestral genetic legacy of analyzed Southern Italian groups we finally compared the genetic landscape defined by modern populations with a large panel of ancient DNA samples extracted from the literature and timewise spanning from the Mesolithic to the Iron Age (Suppl. Table S7).
    Consistently with previous results3,27, the PCA performed by projecting ancient samples onto the modern genetic variation reveals specific patterns of population relationships (Suppl. Figure S8). In fact, all the Southern Italian groups, besides showing a general high affinity with Anatolian and European Neolithic farmers, cluster also closely with the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian and Aegean (Minoan and Mycenaean) populations. Differences in affinity patterns were formally tested with the outgroup-f3 statistic measuring the extent of shared drift between modern Italian groups and the main ancient genetic components represented by Western European Hunter-Gatherers (WHG), Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers (EHG), Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers (CHG), Anatolian Neolithic farmers (AN) and Pontic-Steppe Yamnaya (EMBA). Overall Sardinia shows the highest levels of shared drift with samples of Neolithic-related ancestry compared to Northern and Southern Italy. Both Sardinians and Northern Italians show higher affinity to WHG than Southern Italians, who instead appear more affected by CHG-related groups. On the other hand, Yamnaya Steppe and EHG share more affinity to North Italy than to both Southern Italians and Sardinians (Suppl. Figure S9). In addition, qpGraph-based phylogenies consistently recapitulate the observed genetic patterns, with Sardinians showing a good fit to a two-way mixture model between populations representing Early European Farmers and West European Hunter-Gatherers (Suppl. Figure S10a), and North Italy instead achieving a successful fit to a graph model with an additional admixture event from an EHG-related lineage (Suppl. Figure S10b). Interestingly, when fitting present-day Southern Italian populations into the tested qpGraph models we find them compatible with an additional contribute that, differently from Northern Italy, does not originate from an EHG-related source but instead from a CHG-related lineage (Suppl. Figure S10c). This fits to the data in the sense that there are no f-statistics more than |Z| > 3 different between model and expectation.

    Finally, to better characterize the ancestral composition of Southern Italian populations, we inferred their mixture proportions with respect to a four-population model of admixture including all the above-mentioned WHG, Neolithic, CHG/Iran_N and Steppe-related main sources, using qpAdm. All Italian populations were successfully modeled as characterized by a relatively high amount of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, with the major contribution observed in Sardinians (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8). The remaining ancestries were assigned to a lower WHG contribution and to differential influences of Steppe_EMBA and CHG/Iran_N in the profiles of Northern and Southern Italians, respectively (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8). In fact, while Steppe ancestry is greater in North Italy (~ 27%), the Iran_N/CHG-related source is more present in South Italy with the highest values (~ 29%) observed in the populations from the Aspromonte area.

    Genetic history of Calabrian Greeks reveals ancient events and long term isolation in the Aspromonte area of Southern Italy | Scientific Reports (nature.com)
    Sarno et al. 2021

  5. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Italics were invaders, because there were neolithic and copper age populations that lived there before them. The Latins are a result of those invaders' offspring. The Proto-Greeks were invaders too in Greece. But that misses the point of what I am saying. South Italy was already densely populated by farmer populations, why do you discount these people?
    Neolithic and Copper Age populations were invaders, because there were hunter-gatherers that lived there before them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I'm not going to give that out, but I have shared my results plenty on this website. My family comes from the region of Bari, and if you look at the charts, I am included with the samples.
    All right, that's your choice. I am half from Campania and half from Lucania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    You are referring to Sarno et al. 2017 that used simulated fake populations? Why not cite Sarno et al. 2022 that actually lends support to my theory, and used actual aDNA?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefania Sarno, 2021
    Comparisons with modern and ancient populations highlighted ancient, long-lasting genetic links with Eastern Mediterranean and Caucasian/Near-Eastern groups as ancestral sources of Southern Italians.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    The Sarno paper had some issues, like that bit where the authors inferred post-neolithic Levantine ancestry from their ADMIXTURE, but the red component that was labelled "near eastern" because it peaked in Yemenis shows up in considerable amounts (higher than in the Italian samples) in Anatolia_neolithic and EEF and also north Europe_BA; the problem, as far as I see it, lies in the fact that they took the component peaking in Sardinians as a proxy for EEF, which is actually imperfect since Sardinians have also not trivial WHG, so Anatolia_neolithic and EEF are modelled as having something more basal compared to Sardinians to compensate- that is the yemeni/natufian-like component.
    What many people here do not understand is that ALL papers have problems and make outlandish claims. Just because a paper states that Sicilians are 40% Morocco_LN or that Sardinians are 15% Iran_N or that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken in Iran does not automatically make these claims as true. Geneticists are the first to make erroneous claims, but many put them on a pedestal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    If you are not an Italian citizen, take down that Italian flag. Am I clear?
    I was born in Italy and have lived here all my life.

  6. #31
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    250


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    What many people here do not understand is that ALL papers have problems and make outlandish claims. Just because a paper states that Sicilians are 40% Morocco_LN or that Sardinians are 15% Iran_N or that Proto-Indo-European was first spoken in Iran does not automatically make these claims as true. Geneticists are the first to make erroneous claims, but many put them on a pedestal.
    Yes, some genetists make mistakes, but for the matter at hand the Sarno paper made a claim- that they spotted Levantine ancestry in south Italians- based on a mistake, since the methodology is obviously wrong and by strict logic they would also need to infer some direct Natufian ancestry in sintashta, for example, so it is inconsequential to bring this paper up, then say that "genetists make mistakes, let's not delve on such a technicality ", or to imply that since this one paper has this mistake, then we are inconsistent in bringing up other papers that go against your models, since it is a matter of overall converging results. Some genetists may make mistakes, but it is really hard that the consensus up to now has been so blind to the data that genetists have not spotted a very consistent Levantine admixture in south Italians (ranging at least in the double digits), which is your thesis.

    Furthermore, I have issues with G25: where there hell are many samples not taken from the available official studies from? Who gathered them and who was sampled? These questions start to have a bearing when one sees really wild results from individuals labelled as native to an area.

  7. #32
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,533

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    i believe that the only southern Italians where Sicilian Italic tribes

    the rest of Italy ( except the north of Italy ....that is north of the Po river ) where central italic tribes....be these Etruscans, Latins or the more numerous Umbri tribes and sub-tribes ( sabines, Sabellics, Samnites, Lucanians, Brutti etc etc ) ....................they ruled from the Po river to the toe of Italy ...............we see Illyrians in Italy from 1000BC and Greeks from 730BC.

    So, the bulk of Italy is made up of Central Italians

    that is what I was always taught and see no reason to change
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  8. #33
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    A couple of points. Regarding the Morroco_Late Neolithic being used in the Fernandes et al 2020 paper, that does appear questionable. However, when you consider that Morroco_Late Neolithic is overwhelmingly Minoan or Mycenean like and heavy EEF ancestry, the modeling in Marcus et al 2020 (Figure 4) more accurately models Modern Sicilian populations and approximates North African admixture documented In Raveane et al 2019 (Figure 2A) and similar, albeit maybe lower than the 4.6% documented in Sazzini et al 2016. Why the Morroco_LateNeolithic sample was used is still kind of puzzling. But my guess is the number of samples from that period were not as large as it is now. For example, the Neolithic samples from Antonio et al 2019 and the ones just published in 2022 from Sicily itself (Yu et al 2022) were not available.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6


    As for Italic tribes in Sicily, the Siculi were the dominate one, but also there would be Morgetes, Ausones, and also Campanians (Mamertines) who were military mercenaries fighting in Sicily before the 1st Punic war broke out (the rival cities of Syracuse of Messina I think it was) but by the 300BC Campania and much of Southern Italy was now part of the Roman Republic and war broke out between Rome and Carthage, the Romans already had allied forces in Sicily, who had already cut the Island in half driving down from Messina To Gela in Caltanissetta (which for WW2 History fans is where General Patton's USA 7th Army forces would land in Summer of 1943).

    Of course the origins of the Sicani (Perhaps West Mediterranean as far a Iberia) and Elymians is still up to debate, evidence points to the Elymians being also an Italic tribe or related to the ancient Ligures based on linguistic evidence (DNA evidence not available yet to confirm that) which seems to be in line with what the Ancient historians wrote.

  9. #34
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    I was born in Italy and have lived here all my life.
    I see, but your name is Ajeje Brazorf, or you just used that name to hide your Italian identity while on anthrogenica? Since you're so fond of looking up people's info, maybe I should look up "your" posts on anthrogenica. I wonder how many would be about, let's see, perhaps Albanian ancestors? Or, some other Balkan group, or maybe, I have it, Portuguese/Portuguese islander or other Iberian related tweets? You know, some, let's see, what was the latest? Portuguese Princess bit the dust long ago, but maybe Portuguese/Polish on one side and Sicilian on the other? Was that the last one?

    How incredibly pathetic. Trust me, if I find that's the case, this sock account will be burned too.

    Whatever, there's nothing to learn from you so you're joining the ignore list.

  10. #35
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    @Er Monnezza,
    My model has Anatolia_BA. That's mostly Anatolian_N, about a quarter CHG and 5% levant farmers, so how does that violate Sarno? Even Minoan is 15% CHG + the rest Anatolian_N, that is also two "near eastern" ultimate source populations, so what is the hang up?

  11. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    27-08-20
    Posts
    351

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z17107

    Country: Albania



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I see, but your name is Ajeje Brazorf, or you just used that name to hide your Italian identity while on anthrogenica? Since you're so fond of looking up people's info, maybe I should look up "your" posts on anthrogenica. I wonder how many would be about, let's see, perhaps Albanian ancestors? Or, some other Balkan group, or maybe, I have it, Portuguese/Portuguese islander or other Iberian related tweets? You know, some, let's see, what was the latest? Portuguese Princess bit the dust long ago, but maybe Portuguese/Polish on one side and Sicilian on the other? Was that the last one?

    How incredibly pathetic. Trust me, if I find that's the case, this sock account will be burned too.

    Whatever, there's nothing to learn from you so you're joining the ignore list.
    Ajeje Brazorf is from an Italian comedy. I remember watching it as a kid. I don't think whoever uses it is trying to hide his Italian identity and I've never seen Ajeje getting involved in Albanian topics/discussions.

  12. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I see, but your name is Ajeje Brazorf, or you just used that name to hide your Italian identity while on anthrogenica?
    I don't understand what you are talking about. I have never felt the need to lie about my Italian origins, why should I after all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Since you're so fond of looking up people's info, maybe I should look up "your" posts on anthrogenica. I wonder how many would be about, let's see, perhaps Albanian ancestors? Or, some other Balkan group, or maybe, I have it, Portuguese/Portuguese islander or other Iberian related tweets? You know, some, let's see, what was the latest? Portuguese Princess bit the dust long ago, but maybe Portuguese/Polish on one side and Sicilian on the other?
    Is it so scandalous to visit users' profiles? Go ahead if you wish. I'll save you the trouble, I have no reason to say I am those ethnic groups you listed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Was that the last one?
    Oreo_cookie, that name particularly stuck with me HAHA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How incredibly pathetic. Trust me, if I find that's the case, this sock account will be burned too.
    With all due respect, I find this paranoid attitude of yours about seeing trolls and fake accounts everywhere far more pathetic. If you are really interested in Sikeliot you can find him safely on Reddit under the username OddGuidance907. He has abandoned anthroforas for years now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Whatever, there's nothing to learn from you so you're joining the ignore list.
    Heck, I'm not going to sleep tonight...

  13. #38
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Ajeje Brazorf is from an Italian comedy. I remember watching it as a kid. I don't think whoever uses it is trying to hide his Italian identity and I've never seen Ajeje getting involved in Albanian topics/discussions.
    I know who "he" was, and I'm pretty sure I know why the name was adopted, but no matter.

    I was also pretty sure he's not Albanian, but nice to have it confirmed.

  14. #39
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    @Er Monnezza,
    My model has Anatolia_BA. That's mostly Anatolian_N, about a quarter CHG and 5% levant farmers, so how does that violate Sarno? Even Minoan is 15% CHG + the rest Anatolian_N, that is also two "near eastern" ultimate source populations, so what is the hang up?
    No response, good. Because my theory is better thought out, coincides with mainstream papers on the topic, and is yield from 1000s of hours of analysis. I've personally downloaded and processed those samples myself; thousands of them. I am more informed on the pertinent data and nuances. I remember arguing with you on anthrogenica, I was Fourilegge. I'm happy you're here so I can point out how wrong you were/are. This time I won't be shutdown and banned by imbecile moderators or a zerg rush of low-IQ posters, and shouted down in their thuggish ignorance. My theory is Iron-clade, as I have demonstrated.

  15. #40
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-10-21
    Posts
    124


    Ethnic group
    Italian (tuscan)
    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    After the last paper from Raveane, the idea of a natufian influence on Southern Italy has been definitely disproved from a genetic standpoint, assuming it ever had any archeological or historical sense. Levantine ancestry was found throughout the entire empire in the imperial era, before disappearing after the collapse of the Roman urban civilization, so I don't understand why Southern Italy should have experienced a different phenomenon.
    The aegean connection highlighted by Raveane, on the contrary, make perfect sense even from an archeological and historical point of view, since Southern Italy was where italic and Greek cultures met.

  16. #41
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    250


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No response, good. Because my theory is better thought out, coincides with mainstream papers on the topic, and is yield from 1000s of hours of analysis. I've personally downloaded and processed those samples myself; thousands of them. I am more informed on the pertinent data and nuances. I remember arguing with you on anthrogenica, I was Fourilegge. I'm happy you're here so I can point out how wrong you were/are. This time I won't be shutdown and banned by imbecile moderators or a zerg rush of low-IQ posters, and shouted down in their thuggish ignorance. My theory is Iron-clade, as I have demonstrated.
    In all honesty I do not think it is a good idea to declare gulty by association Er Monnezza because he is more active on Anthrogenica; honestly I do not find such tribalistic reasoning really well placed, though Anthrogenica is full of compulsive liars, but it is no use to adopt the same thuggish tactic.

  17. #42
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No response, good. Because my theory is better thought out, coincides with mainstream papers on the topic, and is yield from 1000s of hours of analysis. I've personally downloaded and processed those samples myself; thousands of them. I am more informed on the pertinent data and nuances. I remember arguing with you on anthrogenica, I was Fourilegge. I'm happy you're here so I can point out how wrong you were/are. This time I won't be shutdown and banned by imbecile moderators or a zerg rush of low-IQ posters, and shouted down in their thuggish ignorance. My theory is Iron-clade, as I have demonstrated.
    You have not received an answer because this is already the third time I have explained why Anatolia cannot be the sole source of the eastern ancestry of southern Italians. Look at Levant_PPNB, Campania has almost the same levels as central Anatolia, and the Rome_Imperial average has even more.

    Sample TUR_Barcin_N GEO_CHG Levant_PPNB IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N RUS_Samara_HG
    ITA_Rome_Imperial 47,3 13,8 19 11,2 8,7
    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA 54,8 17,2 13,8 14,2 0
    Italian_Campania 53,5 10,5 12,9 9 14,1
    TUR_Isparta_EBA 61,4 16,7 8,1 13,8 0

  18. #43
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    You have not received an answer because this is already the third time I have explained why Anatolia cannot be the sole source of the eastern ancestry of southern Italians. Look at Levant_PPNB, Campania has almost the same levels as central Anatolia, and the Rome_Imperial average has even more.

    Sample TUR_Barcin_N GEO_CHG Levant_PPNB IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N RUS_Samara_HG
    ITA_Rome_Imperial 47,3 13,8 19 11,2 8,7
    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA 54,8 17,2 13,8 14,2 0
    Italian_Campania 53,5 10,5 12,9 9 14,1
    TUR_Isparta_EBA 61,4 16,7 8,1 13,8 0
    Oh lord, Imperial Roman. That's not even a legitimate construct. There is C5 and C4. The study separated them.

    Natufian is not "Eastern".... I already explained that to you. Natufian is Anatolia_N + Taforalt.

    Anatolia_ChL and Anatolia_BA are in fact mixed with CHG, as is Minoan. They are more "eastern".

    That's definitely more than the third time I have explained that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Oh lord, Imperial Roman. That's not even a legitimate construct. There is C5 and C4. The study separated them.
    Ah now I remember, I told you that and you said it was over complicated. What is overcomplicated? Following what the data actually shows?

  19. #44
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-11-19
    Posts
    250


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    You have not received an answer because this is already the third time I have explained why Anatolia cannot be the sole source of the eastern ancestry of southern Italians. Look at Levant_PPNB, Campania has almost the same levels as central Anatolia, and the Rome_Imperial average has even more.

    Sample TUR_Barcin_N GEO_CHG Levant_PPNB IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N RUS_Samara_HG
    ITA_Rome_Imperial 47,3 13,8 19 11,2 8,7
    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA 54,8 17,2 13,8 14,2 0
    Italian_Campania 53,5 10,5 12,9 9 14,1
    TUR_Isparta_EBA 61,4 16,7 8,1 13,8 0
    Could you provide evidence that the G25 samples are legit? Where are they from? Are they from official studies? I remember that there were many samples from unofficial samplings, such that Davidsky once took a look at the list and expunged some.
    not only for Italians but many modern samples in general (for Italians I recall he took out samples taken by Sizzi's collection).

    You see, the thing is that in the official papers south Italians don't get such results, which brings me to suspect there's something wrong with G25 ones, and the history of the likes of Sikeliot also shows that there are individuals wanting for some reasons to pass individuals that aren't ethnically Italian as ethnically Italian.

  20. #45
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Oh lord, Imperial Roman. That's not even a legitimate construct. There is C5 and C4. The study separated them.
    I am well aware that they are divided into clusters, but it does not change one iota of what I argued before, which is that they always score too much Levant_PPN to only have Anatolian origins.

    It won't let me post links, so I'll leave the name of the PCA on imgur here: 5JTg8wB.png

    Individuals

    Code:
    1:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR37,0.126344,0.151314,0.061094,0.010982,0.059088,-0.008088,0.00893,-0.000231,0.033542,0.039181,-0.004547,0.01109,-0.015461,-0.022432,0.006786,0.015911,0.02047,-0.000887,-0.005279,0.011881,0.016097,-0.004081,-0.006286,-0.008555,-0.005389
    1:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR116,0.126344,0.139128,0.053551,0.020026,0.044008,0.001394,0.00047,0.007154,0.01943,0.01877,0.000812,0.006444,-0.014123,-0.009496,0.008822,0.004906,-0.001825,-0.002154,0,-0.003752,0.003494,0.002844,-0.005793,0.002048,0.00455
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR38,0.102441,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR39,0.111547,0.142174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR40,0.105855,0.151314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR41,0.095611,0.139128,-0.036204,-0.076551,0.004924,-0.026216,-0.00282,-0.005769,0.002863,0.023508,0.003248,-0.001199,0.001635,0.004404,-0.006379,0.000796,0.002347,-0.003294,-0.001634,-0.005503,-0.005989,0.000866,0.00037,-0.001205,0.003952
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR43,0.111547,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.067184,0.003693,-0.025379,0.00423,-0.006,-0.007976,0.029704,0.003248,0.011839,-0.014717,0.006881,-0.017101,-0.000663,0.017341,0.003167,0.005028,-0.000625,-0.010981,0.010881,-0.003204,0.010001,-0.00012
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR44,0.117238,0.167562,-0.028284,-0.070737,0.004616,-0.019522,0.001175,-0.006692,-0.003886,0.034807,0.006333,0.008243,-0.013379,0.001651,-0.009229,-0.004508,0.017211,-0.00038,-0.003268,-0.007003,-0.000873,0.000618,0.001479,0.008314,0.001437
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR66,0.111547,0.158423,-0.033187,-0.06783,0.002154,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.002538,-0.013703,0.025331,0.012991,-0.004196,-0.001041,0.00523,-0.022937,-0.014983,-0.005867,0.000507,0.004902,-0.015257,-0.005241,0.00272,-0.003451,0.00253,0.000958
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR75,0.099026,0.153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR78,0.113823,0.157407,-0.031301,-0.079458,0.002154,-0.03012,-0.000705,-0.007846,-0.007772,0.019317,0.002436,0.005095,-0.009366,0.008395,-0.013436,-0.017369,-0.002217,0.000253,0.010936,-0.006503,-0.007237,-0.000989,-0.006286,-0.000482,0.005389
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR81,0.108132,0.15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR115,0.105855,0.145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR123,0.10927,0.146236,-0.032432,-0.056202,0.008617,-0.030957,0.009635,-0.007615,-0.011862,0.025331,0.007307,0.006444,-0.007284,-0.000413,-0.012486,0.009944,0.015385,-0.005068,-0.004148,-0.010505,0.000499,0.003586,-0.004807,0.001807,0.001197
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR126,0.101303,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR128,0.118376,0.150298,-0.033187,-0.052326,-0.006463,-0.022311,0.001175,-0.011538,-0.018612,0.018953,0.005034,0.006294,-0.007433,0.014588,-0.019137,-0.012994,-0.007171,0.004561,0.003897,-0.013256,-0.003244,0.000618,0.005423,-0.000361,-0.008622
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1543,0.09675,0.141159,-0.026021,-0.063308,0.007078,-0.016455,-0.00047,-0.007154,0.002863,0.022233,0.009094,0.001199,-0.004162,-0.001514,-0.003529,-0.003182,-0.010691,0.00266,-0.006411,-0.009129,-0.004118,-0.006059,-0.006779,-0.006507,0.000239
    2:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1545,0.105855,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR73,0.088782,0.153345,-0.028661,-0.066215,0.000308,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.005769,0.006749,0.025695,0.002436,-0.001349,0.0055,-0.00812,-0.002443,0.013657,0.014733,-0.003927,-0.002011,0.006628,-0.008984,-0.001607,-0.003697,0.003374,0.005987
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR76,0.095611,0.142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
    3:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
    4:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR45,0.088782,0.151314,-0.026776,-0.064923,0.020619,-0.029005,-0.005405,0.000462,0.015953,0.023508,-0.003573,0.001948,-0.001635,0.00055,-0.010858,-0.017634,-0.011995,-0.004434,-0.003017,-0.012506,-0.007986,-0.003586,-0.003574,-0.001084,0.008023
    4:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR80,0.068294,0.157407,-0.013576,-0.066861,0.020004,-0.031794,-0.0094,-0.003461,0.032928,0.023326,-0.000487,0.002398,0.00669,-0.008808,-0.001764,-0.004773,-0.00691,-0.004181,-0.018729,-0.007504,-0.006114,-0.013354,0.010599,-0.004097,0
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR47,0.106994,0.148267,-0.006788,-0.046189,0.008617,-0.020359,-0.001175,-0.009692,0.005318,0.023326,0.002273,0.009142,-0.004757,-0.010046,-0.002036,0.002121,0.007562,-0.000633,-0.003771,0.002751,-0.005865,0.002349,0.005546,-0.005181,-0.000958
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR49,0.110408,0.156392,-0.00528,-0.040052,0.016618,-0.020917,0.00376,-0.003461,-0.00225,0.017677,0.004384,0.006594,-0.01219,0.002477,-0.010315,0.002387,0.004042,-0.002154,0.00352,-0.004502,0.002496,-0.000124,0.000739,-0.005904,0.003233
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR50,0.100164,0.150298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.005092,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR51,0.112685,0.148267,-0.02225,-0.048127,0.014464,-0.029284,0.000235,-0.011999,0.003272,0.024237,0.002273,0.003597,-0.007284,-0.001789,-0.00475,-0.007558,-0.011474,0.004054,0.011313,-0.003877,0.001747,0.006554,0.003574,0.005784,-0.003952
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR113,0.122929,0.162485,-0.007542,-0.041021,0.018465,-0.017291,-0.00846,-0.008077,0.015339,0.030433,-0.000325,0.004496,-0.008771,-0.007294,-0.005157,-0.016176,-0.011474,-0.005701,0.007793,-0.017133,0.00025,-0.002102,0.001479,-0.011206,-0.002036
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR114,0.112685,0.146236,-0.018102,-0.051357,0.007078,-0.010319,-0.005405,-0.010384,0.000614,0.008565,-0.00341,0.01094,-0.003865,0.001376,-0.006107,-0.013789,-0.009648,0.005194,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.004367,0.006677,0.006532,0.003976,-0.000239
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR125,0.117238,0.152329,-0.008297,-0.048127,0.008925,-0.011156,0.0047,-0.006461,-0.000614,0.01877,0.002111,0.000749,-0.015312,-0.011698,-0.00855,0.01127,0.018515,0.006714,0.004274,0.000875,0.003494,0.002349,-0.006902,-0.003494,0.001317
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR131,0.111547,0.150298,-0.004148,-0.046512,0.006155,-0.004462,-0.008225,-0.004154,0.007567,0.018406,0.001299,0.001798,-0.002527,-0.006055,-0.005293,0.002121,0.007171,0.004307,0.002891,-0.010755,0.000374,0.008656,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.001437
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR436,0.119514,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.044897,0.00954,-0.015897,-0.00376,-0.008307,0.001841,0.014214,0.003573,0.005695,-0.004162,-0.011285,-0.011536,0.00716,0.02021,0,0.00352,0.001626,-0.000873,0.010881,0.001109,0.003615,-0.000479
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR835,0.102441,0.14319,-0.006411,-0.038114,0.017849,-0.017012,-0.010575,0.002077,0.001023,0.019135,0.006008,0.001199,-0.009217,-0.004542,-0.008822,0.009679,0.003912,0.003801,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004492,-0.005193,0.005176,-0.001928,-0.001197
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR836,0.119514,0.158423,-0.007542,-0.037791,0.011387,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.009692,-0.007567,0.024966,0,-0.004496,-0.014717,-0.002202,-0.014386,-0.001591,-0.003781,-0.007728,0.013073,-0.004752,-0.004866,0.011252,-0.000493,-0.00482,-0.002874
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1544,0.111547,0.140143,-0.012445,-0.039406,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.003995,-0.001385,0.005931,0.012939,0.010555,-0.002398,-0.006392,-0.001101,-0.001493,-0.003845,0.002999,0.0019,0.004022,-0.005002,0.004243,0.007296,-0.001602,-0.006507,-0.001676
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1548,0.112685,0.146236,-0.012822,-0.044574,-0.004616,-0.021196,0.004935,0.000231,-0.005113,0.012392,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.000892,-0.003303,-0.006515,0.006364,-0.000261,0.007475,0.002137,-0.00988,-0.013726,0.004822,0.008627,0.006025,-0.005149
    5:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1549,0.108132,0.146236,-0.000377,-0.026486,0.017234,-0.01506,0.005405,-0.006461,0.010226,0.006378,0.003085,-0.009891,0.002379,-0.001514,0.004072,0.003713,-0.00326,0.004561,0.003394,0.003001,-0.000499,0.010758,-0.000863,0.007109,0.005269
    6:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
    6:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
    6:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR1551,0.100164,0.142174,-0.058454,-0.066861,-0.023081,-0.013387,0.00141,0.002308,-0.026793,0.000729,0.009094,0.003897,-0.015163,0.007432,0.000679,-0.02254,-0.009779,0.002154,0.002011,0.012131,0.007237,0.008408,-0.000739,-0.004699,0.00479
    7:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR69,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185
    8:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR111,0.12862,0.157407,0.013953,-0.033592,0.024004,-0.005578,0.0047,0.000692,-0.000205,0.038634,-0.001461,0.009591,-0.012042,-0.005505,-0.010043,0.009812,0.009909,-0.005574,0.011187,0.006128,-0.008735,-0.00643,-0.004437,-0.000964,0.008263
    9:ITA_Rome_Imperial_RMPR132,0.028456,0.139128,-0.009051,-0.07429,0.026159,-0.029562,-0.017391,0.003461,0.050517,0.03098,0.004547,-0.001798,0.003865,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.011535,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.025768,-0.003126,-0.008984,-0.017435,0.011339,-0.011086,0.005389
    Average of clusters

    Code:
    1,0.126344,0.145221,0.0573225,0.015504,0.051548,-0.003347,0.0047,0.0034615,0.026486,0.0289755,-0.0018675,0.008767,-0.014792,-0.015964,0.007804,0.0104085,0.0093225,-0.0015205,-0.0026395,0.0040645,0.0097955,-0.0006185,-0.0060395,-0.0032535,-0.0004195
    2,0.10762606,0.15137033,-0.032138944,-0.067901778,0.00011966667,-0.023922611,0.001175,-0.0056793333,-0.0067947778,0.024004611,0.0056023889,0.0033636667,-0.0060207778,0.0032112222,-0.013308222,-0.0048616667,0.0033610556,0.00021111111,0.0020671111,-0.0061417222,-0.0036323889,0.0017860556,-0.0028347778,0.0014258889,0.000019944444
    3,0.087643667,0.14894433,-0.047265833,-0.077896833,-0.010001667,-0.024170667,-0.005875,-0.0074996667,0.0079425,0.012300833,0.0029231667,-0.001299,0.0079036667,-0.003624,-0.0061526667,0.0062096667,0.010669833,-0.000084333333,-0.0023673333,0.0040643333,-0.0043881667,0.005482,-0.00041083333,0.00032116667,-0.00085816667
    4,0.078538,0.1543605,-0.020176,-0.065892,0.0203115,-0.0303995,-0.0074025,-0.0014995,0.0244405,0.023417,-0.00203,0.002173,0.0025275,-0.004129,-0.006311,-0.0112035,-0.0094525,-0.0043075,-0.010873,-0.010005,-0.00705,-0.00847,0.0035125,-0.0025905,0.0040115
    5,0.1120345,0.14957293,-0.010882571,-0.043028214,0.010463429,-0.016554143,-0.0019303571,-0.0056040714,0.0021767143,0.017546571,0.0021108571,0.0019375,-0.0061055,-0.003706,-0.0060103571,-0.00073871429,0.0010617857,0.0020993571,0.00422,-0.0050917857,-0.0015774286,0.0051138571,0.0010650714,-0.0011102857,-0.0004105
    6,0.090678667,0.14082,-0.059208333,-0.067722333,-0.023183667,-0.016640667,0.0021933333,-0.0072303333,-0.018134667,-0.0034623333,0.00747,0.00074933333,-0.00049533333,0.00073433333,-0.0034833333,-0.0043753333,-0.0038246667,0.0021116667,0.002472,0.00087533333,0.003785,0.00057666667,0.0030403333,-0.0020483333,0.0055883333
    7,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185
    8,0.12862,0.157407,0.013953,-0.033592,0.024004,-0.005578,0.0047,0.000692,-0.000205,0.038634,-0.001461,0.009591,-0.012042,-0.005505,-0.010043,0.009812,0.009909,-0.005574,0.011187,0.006128,-0.008735,-0.00643,-0.004437,-0.000964,0.008263
    9,0.028456,0.139128,-0.009051,-0.07429,0.026159,-0.029562,-0.017391,0.003461,0.050517,0.03098,0.004547,-0.001798,0.003865,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.011535,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.025768,-0.003126,-0.008984,-0.017435,0.011339,-0.011086,0.005389
    Sample TUR_Barcin_N GEO_CHG Levant_PPNB IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N RUS_Samara_HG
    Cluster 2 52,4 16,3 15 12,6 3,7
    TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA 54,8 17,2 13,8 14,2 0
    Italian_Campania 53,5 10,5 12,9 9 14,1
    Cluster 5 52,4 11,8 12,7 9 14,1
    TUR_Isparta_EBA 61,4 16,7 8,1 13,8 0

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Natufian is not "Eastern".... I already explained that to you. Natufian is Anatolia_N + Taforalt.

    Anatolia_ChL and Anatolia_BA are in fact mixed with CHG, as is Minoan. They are more "eastern".

    That's definitely more than the third time I have explained that.
    I mean eastern in a geographical sense. We have too few Natufian samples, but there is also a bit of Iran_N component among them and of course among Levant_PPN as well. However, the fit is too high, they are not perfectly modelable like this, or at least not to the extent that you can model EHG as WHG + ANE.

    Target: Levant_Natufian:I0861
    Distance: 0.1470% / 0.14696976
    32.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    31.9 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    19.6 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    15.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1290___BC_7856___Coverage_72.82%

    Target: Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072
    Distance: 0.1540% / 0.15399160
    59.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    37.7 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    2.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%

    Target: Levant_PPNB:BAJ001
    Distance: 0.1191% / 0.11909858
    62.6 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    22.4 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    10.3 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%
    4.7 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%

    Target: Levant_PPNB:I0867
    Distance: 0.1091% / 0.10913799
    31.9 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%
    31.1 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    10.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZKO_BON001___BC_7950___Coverage_50. 63%
    9.4 MAR_Taforalt:TAF011___BC_12500___Coverage_88.13%
    7.0 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    6.7 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    3.8 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%

    Target: Levant_PPNB:I1707
    Distance: 0.1099% / 0.10991360
    38.9 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    29.3 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    15.5 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    13.0 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%
    3.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%

    Target: Levant_PPNB:I1710
    Distance: 0.1071% / 0.10705677
    53.9 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZKO_BON001___BC_7950___Coverage_50. 63%
    26.0 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    10.6 MAR_Taforalt:TAF011___BC_12500___Coverage_88.13%
    4.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%
    4.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%

    Target: Levant_PPNB_contam:I1704
    Distance: 0.1051% / 0.10514663
    33.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    27.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950___Coverage_45 .31%
    16.4 MAR_Taforalt:TAF013___BC_12550___Coverage_84.93%
    15.2 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    6.9 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%

    Target: Levant_PPNC:I1699
    Distance: 0.1148% / 0.11483060
    49.1 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950___Coverage_67 .13%
    25.6 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG:ZBC_IPB001___BC_13461___Coverage_ 73.74%
    18.4 MAR_Taforalt:TAF011___BC_12500___Coverage_88.13%
    6.9 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264___Coverage_99.82%

  21. #46
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Could you provide evidence that the G25 samples are legit? Where are they from? Are they from official studies? I remember that there were many samples from unofficial samplings, such that Davidsky once took a look at the list and expunged some.
    not only for Italians but many modern samples in general (for Italians I recall he took out samples taken by Sizzi's collection).

    You see, the thing is that in the official papers south Italians don't get such results, which brings me to suspect there's something wrong with G25 ones, and the history of the likes of Sikeliot also shows that there are individuals wanting for some reasons to pass individuals that aren't ethnically Italian as ethnically Italian.
    Sizzi has absolutely nothing to do with either Global25 or Davidski. The individuals for modern samples were taken from official studies and especially from Raveane if I am not mistaken. It got it right with me anyway; I am half Lucanian and half Campanian.

    Code:
    Distance to:	Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled
    0.01527052	Italian_Campania
    0.01828729	Italian_Basilicata
    0.01893976	Italian_Apulia
    0.01966552	Italian_Calabria
    0.02057558	Sicilian_East
    0.02190541	Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.02238168	Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02343119	Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02382586	Maltese
    0.02546476	Italian_Molise
    0.02627601	Greek_Crete
    0.02633205	Italian_Lazio
    0.02656083	Sicilian_West
    0.02668553	Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02715113	Italian_Jew
    0.02779183	Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02817368	Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02907953	Greek_South_Tsakonia
    0.02954357	Greek_Izmir
    0.02984856	Ashkenazi_Lithuania

  22. #47
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Menachem View Post
    Natufians from an anthropometric sense aren't Eastern, they're Mediterranids now most commonly found in the Northern Mediterranean. Puglia hosts the population most similar.
    What does this mean, I'm trying to follow.

  23. #48
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Sizzi has absolutely nothing to do with either Global25 or Davidski. The individuals for modern samples were taken from official studies and especially from Raveane if I am not mistaken. It got it right with me anyway; I am half Lucanian and half Campanian.
    Code:
    Distance to:	Ajeje_Brazorf_scaled
    0.01527052	Italian_Campania
    0.01828729	Italian_Basilicata
    0.01893976	Italian_Apulia
    0.01966552	Italian_Calabria
    0.02057558	Sicilian_East
    0.02190541	Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.02238168	Italian_Abruzzo
    0.02343119	Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02382586	Maltese
    0.02546476	Italian_Molise
    0.02627601	Greek_Crete
    0.02633205	Italian_Lazio
    0.02656083	Sicilian_West
    0.02668553	Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02715113	Italian_Jew
    0.02779183	Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02817368	Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    0.02907953	Greek_South_Tsakonia
    0.02954357	Greek_Izmir
    0.02984856	Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    I couldn't care less what G25 or Davidski says. Show me a paper, Sarno et al. 2022 doesn't use PPN Levant to model Italians.

  24. #49
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    What does this mean, I'm trying to follow.
    It's back to studying Admixture by looking at body measurements.

    He'll be analyzing bumps on the skull next.

    It's the wanna be Jewish Italian and Portuguese Princess uniting for an assault.

    If it weren't so pathetically sad, it would be hilarious.

    Every single body buried in Italy during the Imperial period was that of a permanent, green card carrying immigrant whose descendants went into the gene pool.

    Only in other places in the Med were there merchants who were irrelevant to the future genetics of the people.

    That's not to say that some of them didn't stay, including some from the Levant, nor is it to say that perhaps there wasn't more Levant in Iron Age Anatolians and Greeks, because it's possible, but these jokers have to exaggerate everything to make their agendas based on mental health issues the "truth".

    @Leopoldo,
    Back on dna forums, Sickelliot, here under a sock account, would contact every Italian he could find, pretending to be another Italian who was doing a study or whatever, and these poor people gave him their data. They had no idea the uses to which it would be put.

    Thing is, I had a large collection of Sicilian and Southern Italian samples too, and they didn't look like his samples. Some did, but not all. For example, none of my Calabrian samples, of which I had many, had more than 2-3% North African, but his had large numbers. I challenged him, of course, and he swore up and down those were real samples.

    Still didn't make sense. He either cherry picked them, showing only the ones with the most "eastern" ancestry, in his uneducated understanding, or he played with their coordinates, changing them to show what he wanted.

    Once someone shows they're dishonest, you can never trust anything they say again. That's why you can impeach witnesses by showing they've lied in the past. You know, there was an Alabama governor who staffed the residence with prisoners in for murder. He said that most murderers usually murder only once, and sometimes for a good reason but liars and thieves always lie and steal.

    I had the same experience with Davidski. Caught him talking with a Russian guy about faking results back before he was so careful. Never believed another result he published.

  25. #50
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I couldn't care less what G25 or Davidski says. Show me a paper, Sarno et al. 2022 doesn't use PPN Levant to model Italians.
    And I, on the other hand, couldn't care less what the papers say. I have done this before. It matters little whether she uses Levant_PPN or not, she clearly says that the Levantine stuff is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefania Sarno, 2021
    Comparisons with modern and ancient populations highlighted ancient, long-lasting genetic links with Eastern Mediterranean and Caucasian/Near-Eastern groups as ancestral sources of Southern Italians.

    In fact, populations from Southern Italy globally form a clade that is related to the Caucasian Adygei group and, at a more basal level, to the Near Eastern clusters formed by Palestinians and Druze, respectively.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stefania Sarno, 2017
    Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries.

    We assembled an extended dataset consisting of 1,469 individuals from 68 modern populations, together with 263 ancient samples, and we ran PCA and ADMIXTURE analyses

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Italian study 40000 years in southern Europe
    By torzio in forum Neolithic & Chalcolithic
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 24-07-22, 15:09
  2. Replies: 28
    Last Post: 11-06-21, 01:15
  3. Classify fair southern italian (me)
    By franci-s91 in forum Guess the Ethnicity
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 19-05-19, 00:21
  4. southern Italian paper 2014-Sarno, Boattini et al
    By Sile in forum Paleogenetics
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-05-14, 21:10
  5. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 05-02-13, 02:39

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •