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Thread: Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory)

  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This model is basically a more expanded upon version. Interestingly, southern Italians remain the same in spite of all the new additions. Which leads me to believe it is a good model.

    am I the only one that finds it strange that Crete and Rhodos have almost zero minoan (almost all anatolian) while the jewish entries are full of minoan ....?

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    am I the only one that finds it strange that Crete and Rhodos have almost zero minoan (almost all anatolian) while the jewish entries are full of minoan ....?
    I could attempt an explanation, or rather two:

    a) Jews axorbed their minoan admiture somewere else than Crete and Rhodes, were this admixture wasn't presente anymore at the time they moved to southern Europe

    b) Maybe Crete and Rhodes received a small input of additional Levant PPN adimixture after the bronze age, wich "masks" their minoan adimixture as Anatolian Bronze age admixture...I don't even know if anything like that could technically happen, tough, and if it was possible it should happen to jews' model as well, I guess.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    I could attempt an explanation, or rather two:

    a) Jews axorbed their minoan admiture somewere else than Crete and Rhodes, were this admixture wasn't presente anymore at the time they moved to southern Europe

    b) Maybe Crete and Rhodes received a small input of additional Levant PPN adimixture after the bronze age, wich "masks" their minoan adimixture as Anatolian Bronze age admixture...I don't even know if anything like that could technically happen, tough, and if it was possible it could happened to jews' model as well.
    thanks for the answer, and believe me I am far from an expert in genetics, but it is hard not to be sceptical:

    a) maroccan jews have so much minoan... can't explain it.
    b)yes the graph does not unmask that or any component in what it should be probably the highest minoan concentration (almost a reference).
    By the graph Cretans have less minoan than Austrial tyrol. I think that is a critical failure as i would not pass any consistency test.

    honestly i thought i was going daltonic by how many times I checked the colorcoding.

  4. #179
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    Code:
    Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
    Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
    Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
    Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579

  5. #180
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    Two pretty heavily steppe admixed individuals from bronze age Friuli (Broion_BA) seem to fall outside the central european bronze age cluster (wich sits on a cline between Yamnaya and Western Europe neolithic) and are located on a cline which connect Yamnaya with eastern europe neolithic.
    This circumstance seems to fit with your model of using Yamanaya to model italians rather than a more "Bell Beaker-like" population.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    from bronze age Friuli (Broion_BA)
    Broion is from Veneto IIRC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Broion is from Veneto IIRC.
    correct

    in the euganean hills..............from the indigenous Euganei tribes of Veneto

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean_Hills
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    My results using Source populations and coordinates from Jovialis post #179

    Target Distance Minoan_Odigitria Minoan_Petras Yamnaya
    PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY 2.83795309 40.2 36.9 22.9
    Average 2.83795309 40.2 36.9 22


    Thanks Jovialis

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    Interesting tidbit, King Minos, who the Minoans are named for by Sir Auther Evans, according to Mythology, died in Camicus, Sicily. Also his ship went to Southern Italy.

    Minos - Wikipedia

    Crete and Italy in the Late Bronze Age III Period on JSTOR

  10. #185
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    In conclusion we can say that at Roca many archaeological data have been collected which clearly testify to strong and frequent contacts with the Aegean world. These contacts seem to reach their greatest intensity around 1200 BC, when we register the highest percentages of Aegean-type ceramics, both imported and made locally, which clearly include Minoan and Minoanising products. In this period Roca probably served as an important node in a large-scale Mediterranean trade network.

    0xc1aa5576 0x003c9794.pdf (austriaca.at)
    Roca is in Puglia, in Lecce.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Roca is in Puglia, in Lecce.
    I know the place well, … my family has a summer house less than a mile from Roca.

    There’s an Archaeological site that you can visit.








  12. #187
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    … the Messapi, or whomever built that site must have been extremely strong, … many of those stone blocks are massive.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks to Salento for his contributions!

    I put together a Dodecad G13 version of the Minoan-Yamnaya model for Southern Italy.

    Averages:

    Code:
    Minoan_Zakros:Lazaridis_2022:I14916,0,0,0.64,0.67,22.02,0,50.77,1.4,0,24.19,0,0.31,0
    Minoan_Petras:Clemente_2021:Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
    Minoan_Lasithi_(n=5),0,0,0.432,0.08,19.746,0.166,52.636,0.15,0,23.454,3.228,0,0.11
    Minoan_Odigitria_(n=5),0.794,0,0.23,0.31,19.91,0,54.714,0.056,0.308,20.014,3.666,0,0
    Yamnaya_Samara_(n=9),0.018888889,3.161111111,0.722222222,0.093333333,0,0,1.738888889,0.267777778,2.028888889,27.44,60.97888889,3.494444444,0.055555556
    Individual Samples:

    Code:
    Minoan_Zakros:Lazaridis_2022:I14916,0,0,0.64,0.67,22.02,0,50.77,1.4,0,24.19,0,0.31,0
    Minoan_Petras:Clemente_2021:Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
    Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0070,0,0,0.22,0.01,21.21,0.25,52.88,0.44,0,23.77,1.22,0,0
    Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0071,0,0,0.23,0.39,19.31,0,50.55,0,0,23.95,5.57,0,0
    Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0073,0,0,0.99,0,19.1,0.22,52.99,0,0,24.46,2.24,0,0
    Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0074,0,0,0,0,18.15,0,53.32,0.31,0,23.14,4.53,0,0.55
    Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I9005,0,0,0.72,0,20.96,0.36,53.44,0,0,21.95,2.58,0,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9127,0,0,1.06,0,18.24,0,59.29,0,0,21.41,0,0,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9128,3.97,0,0,0,15.76,0,57.01,0,0,14.75,8.51,0,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9129,0,0,0,1.07,19.82,0,57.22,0,0,15.93,5.96,0,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9130,0,0,0,0.48,21.49,0,50.73,0,0,24.64,2.66,0,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9131,0,0,0.09,0,24.24,0,49.32,0.28,1.54,23.34,1.2,0,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0231,0,3.81,0.9,0,0,0,1.26,0,1.91,27.12,59.67,5.33,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0357,0,3.17,0.27,0,0,0,3.81,0.63,1.23,28.59,57.86,4.44,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0370,0.17,3.36,1.06,0,0,0,1.06,0,2.2,28.25,60.39,3.5,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0429,0,2.83,0.44,0,0,0,0,0,2.45,27.29,64.52,1.97,0.5
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0438,0,3.16,0.42,0,0,0,0.31,0.2,1.21,28.49,61.75,4.47,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0439,0,3.39,1.14,0,0,0,5.36,1.01,0.39,26.21,59.14,3.37,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0441,0,4.64,1.04,0,0,0,0,0.56,3.19,26.93,61.14,2.5,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0443,0,2.17,0.78,0.06,0,0,1.39,0.01,2.83,27.88,61.64,3.23,0
    Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0444,0,1.92,0.45,0.78,0,0,2.46,0,2.85,26.2,62.7,2.64,0



  14. #189
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Tip of my cap to Jovialis on his great insight into Southern Italian genetics

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    Thanks Malaparte, but I couldn't have done it without contributions and insights from my colleagues on this website.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Code:
    Yamnaya_Samara,29.22222222,2.065555556,0,0.171111111,4.561111111,58.40777778,1.35,0.025555556,0,0,3.558888889,0.638888889
    Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
    Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
    Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
    Minoan_Petras,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Here's a modification of the Dodecad K12b version that uses an aggregate of Yamnaya_Samara from Mathieson et al. 2015, rather than the generically labeled Yamnaya samples from Allentoft, Haak, Jarve, and Mathieson. It basically looks the same.

    One observation is see for me particularly is that using these same samples between G13 and K12b;

    K12b prefers Lasithi overwhelmingly for me as Minoan substratum.

    G13 prefers Odigitria more with some Lasithi.


  17. #192
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    Code:
    Cetina,6.343125,0.3475,2.3425,0.0375,34.4525,28.261875,0.09125,0.11375,4.878125,0.3025,22.375,0.458125
    Yamnaya_Samara,29.22222222,2.065555556,0,0.171111111,4.561111111,58.40777778,1.35,0.025555556,0,0,3.558888889,0.638888889
    Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
    Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
    Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
    Minoan_Petras,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    Cetina culture came to Puglia, as did the Ancient Greeks (Minoan + Yamnaya). Considering the close affinity the Cetina cluster has to R1 the proto-Villanovan from the Adriatic-side of Italy, it is perhaps it could potentially also serve as a good proxy or insight for specific Italic tribes. Considering IBD analysis shows no major migration came to Italy after 400 BC, and there is a link to the Balkans, below provide some intriguing results.

    Note: the best fit is for Puglia, and Abruzzo.


  18. #193
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    South-Eastern Italy (Apulia)Despite the increase in the number of finds in the last ten years, evidence of Cetina-type pottery in Italy remains fragmentary. The quantity of sherds remains scanty, but they are spread over a vast area ranging from the Karst in the north-east, to Apulia in the south-east, and Campania in the south-west of the peninsula. More-over, pottery resembling Cetina types occurs in Calabria, eastern Sicily and the Ae-olian Islands. Most of the sherds from peninsular Italy are stray finds, so it remains difficult to assess the nature of the contexts and their chronology.As is well known, Apulia is one of the Italian regions yielding a considerable quan-tity of Cetina-type pottery. Finds are chiefly located in the northern part of the re-gion (Gargano promontory and the Tavoliere plain), and in inland areas of the cen-tral-southern par t of the region (Altamura and Laterza; Cataldo 1996). Rutigliano-Le Rene (RadIna 1989), in central Apulia, stands outside this pattern, as it is located in the coastal plain (10km circa from the coast) and is likely to be a settlement.

    (PDF) The Cetina phenomenon across the Adriatic during the 2nd half of the 3rd millennium BC: new data and research perspectives (researchgate.net)
    Interesting read, also found in the south-west of Italy.

  19. #194
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    Jovialis: My results using coordinates from post 191 and 192.


  20. #195
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    @Palermo, that a pretty good fit.

    Cetina is closest to Northern Italians:

    Distance to: Cetina:I19032
    4.02642521 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    4.09216324 Veneto:ALP022
    4.65457839 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
    4.91085532 Lombardy:ALP288
    4.95551208 Veneto:KF1803109
    5.27690250 French_Provencerovance2708
    5.29713130 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    5.49293182 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    5.63920207 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    5.64941590 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
    5.68209468 Veneto:KF1803151
    5.68796976 Veneto:ALP116
    5.69730638 Veneto:ALP273
    5.74117584 TSI:NA20539_SG
    5.74519799 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    5.80021551 UK_Wales:WalesL45
    5.81548794 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    6.19901605 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    6.25972843 Veneto:ALP249
    6.33024486 Liguria:ALP099
    6.35377053 TSI:NA20768_SG
    6.36974097 Veneto:KF1800751
    6.37771119 Veneto:ALP209
    6.49746104 TSI:NA20756_SG
    6.53408754 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420


    Distance to: Cetina:I19029
    6.15037397 Montenegro19
    6.78943297 Montenegro15
    6.98695213 Macedonian17b-d
    7.12377007 Serbia2
    7.40424203 Serbia18
    7.44130365 Montenegro21
    7.45523306 Macedonian19
    7.56997358 Montenegro20
    7.70811910 Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
    7.74353279 Serbia4
    7.81336035 Serbia5
    7.86699434 Macedonian21
    8.08565396 Romania:Romania6
    8.18625678 Romania:Romania4
    8.31801659 Veneto:ALP322
    8.33784145 Kosovo14
    8.37194123 Montenegro1
    8.50151163 Serbia10
    8.56677302 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
    8.56830788 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700922
    8.64865307 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE34
    8.85972912 Montenegro17
    8.91158796 Montenegro9
    8.94688773 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    9.08308318 Kosovo11


    Distance to: Cetina:I19027
    2.30273750 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    2.59194907 Veneto:KF1803105
    2.79435145 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    2.86134584 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    2.99923324 Veneto:ALP249
    3.16733326 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    3.32314610 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    3.46916416 Veneto:ALP378
    3.67575843 Veneto:ALP322
    3.94244848 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    4.02770406 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    4.04682592 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    4.05028394 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
    4.44221791 Veneto:ALP273
    4.44679660 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    4.59373486 Veneto:KF1800751
    4.64717118 Veneto:ALP250
    4.68230712 Lombardy:HGDP01147
    4.73779485 Veneto:Alp401
    4.77225314 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    4.89055212 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    4.89563071 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    4.92363687 Veneto:KF1800772
    4.94056677 Corsica_o:corsica11908
    5.01417989 Veneto:ALP022


    Distance to: Cetina:I19026
    4.84280910 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    4.95909266 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    5.02234009 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    5.36100737 Veneto:ALP322
    5.56880598 Veneto:KF1803105
    5.75306875 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    6.08157874 Veneto:ALP250
    6.08220355 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    6.12695683 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
    6.29306761 Veneto:ALP273
    6.35488001 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    6.41566832 Veneto:ALP249
    6.44658049 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
    6.55673699 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    6.62443960 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    6.62989442 Veneto:ALP378
    6.73304537 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    6.86781625 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
    6.87538363 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
    6.91088996 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    7.02371696 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    7.13635761 Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley
    7.15849845 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    7.39163040 Corsica_o:corsica11908
    7.43647094 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w


    Distance to: Cetina:I19025
    17.73060349 Germany:B:GermanB14
    18.39160134 Portugal:Portugal11
    19.44738543 UK_Wales:WalesDR68
    19.44770423 Germany:B:GermanB6
    20.24182304 Portugal:Portugal10
    20.25791944 Germany:B:GermanB10
    20.43853468 UK_Wales:WalesBK33
    20.47555616 Portugal:Portugal2
    20.51230606 Portugal:Portugal6
    20.54036757 French_Provencerovance4409
    20.64936803 UK_Wales:WalesL86
    20.78892494 Portugal:Portugal7
    20.96291010 UK_Wales:WalesDR84
    20.99010005 French_Provencerovance4109
    21.03281959 Germany:B:GermanB19
    21.08988383 Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308
    21.15059574 French_Provencerovance4509
    21.18589861 Portugal:Portugal13
    21.25987770 French_Provencerovance2508
    21.29112726 UK_Wales:WalesBK58
    21.41448575 Germany:German24
    21.42211708 UK_Wales:WalesDR56
    21.42911337 Germany:B:GermanB4
    21.43534698 UK_Wales:WalesL40
    21.47289920 Germany:German1


    Distance to: Cetina:I19019
    7.05703904 Veneto:ALP249
    7.17744383 Veneto:ALP378
    7.20432509 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
    7.45457578 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    7.49099459 TSI:NA20540_SG
    7.57181616 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    7.62449998 TSI:NA20801_SG
    7.76158489 Kosovo12
    7.80019872 UK_Wales:WalesL45
    7.87432537 Lombardy:HGDP01151
    8.03468730 TSI:NA20533_SG
    8.04366210 TSI:NA20520_SG
    8.09043880 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    8.09757371 Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
    8.10327711 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    8.18150964 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    8.19978658 TSI:NA20769_SG
    8.31793244 TSI:NA20526_SG
    8.36393448 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 8
    8.39128715 TSI:NA20770_SG
    8.43756481 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
    8.48185121 Veneto:ALP209
    8.52213588 Liguria:ALP099
    8.61712829 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    8.63304118 Veneto:ALP022


    Distance to: Cetina:I19017
    6.77671012 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    6.83544439 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    7.39447091 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    7.57680672 Veneto:ALP249
    7.68506344 Lombardy:HGDP01151
    7.73775807 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    8.15462445 French_Provencerovance2508
    8.16283652 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    8.17372008 Veneto:ALP378
    8.17757910 Veneto:KF1800772
    8.27434590 Corsica_o:corsica11908
    8.37891998 Veneto:Alp401
    8.41379225 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    8.51998239 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
    8.53238536 Veneto:ALP040
    8.58785189 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    8.61175940 Veneto:KF1803151
    8.61315273 Veneto:KF1803105
    8.61557891 Veneto:ALP022
    8.71987385 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    8.76069061 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    8.83297232 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    8.91829019 Lombardy:HGDP01154
    9.04562878 Liguria:ALP099
    9.14555083 Lombardy:ALP288


    Distance to: Cetina:I18752
    1.95420060 Veneto:ALP378
    2.28201665 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    2.34838242 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    2.88890983 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    2.91146011 Veneto:ALP249
    3.58786845 Veneto:KF1803105
    3.73510375 Veneto:ALP022
    3.77014589 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    3.90362652 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    3.95580586 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    3.96821118 Veneto:ALP273
    3.97635511 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    4.00932663 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    4.09047674 Veneto:ALP322
    4.09452073 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    4.11192169 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    4.33395893 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
    4.42736942 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    4.55929819 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP093
    4.63646417 Veneto:KF1803151
    4.68698197 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    5.02068720 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    5.15406636 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    5.19334189 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    5.23950379 Veneto:KF1800751


    Distance to: Cetina:I18747
    4.05071599 Veneto:ALP249
    4.41426098 Veneto:ALP322
    4.60245587 Veneto:ALP378
    4.77503927 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    4.80566333 Veneto:ALP273
    4.84873179 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    4.86381537 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    4.96893349 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
    5.03518619 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    5.06698135 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    5.21819892 UK_Wales:WalesL45
    5.36441050 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    5.47263191 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    5.54823395 Veneto:ALP209
    5.62768158 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
    5.73407360 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    5.77369033 Veneto:KF1803105
    5.85544191 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    5.96776340 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    6.11389401 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    6.11463817 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700922
    6.29431490 Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
    6.41915103 Liguria:ALP099
    6.48875951 Veneto:KF1803109
    6.60484671 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63


    Distance to: Cetina:I18746
    2.31421693 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    3.27955790 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
    3.28478310 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    3.29525416 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    3.43036441 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
    3.50541010 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    3.58848157 Veneto:ALP378
    3.69051487 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP093
    3.90838841 Veneto:KF1803105
    4.01752411 Veneto:KF1803151
    4.02405268 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    4.34967815 Veneto:ALP249
    4.46682214 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    4.60813411 Veneto:ALP022
    4.61275406 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    4.75250460 Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley
    4.76623541 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
    4.78270844 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    4.80388385 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
    4.93198743 Veneto:ALP250
    4.94248925 French_Provencerovance2508
    4.97302725 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
    5.08844770 Veneto:ALP322
    5.09893126 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    5.28325657 Veneto:ALP273


    Distance to: Cetina:I18745
    2.07004831 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    2.09926178 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    3.27100902 Veneto:KF1803105
    3.78234055 Lombardy:HGDP01147
    3.83963540 Veneto:ALP378
    3.85576192 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    3.90709611 Veneto:Alp401
    4.05965516 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    4.09928042 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
    4.10015853 Veneto:ALP249
    4.15505716 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
    4.27863296 Veneto:KF1800751
    4.33757997 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
    4.41751061 Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
    4.42952593 Veneto:KF1800772
    4.43874982 Veneto:ALP322
    4.83554547 Lombardy:HGDP01151
    4.84514190 Veneto:ALP273
    4.95498739 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    4.97591198 Veneto:ALP022
    5.03784676 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
    5.06445456 Veneto:ALP250
    5.07372644 Veneto:ALP040
    5.14175067 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
    5.31201468 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761


    Distance to: Cetina:I18088
    2.84557551 Veneto:Alp401
    2.91893816 Veneto:KF1800751
    3.30242335 Veneto:ALP022
    3.46079471 Lombardy:ALP288
    3.57770876 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    3.61394521 Veneto:KF1800772
    3.78319970 Veneto:ALP116
    3.84792152 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
    3.97224118 Veneto:KF1803109
    4.01468554 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    4.05704326 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
    4.07651812 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont119
    4.09339712 French_Provencerovance2708
    4.31369911 Liguria:ALP099
    4.47593566 Corsica_o:corsica11908
    4.48498606 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
    4.54936259 Lombardy:HGDP01154
    4.61590728 TSI:NA20581_SG
    4.62750473 Veneto:ALP249
    4.71518823 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149
    4.72983086 TSI:NA20524_SG
    4.77122626 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    4.82459325 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    4.82576419 Veneto:KF1803105
    4.88129081 Lombardy:HGDP01173


    Distance to: Cetina:I11843
    2.62594745 Veneto:ALP209
    2.67576157 TSI:NA20539_SG
    2.92624333 TSI:NA20520_SG
    3.28592453 TSI:NA20515_SG
    3.36780344 Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
    3.40286644 TSI:NA20775_SG
    3.48919762 TSI:NA20510_SG
    3.66334547 Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    3.85255759 TSI:NA20768_SG
    3.93685153 TSI:NA20756_SG
    4.04305578 TSI:NA20518_SG
    4.13716086 TSI:NA20517_SG
    4.26041078 TSI:NA20524_SG
    4.36785989 TSI:NA20767_SG
    4.44031530 TSI:NA20801_SG
    4.45788066 TSI:NA20815_SG
    4.46722509 TSI:NA20818_SG
    4.50319886 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    4.52176957 TSI:NA20535_SG
    4.57747747 TSI:NA20507_SG
    4.62548376 Piedmont:Piedmont154
    4.63022678 TSI:NA20526_SG
    4.74285779 Tuscan:VO59
    4.77117386 TSI:NA20805_SG
    4.84489422 TSI:NA20785_SG


    Distance to: Cetina:_dup.or.1d.rel.I19017:I19020
    3.56161480 Spain:Spain4
    3.96998741 Spain:Spain6
    5.32487559 Spain:Spain2
    5.41457293 Spain:Spain3
    5.84074482 Spain:Spain11
    7.02833551 Spain:Spain5
    7.53392992 French_Provencerovance4109
    7.69130028 Corsica_o:CorsicaS00708
    7.76559077 Portugal:Portugal1
    7.94065488 Spain:Spain13
    8.00111867 Portugal:Portugal13
    8.38651298 Portugal:Portugal9
    8.83572861 Portugal:Portugal6
    9.38874859 Portugal:Portugal7
    9.51725275 French_Provencerovance4509
    9.66067803 Spain:Spain1
    9.72998458 Spain:Spain10
    9.73141305 Spain:Spain12
    9.82100300 Lombardy:HGDP01153
    10.04279344 Lombardy:HGDP01171
    10.25961013 Spain:Spain8
    10.34415777 Portugal:Portugal11
    10.51662969 Spain:Spain9
    10.61041470 Lombardy:HGDP01173
    10.63096421 Portugal:Portugal10


    Distance to: Cetina:_1d.rel.I19027.possible.1d.rel.I19020:I1902 2
    5.65951411 Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy2e
    7.20147901 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 12
    7.84132642 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 10
    8.02659953 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA019
    8.27231527 Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop7
    8.36416164 Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop10
    8.71231313 Greece_Phokaia:GreecePhokaia60
    8.75029142 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 4
    8.82779134 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA023
    8.92190563 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 16
    8.93516648 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 11
    9.11309497 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral7
    9.32107826 Greece_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna4
    9.43690097 Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly4
    9.51101992 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 5
    9.55160719 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA028
    9.66110242 Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop4
    10.17155347 Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE209
    10.25151696 Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop1
    10.26308920 Greece_Macedonia:GreeceMaced3
    10.39869703 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 18
    10.43655595 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA029
    10.45057415 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA011
    10.47865449 Greece_F:GreeceF28k
    10.62674456 Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA025


    Distance to: Cetina:I19021
    6.09265952 Lombardy:HGDP01151
    7.64921565 Kosovo14
    7.83333901 Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
    8.13660249 TSI:NA20801_SG
    8.39334260 Veneto:ALP378
    8.49169006 TSI:NA20520_SG
    8.53820824 TSI:NA20505_SG
    8.62936266 Veneto:ALP249
    8.63021437 TSI:NA20769_SG
    8.86248836 TSI:NA20540_SG
    8.86600812 Piedmont:Piedmont61
    8.99253579 Veneto:ALP322
    9.11120738 TSI:NA20533_SG
    9.15007650 Kosovo1
    9.19351402 Veneto:ALP209
    9.21238840 Kosovo16
    9.21653948 Greece_Central:GreeceCentral9
    9.22023319 Romania:Romania6
    9.31178286 Kosovo8
    9.42150200 Kosovo11
    9.44312978 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
    9.44600445 Albanian:AL9
    9.45638409 Albanian:AL12
    9.52326625 Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
    9.52698798 Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 8

  21. #196
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm going to reiterate that we still need samples from tribes like the Oscans, Lucanians, and Samnites to get a better picture, to properly deduce the "northern" ancestry. But Cetina is a good fit for now, especially for Puglia, where the culture has many artifacts. With the inclusion of those tribes, I expect the nebulous Yamnaya_Samara admixture will go down, as it did with Cetina, and go to an appropriate level that would have arrived with Ancient Greeks (Yamna + Minoan)


  22. #197
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Salerno sample is surprisingly more northern than the other Campanian and Naples samples. Maybe it has something to do with that green spot on the map?


  23. #198
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Not only Ancient Greeks, and Bronze-Age Cetina, but other Balkan immigrants from the Iron Age would have been genetically similar. Maintaining the genetic profile. Aegean_BA + Slovenian_IA. Slovenian_IA which is basically similar to Cetina; but pulled a section north of them. There's a reason why Balkan_IA samples overlap with Southern Italians up to Tuscany.




  24. #199
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Salerno sample is surprisingly more northern than the other Campanian and Naples samples. Maybe it has something to do with that green spot on the map?
    The area on the map seems more centered around Benevento than Salerno.
    The difference is indeed quite strange and interesting, since Napoli and Salerno are very close to each other and both placed by the sea.
    It could be due to the Lombard principality of Salerno, but if find it strange, since I don't think there were so many actual lombards there. Anyway, that could easily be tested by YDNA.
    Maybe Salerno was more heavily settled (and resettled over time) by oscan or italic - like people from the mainland, maybe even by some of those Liguri Apuani which had been deported in the Samnium by the Romans.

  25. #200
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    Greek names in Pompeii (mostly among the slaves). Those Greek names represent Anatolians, Levantines and of course ethnic Greeks. In other words it is a indicator of the recent eastern origin. Pompeii was an Oscan speaking regions and it was recolonized by Romans in 80BC following the language shift from Oscan to Latin.
    https://namenookdotcom.wordpress.com...le-of-pompeii/
    Last edited by ihype02; 21-09-22 at 01:03.

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