Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory)

[Bergin]

This model is basically a more expanded upon version. Interestingly, southern Italians remain the same in spite of all the new additions. Which leads me to believe it is a good model.

am I the only one that finds it strange that Crete and Rhodos have almost zero minoan (almost all anatolian) while the jewish entries are full of minoan ....?

[Francesco]

am I the only one that finds it strange that Crete and Rhodos have almost zero minoan (almost all anatolian) while the jewish entries are full of minoan ....?

I could attempt an explanation, or rather two:

a) Jews axorbed their minoan admiture somewere else than Crete and Rhodes, were this admixture wasn't presente anymore at the time they moved to southern Europe

b) Maybe Crete and Rhodes received a small input of additional Levant PPN adimixture after the bronze age, wich "masks" their minoan adimixture as Anatolian Bronze age admixture...I don't even know if anything like that could technically happen, tough, and if it was possible it should happen to jews' model as well, I guess.

[Bergin]

I could attempt an explanation, or rather two:

a) Jews axorbed their minoan admiture somewere else than Crete and Rhodes, were this admixture wasn't presente anymore at the time they moved to southern Europe

b) Maybe Crete and Rhodes received a small input of additional Levant PPN adimixture after the bronze age, wich "masks" their minoan adimixture as Anatolian Bronze age admixture...I don't even know if anything like that could technically happen, tough, and if it was possible it could happened to jews' model as well.

thanks for the answer, and believe me I am far from an expert in genetics, but it is hard not to be sceptical:

a) maroccan jews have so much minoan... can't explain it.
b)yes the graph does not unmask that or any component in what it should be probably the highest minoan concentration (almost a reference).
By the graph Cretans have less minoan than Austrial tyrol. I think that is a critical failure as i would not pass any consistency test.

honestly i thought i was going daltonic by how many times I checked the colorcoding.

[Jovialis]

Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Yamnaya,26.74263158,2.019473684,0.048947368,0.048947368,4.413157895,59.63526316,1.102631579,0.022631579,0.02,0,5.234210526,0.712631579

[Francesco]

Two pretty heavily steppe admixed individuals from bronze age Friuli (Broion_BA) seem to fall outside the central european bronze age cluster (wich sits on a cline between Yamnaya and Western Europe neolithic) and are located on a cline which connect Yamnaya with eastern europe neolithic.
This circumstance seems to fit with your model of using Yamanaya to model italians rather than a more "Bell Beaker-like" population.

[Er Monnezza]

from bronze age Friuli (Broion_BA)

Broion is from Veneto IIRC.

[torzio]

Broion is from Veneto IIRC.

correct

in the euganean hills..............from the indigenous Euganei tribes of Veneto

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean_Hills

[Palermo Trapani]

My results using Source populations and coordinates from Jovialis post #179

Target	Distance		Minoan_Odigitria	Minoan_Petras	Yamnaya
PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY	2.83795309	•	40.2	36.9	22.9
Average	2.83795309	•	40.2	36.9	22

Thanks Jovialis

[Jovialis]

Interesting tidbit, King Minos, who the Minoans are named for by Sir Auther Evans, according to Mythology, died in Camicus, Sicily. Also his ship went to Southern Italy.

Minos - Wikipedia

Crete and Italy in the Late Bronze Age III Period on JSTOR

[Jovialis]

In conclusion we can say that at Roca many archaeological data have been collected which clearly testify to strong and frequent contacts with the Aegean world. These contacts seem to reach their greatest intensity around 1200 BC, when we register the highest percentages of Aegean-type ceramics, both imported and made locally, which clearly include Minoan and Minoanising products. In this period Roca probably served as an important node in a large-scale Mediterranean trade network.

0xc1aa5576 0x003c9794.pdf (austriaca.at)

Roca is in Puglia, in Lecce.

[Salento]

Roca is in Puglia, in Lecce.

I know the place well, … my family has a summer house less than a mile from Roca.

There’s an Archaeological site that you can visit.

[Salento]

… the Messapi, or whomever built that site must have been extremely strong, … many of those stone blocks are massive.

[Jovialis]

Thanks to Salento for his contributions!

I put together a Dodecad G13 version of the Minoan-Yamnaya model for Southern Italy.

Averages:

Minoan_Zakros:Lazaridis_2022:I14916,0,0,0.64,0.67,22.02,0,50.77,1.4,0,24.19,0,0.31,0
Minoan_Petras:Clemente_2021:Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
Minoan_Lasithi_(n=5),0,0,0.432,0.08,19.746,0.166,52.636,0.15,0,23.454,3.228,0,0.11
Minoan_Odigitria_(n=5),0.794,0,0.23,0.31,19.91,0,54.714,0.056,0.308,20.014,3.666,0,0
Yamnaya_Samara_(n=9),0.018888889,3.161111111,0.722222222,0.093333333,0,0,1.738888889,0.267777778,2.028888889,27.44,60.97888889,3.494444444,0.055555556

Individual Samples:

Minoan_Zakros:Lazaridis_2022:I14916,0,0,0.64,0.67,22.02,0,50.77,1.4,0,24.19,0,0.31,0
Minoan_Petras:Clemente_2021:Pta08,0,0,2.4,0.11,20.85,0.57,50,0.38,0,21.18,4.51,0,0
Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0070,0,0,0.22,0.01,21.21,0.25,52.88,0.44,0,23.77,1.22,0,0
Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0071,0,0,0.23,0.39,19.31,0,50.55,0,0,23.95,5.57,0,0
Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0073,0,0,0.99,0,19.1,0.22,52.99,0,0,24.46,2.24,0,0
Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I0074,0,0,0,0,18.15,0,53.32,0.31,0,23.14,4.53,0,0.55
Minoan_Lasithi:Lazaridis_2017:I9005,0,0,0.72,0,20.96,0.36,53.44,0,0,21.95,2.58,0,0
Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9127,0,0,1.06,0,18.24,0,59.29,0,0,21.41,0,0,0
Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9128,3.97,0,0,0,15.76,0,57.01,0,0,14.75,8.51,0,0
Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9129,0,0,0,1.07,19.82,0,57.22,0,0,15.93,5.96,0,0
Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9130,0,0,0,0.48,21.49,0,50.73,0,0,24.64,2.66,0,0
Minoan_Odigitria:Lazaridis_2017:I9131,0,0,0.09,0,24.24,0,49.32,0.28,1.54,23.34,1.2,0,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0231,0,3.81,0.9,0,0,0,1.26,0,1.91,27.12,59.67,5.33,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0357,0,3.17,0.27,0,0,0,3.81,0.63,1.23,28.59,57.86,4.44,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0370,0.17,3.36,1.06,0,0,0,1.06,0,2.2,28.25,60.39,3.5,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0429,0,2.83,0.44,0,0,0,0,0,2.45,27.29,64.52,1.97,0.5
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0438,0,3.16,0.42,0,0,0,0.31,0.2,1.21,28.49,61.75,4.47,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0439,0,3.39,1.14,0,0,0,5.36,1.01,0.39,26.21,59.14,3.37,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0441,0,4.64,1.04,0,0,0,0,0.56,3.19,26.93,61.14,2.5,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0443,0,2.17,0.78,0.06,0,0,1.39,0.01,2.83,27.88,61.64,3.23,0
Yamnaya_Samara:Mathieson_2015:I0444,0,1.92,0.45,0.78,0,0,2.46,0,2.85,26.2,62.7,2.64,0

[Malaparte]

Tip of my cap to Jovialis on his great insight into Southern Italian genetics

[Jovialis]

Thanks Malaparte, but I couldn't have done it without contributions and insights from my colleagues on this website.

[Jovialis]

Yamnaya_Samara,29.22222222,2.065555556,0,0.171111111,4.561111111,58.40777778,1.35,0.025555556,0,0,3.558888889,0.638888889
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72

Here's a modification of the Dodecad K12b version that uses an aggregate of Yamnaya_Samara from Mathieson et al. 2015, rather than the generically labeled Yamnaya samples from Allentoft, Haak, Jarve, and Mathieson. It basically looks the same.

One observation is see for me particularly is that using these same samples between G13 and K12b;

K12b prefers Lasithi overwhelmingly for me as Minoan substratum.

G13 prefers Odigitria more with some Lasithi.

[Jovialis]

Cetina,6.343125,0.3475,2.3425,0.0375,34.4525,28.261875,0.09125,0.11375,4.878125,0.3025,22.375,0.458125
Yamnaya_Samara,29.22222222,2.065555556,0,0.171111111,4.561111111,58.40777778,1.35,0.025555556,0,0,3.558888889,0.638888889
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
Minoan_Lasithi,0.652,0.01,3.302,0.19,37.716,0.046,0,0,14.12,0,43.886,0.078
Minoan_Odigitria,2.584,0.472,1.574,0,42.44,0,0,0.338,14.602,0.204,37.722,0.066
Minoan_Petras,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72

Cetina culture came to Puglia, as did the Ancient Greeks (Minoan + Yamnaya). Considering the close affinity the Cetina cluster has to R1 the proto-Villanovan from the Adriatic-side of Italy, it is perhaps it could potentially also serve as a good proxy or insight for specific Italic tribes. Considering IBD analysis shows no major migration came to Italy after 400 BC, and there is a link to the Balkans, below provide some intriguing results.

Note: the best fit is for Puglia, and Abruzzo.

[Jovialis]

South-Eastern Italy (Apulia)Despite the increase in the number of finds in the last ten years, evidence of Cetina-type pottery in Italy remains fragmentary. The quantity of sherds remains scanty, but they are spread over a vast area ranging from the Karst in the north-east, to Apulia in the south-east, and Campania in the south-west of the peninsula. More-over, pottery resembling Cetina types occurs in Calabria, eastern Sicily and the Ae-olian Islands. Most of the sherds from peninsular Italy are stray finds, so it remains difficult to assess the nature of the contexts and their chronology.As is well known, Apulia is one of the Italian regions yielding a considerable quan-tity of Cetina-type pottery. Finds are chiefly located in the northern part of the re-gion (Gargano promontory and the Tavoliere plain), and in inland areas of the cen-tral-southern par t of the region (Altamura and Laterza; Cataldo 1996). Rutigliano-Le Rene (RadIna 1989), in central Apulia, stands outside this pattern, as it is located in the coastal plain (10km circa from the coast) and is likely to be a settlement.

(PDF) The Cetina phenomenon across the Adriatic during the 2nd half of the 3rd millennium BC: new data and research perspectives (researchgate.net)

Interesting read, also found in the south-west of Italy.

[Palermo Trapani]

Jovialis: My results using coordinates from post 191 and 192.

[Jovialis]

@Palermo, that a pretty good fit.

Cetina is closest to Northern Italians:

Distance to:	Cetina:I19032
4.02642521	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
4.09216324	Veneto:ALP022
4.65457839	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
4.91085532	Lombardy:ALP288
4.95551208	Veneto:KF1803109
5.27690250	French_Provencerovance2708
5.29713130	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
5.49293182	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
5.63920207	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
5.64941590	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
5.68209468	Veneto:KF1803151
5.68796976	Veneto:ALP116
5.69730638	Veneto:ALP273
5.74117584	TSI:NA20539_SG
5.74519799	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
5.80021551	UK_Wales:WalesL45
5.81548794	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
6.19901605	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
6.25972843	Veneto:ALP249
6.33024486	Liguria:ALP099
6.35377053	TSI:NA20768_SG
6.36974097	Veneto:KF1800751
6.37771119	Veneto:ALP209
6.49746104	TSI:NA20756_SG
6.53408754	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19029
6.15037397	Montenegro19
6.78943297	Montenegro15
6.98695213	Macedonian17b-d
7.12377007	Serbia2
7.40424203	Serbia18
7.44130365	Montenegro21
7.45523306	Macedonian19
7.56997358	Montenegro20
7.70811910	Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
7.74353279	Serbia4
7.81336035	Serbia5
7.86699434	Macedonian21
8.08565396	Romania:Romania6
8.18625678	Romania:Romania4
8.31801659	Veneto:ALP322
8.33784145	Kosovo14
8.37194123	Montenegro1
8.50151163	Serbia10
8.56677302	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
8.56830788	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700922
8.64865307	Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE34
8.85972912	Montenegro17
8.91158796	Montenegro9
8.94688773	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
9.08308318	Kosovo11

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19027
2.30273750	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
2.59194907	Veneto:KF1803105
2.79435145	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
2.86134584	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
2.99923324	Veneto:ALP249
3.16733326	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
3.32314610	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
3.46916416	Veneto:ALP378
3.67575843	Veneto:ALP322
3.94244848	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
4.02770406	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
4.04682592	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
4.05028394	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
4.44221791	Veneto:ALP273
4.44679660	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
4.59373486	Veneto:KF1800751
4.64717118	Veneto:ALP250
4.68230712	Lombardy:HGDP01147
4.73779485	Veneto:Alp401
4.77225314	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
4.89055212	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
4.89563071	Piedmont:Piedmont61
4.92363687	Veneto:KF1800772
4.94056677	Corsica_o:corsica11908
5.01417989	Veneto:ALP022

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19026
4.84280910	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
4.95909266	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
5.02234009	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
5.36100737	Veneto:ALP322
5.56880598	Veneto:KF1803105
5.75306875	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
6.08157874	Veneto:ALP250
6.08220355	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
6.12695683	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
6.29306761	Veneto:ALP273
6.35488001	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
6.41566832	Veneto:ALP249
6.44658049	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
6.55673699	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
6.62443960	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
6.62989442	Veneto:ALP378
6.73304537	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
6.86781625	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
6.87538363	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
6.91088996	Piedmont:Piedmont61
7.02371696	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
7.13635761	Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley
7.15849845	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
7.39163040	Corsica_o:corsica11908
7.43647094	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19025
17.73060349	Germany:B:GermanB14
18.39160134	Portugal:Portugal11
19.44738543	UK_Wales:WalesDR68
19.44770423	Germany:B:GermanB6
20.24182304	Portugal:Portugal10
20.25791944	Germany:B:GermanB10
20.43853468	UK_Wales:WalesBK33
20.47555616	Portugal:Portugal2
20.51230606	Portugal:Portugal6
20.54036757	French_Provencerovance4409
20.64936803	UK_Wales:WalesL86
20.78892494	Portugal:Portugal7
20.96291010	UK_Wales:WalesDR84
20.99010005	French_Provencerovance4109
21.03281959	Germany:B:GermanB19
21.08988383	Corsica_o:CorsicaS13308
21.15059574	French_Provencerovance4509
21.18589861	Portugal:Portugal13
21.25987770	French_Provencerovance2508
21.29112726	UK_Wales:WalesBK58
21.41448575	Germany:German24
21.42211708	UK_Wales:WalesDR56
21.42911337	Germany:B:GermanB4
21.43534698	UK_Wales:WalesL40
21.47289920	Germany:German1

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19019
7.05703904	Veneto:ALP249
7.17744383	Veneto:ALP378
7.20432509	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
7.45457578	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
7.49099459	TSI:NA20540_SG
7.57181616	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
7.62449998	TSI:NA20801_SG
7.76158489	Kosovo12
7.80019872	UK_Wales:WalesL45
7.87432537	Lombardy:HGDP01151
8.03468730	TSI:NA20533_SG
8.04366210	TSI:NA20520_SG
8.09043880	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
8.09757371	Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
8.10327711	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
8.18150964	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
8.19978658	TSI:NA20769_SG
8.31793244	TSI:NA20526_SG
8.36393448	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 8
8.39128715	TSI:NA20770_SG
8.43756481	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
8.48185121	Veneto:ALP209
8.52213588	Liguria:ALP099
8.61712829	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
8.63304118	Veneto:ALP022

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19017
6.77671012	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
6.83544439	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
7.39447091	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
7.57680672	Veneto:ALP249
7.68506344	Lombardy:HGDP01151
7.73775807	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
8.15462445	French_Provencerovance2508
8.16283652	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
8.17372008	Veneto:ALP378
8.17757910	Veneto:KF1800772
8.27434590	Corsica_o:corsica11908
8.37891998	Veneto:Alp401
8.41379225	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
8.51998239	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
8.53238536	Veneto:ALP040
8.58785189	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
8.61175940	Veneto:KF1803151
8.61315273	Veneto:KF1803105
8.61557891	Veneto:ALP022
8.71987385	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
8.76069061	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
8.83297232	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
8.91829019	Lombardy:HGDP01154
9.04562878	Liguria:ALP099
9.14555083	Lombardy:ALP288

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I18752
1.95420060	Veneto:ALP378
2.28201665	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
2.34838242	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
2.88890983	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
2.91146011	Veneto:ALP249
3.58786845	Veneto:KF1803105
3.73510375	Veneto:ALP022
3.77014589	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
3.90362652	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
3.95580586	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
3.96821118	Veneto:ALP273
3.97635511	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
4.00932663	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
4.09047674	Veneto:ALP322
4.09452073	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
4.11192169	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
4.33395893	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
4.42736942	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
4.55929819	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP093
4.63646417	Veneto:KF1803151
4.68698197	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
5.02068720	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
5.15406636	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
5.19334189	Piedmont:Piedmont61
5.23950379	Veneto:KF1800751

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I18747
4.05071599	Veneto:ALP249
4.41426098	Veneto:ALP322
4.60245587	Veneto:ALP378
4.77503927	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
4.80566333	Veneto:ALP273
4.84873179	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
4.86381537	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
4.96893349	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP233
5.03518619	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
5.06698135	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
5.21819892	UK_Wales:WalesL45
5.36441050	Piedmont:Piedmont61
5.47263191	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
5.54823395	Veneto:ALP209
5.62768158	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy10w
5.73407360	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
5.77369033	Veneto:KF1803105
5.85544191	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
5.96776340	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
6.11389401	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
6.11463817	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700922
6.29431490	Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
6.41915103	Liguria:ALP099
6.48875951	Veneto:KF1803109
6.60484671	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I18746
2.31421693	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
3.27955790	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP346
3.28478310	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
3.29525416	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
3.43036441	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF2700960
3.50541010	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
3.58848157	Veneto:ALP378
3.69051487	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP093
3.90838841	Veneto:KF1803105
4.01752411	Veneto:KF1803151
4.02405268	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
4.34967815	Veneto:ALP249
4.46682214	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
4.60813411	Veneto:ALP022
4.61275406	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
4.75250460	Aosta-Valley:ALP227_Aosta-Valley
4.76623541	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP070
4.78270844	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
4.80388385	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761
4.93198743	Veneto:ALP250
4.94248925	French_Provencerovance2508
4.97302725	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy9w
5.08844770	Veneto:ALP322
5.09893126	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
5.28325657	Veneto:ALP273

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I18745
2.07004831	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
2.09926178	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
3.27100902	Veneto:KF1803105
3.78234055	Lombardy:HGDP01147
3.83963540	Veneto:ALP378
3.85576192	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
3.90709611	Veneto:Alp401
4.05965516	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
4.09928042	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP259
4.10015853	Veneto:ALP249
4.15505716	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP354
4.27863296	Veneto:KF1800751
4.33757997	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP081
4.41751061	Aosta-Valley:ALP225_Aosta-Valley
4.42952593	Veneto:KF1800772
4.43874982	Veneto:ALP322
4.83554547	Lombardy:HGDP01151
4.84514190	Veneto:ALP273
4.95498739	Piedmont:Piedmont61
4.97591198	Veneto:ALP022
5.03784676	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1803129
5.06445456	Veneto:ALP250
5.07372644	Veneto:ALP040
5.14175067	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
5.31201468	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:KF1800761

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I18088
2.84557551	Veneto:Alp401
2.91893816	Veneto:KF1800751
3.30242335	Veneto:ALP022
3.46079471	Lombardy:ALP288
3.57770876	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
3.61394521	Veneto:KF1800772
3.78319970	Veneto:ALP116
3.84792152	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP420
3.97224118	Veneto:KF1803109
4.01468554	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
4.05704326	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP280
4.07651812	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont119
4.09339712	French_Provencerovance2708
4.31369911	Liguria:ALP099
4.47593566	Corsica_o:corsica11908
4.48498606	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont63
4.54936259	Lombardy:HGDP01154
4.61590728	TSI:NA20581_SG
4.62750473	Veneto:ALP249
4.71518823	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149
4.72983086	TSI:NA20524_SG
4.77122626	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
4.82459325	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
4.82576419	Veneto:KF1803105
4.88129081	Lombardy:HGDP01173

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I11843
2.62594745	Veneto:ALP209
2.67576157	TSI:NA20539_SG
2.92624333	TSI:NA20520_SG
3.28592453	TSI:NA20515_SG
3.36780344	Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont136
3.40286644	TSI:NA20775_SG
3.48919762	TSI:NA20510_SG
3.66334547	Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
3.85255759	TSI:NA20768_SG
3.93685153	TSI:NA20756_SG
4.04305578	TSI:NA20518_SG
4.13716086	TSI:NA20517_SG
4.26041078	TSI:NA20524_SG
4.36785989	TSI:NA20767_SG
4.44031530	TSI:NA20801_SG
4.45788066	TSI:NA20815_SG
4.46722509	TSI:NA20818_SG
4.50319886	Piedmont:Piedmont61
4.52176957	TSI:NA20535_SG
4.57747747	TSI:NA20507_SG
4.62548376	Piedmont:Piedmont154
4.63022678	TSI:NA20526_SG
4.74285779	Tuscan:VO59
4.77117386	TSI:NA20805_SG
4.84489422	TSI:NA20785_SG

---

Distance to:	Cetina:_dup.or.1d.rel.I19017:I19020
3.56161480	Spain:Spain4
3.96998741	Spain:Spain6
5.32487559	Spain:Spain2
5.41457293	Spain:Spain3
5.84074482	Spain:Spain11
7.02833551	Spain:Spain5
7.53392992	French_Provencerovance4109
7.69130028	Corsica_o:CorsicaS00708
7.76559077	Portugal:Portugal1
7.94065488	Spain:Spain13
8.00111867	Portugal:Portugal13
8.38651298	Portugal:Portugal9
8.83572861	Portugal:Portugal6
9.38874859	Portugal:Portugal7
9.51725275	French_Provencerovance4509
9.66067803	Spain:Spain1
9.72998458	Spain:Spain10
9.73141305	Spain:Spain12
9.82100300	Lombardy:HGDP01153
10.04279344	Lombardy:HGDP01171
10.25961013	Spain:Spain8
10.34415777	Portugal:Portugal11
10.51662969	Spain:Spain9
10.61041470	Lombardy:HGDP01173
10.63096421	Portugal:Portugal10

---

Distance to:	Cetina:_1d.rel.I19027.possible.1d.rel.I19020:I1902 2
5.65951411	Ashkenazi_o:ashkenazy2e
7.20147901	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 12
7.84132642	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 10
8.02659953	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA019
8.27231527	Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop7
8.36416164	Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop10
8.71231313	Greece_Phokaia:GreecePhokaia60
8.75029142	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 4
8.82779134	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA023
8.92190563	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 16
8.93516648	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 11
9.11309497	Greece_Central:GreeceCentral7
9.32107826	Greece_Smyrna:GreeceSmyrna4
9.43690097	Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly4
9.51101992	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 5
9.55160719	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA028
9.66110242	Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop4
10.17155347	Greece_NorthEast:GreeceNE209
10.25151696	Greece_Peloponnese:GreecePelop1
10.26308920	Greece_Macedonia:GreeceMaced3
10.39869703	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 18
10.43655595	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA029
10.45057415	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA011
10.47865449	Greece_F:GreeceF28k
10.62674456	Greek_Athens:Greek_Athens_TLA025

---

Distance to:	Cetina:I19021
6.09265952	Lombardy:HGDP01151
7.64921565	Kosovo14
7.83333901	Greece_Thessaly:GreeceThessaly6
8.13660249	TSI:NA20801_SG
8.39334260	Veneto:ALP378
8.49169006	TSI:NA20520_SG
8.53820824	TSI:NA20505_SG
8.62936266	Veneto:ALP249
8.63021437	TSI:NA20769_SG
8.86248836	TSI:NA20540_SG
8.86600812	Piedmont:Piedmont61
8.99253579	Veneto:ALP322
9.11120738	TSI:NA20533_SG
9.15007650	Kosovo1
9.19351402	Veneto:ALP209
9.21238840	Kosovo16
9.21653948	Greece_Central:GreeceCentral9
9.22023319	Romania:Romania6
9.31178286	Kosovo8
9.42150200	Kosovo11
9.44312978	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP506
9.44600445	Albanian:AL9
9.45638409	Albanian:AL12
9.52326625	Friuli-Venezia-Giulia:ALP235
9.52698798	Greek_Thessaloniki:Greek_Thessaloniki_GREEKGRALPOP 8

[Jovialis]

I'm going to reiterate that we still need samples from tribes like the Oscans, Lucanians, and Samnites to get a better picture, to properly deduce the "northern" ancestry. But Cetina is a good fit for now, especially for Puglia, where the culture has many artifacts. With the inclusion of those tribes, I expect the nebulous Yamnaya_Samara admixture will go down, as it did with Cetina, and go to an appropriate level that would have arrived with Ancient Greeks (Yamna + Minoan)

[Jovialis]

Salerno sample is surprisingly more northern than the other Campanian and Naples samples. Maybe it has something to do with that green spot on the map?

[Jovialis]

Not only Ancient Greeks, and Bronze-Age Cetina, but other Balkan immigrants from the Iron Age would have been genetically similar. Maintaining the genetic profile. Aegean_BA + Slovenian_IA. Slovenian_IA which is basically similar to Cetina; but pulled a section north of them. There's a reason why Balkan_IA samples overlap with Southern Italians up to Tuscany.

[Francesco]

Salerno sample is surprisingly more northern than the other Campanian and Naples samples. Maybe it has something to do with that green spot on the map?

The area on the map seems more centered around Benevento than Salerno.
The difference is indeed quite strange and interesting, since Napoli and Salerno are very close to each other and both placed by the sea.
It could be due to the Lombard principality of Salerno, but if find it strange, since I don't think there were so many actual lombards there. Anyway, that could easily be tested by YDNA.
Maybe Salerno was more heavily settled (and resettled over time) by oscan or italic - like people from the mainland, maybe even by some of those Liguri Apuani which had been deported in the Samnium by the Romans.

[ihype02]

Greek names in Pompeii (mostly among the slaves). Those Greek names represent Anatolians, Levantines and of course ethnic Greeks. In other words it is a indicator of the recent eastern origin. Pompeii was an Oscan speaking regions and it was recolonized by Romans in 80BC following the language shift from Oscan to Latin.
https://namenookdotcom.wordpress.com...le-of-pompeii/