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Thread: Breakdown of R1b subclades by French region

  1. #1
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Post Breakdown of R1b subclades by French region

    I have calculated the frequency of each of the main R1b clade in every region of France last year in order to update the R1b maps. I used Nevgen to determine the subclades of samples from FTDNA that were not confirmed by SNP testing. It seems that I forgot to post the table with the results, so here it is.

    The first row shows the number of samples. The percentages are for all haplogroups combined, not the percentage of a clade within the total of R1b.

    Note that I grouped Z56 and Z193 together as both are of Italic/Roman origin. Likewise the the Celtic Z36 and U152* are together. U152>L2 could be either, so it's in a column of its own.

    Region R1b-DF27 R1b-L21 R1b-Z56 & Z193 R1b-U152>L2 R-Z36 & U152* R1b-DF19 R1b-U106 L51/P312 Z2103 PF7562 V88 Total % R1b
    Alsace 3 4 3 4 4 10 1 1 30 43.2
    Percentages 4.32 5.76 4.32 5.76 5.76 0 14.4 0 1.44 0 1.44
    Aquitaine 13 1 3 1 18 48
    Percentages 34.67 2.67 0.00 8.00 0.00 0.00 2.67 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Bourgogne-Franche Comté 5 1 1 3 2 4 1 1 17 61
    Percentages 17.94 3.59 3.59 10.76 7.18 0.00 14.35 3.59 0.00 0.00 3.59
    Bretagne 9 17 6 5 2 39 77.4
    Percentages 17.86 33.74 0.00 11.91 0.00 0.00 9.92 3.97 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Centre-Val de Loire 6 6 3 1 3 3 22 68.6
    Percentages 18.71 18.71 0.00 9.35 3.12 0.00 9.35 9.35 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Champagne-Lorraine 7 5 3 3 2 5 1 1 27 46.8
    Percentages 12.13 8.67 5.20 5.20 3.47 0.00 8.67 1.73 1.73 0.00 0.00
    Île-de-France 3 1 3 3 10 54.7
    Percentages 16.41 5.47 0.00 16.41 0.00 0.00 16.41 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Languedoc 3 1 1 2 1 2 10 55
    Percentages 16.50 5.50 5.50 11.00 0.00 5.50 0.00 11.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Limousin-Auvergne 7 3 5 1 16 53.3
    Percentages 23.32 9.99 0.00 16.66 0.00 0.00 0.00 3.33 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Midi-Pyrénées 5 1 3 1 10 55
    Percentages 27.50 5.50 0.00 16.50 0.00 0.00 0.00 5.50 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Nord-Pas-de-Calais 6 2 2 1 3 1 15 55.2
    Percentages 22.08 7.36 0.00 7.36 0.00 3.68 11.04 3.68 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Normandie 15 16 1 9 2 13 3 1 60 63.2
    Percentages 15.80 16.85 1.05 9.48 0.00 2.11 13.69 3.16 1.05 0.00 0.00
    Pays de la Loire 8 10 1 7 1 1 3 2 33 70.2
    Percentages 17.02 21.27 2.13 14.89 2.13 0.00 2.13 6.38 4.25 0.00 0.00
    Picardie 4 3 3 10 54.2
    Percentages 21.68 0.00 0.00 16.26 0.00 0.00 16.26 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Poitou-Charentes 20 9 4 9 2 8 5 1 1 59 63.2
    Percentages 21.42 9.64 4.28 9.64 2.14 0.00 8.57 5.36 1.07 1.07 0.00
    Provence 8 2 2 1 13 56.9
    Percentages 35.02 8.75 8.75 0.00 0.00 0.00 4.38 0.00 0.00 0.00 0.00
    Rhône-Alpes 9 1 1 3 3 3 20 60.4
    Percentages 27.18 3.02 3.02 9.06 0.00 0.00 9.06 0.00 9.06 0.00 0.00
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  2. #2
    Junior Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    DF27, z195, FT372222
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2b

    Country: USA - Missouri



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thank you, thank you, thank you, for all the aggregated French data.
    The more information there is of French genetics out there, the better.

    I should have studied the French language, but it is more practical at the time to have a reading knowledge of Spanish.

  3. #3
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    DF19>DF88
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J2a1a1e

    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting split for DF19. Normandy and Nord-Pas de Calais point to northern sourcing.
    Languedoc was a Visigoth center, but none of the probable Visigoth samples so far have turned up DF19, so it may be something completely different (Franks or later).
    The fact that none shows in Brittany makes me think DF19 wasn't high in Britons prior to Roman times (when they entered Britain as auxiliaries/foederati).
    I'm mildly surprised to see none in Alsace, but all the numbers are so low, it may just not be statistically significant anywhere.

  4. #4
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Well, the "Celtic" lines have surprisingly low percentages. I suppose about 9% of the "Italic" lineages is good for Provence; surprised by the 35% DF27.


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  5. #5
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b- DF27 BY27831*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1 * (no subclade)

    Ethnic group
    mixed french, especially norman
    Country: France



    if not inventoried, you can add for next update one Norman more for DF27 (Z195- R-BY27831* Yfull [COLOR=green !important]id:YF083613[/COLOR]
    FRA [FR-50]fra
    or R-BY27832* for FTDNA).

  6. #6
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b- DF27 BY27831*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1 * (no subclade)

    Ethnic group
    mixed french, especially norman
    Country: France



    if not inventoried, you can add for next update one Norman more for DF27 (Z195- R-BY27831* Yfull id:YF083613
    FRA [FR-50]

    or R-BY27832* for FTDNA).

  7. #7
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: UK - Scotland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    @Maciamo

    Any chance of a similar breakdown for Italy, Spain, etc?

  8. #8
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, the "Celtic" lines have surprisingly low percentages. I suppose about 9% of the "Italic" lineages is good for Provence; surprised by the 35% DF27.
    I think R1b DF27 is the predominant lineage among Western Celts other than R1b L21

  9. #9
    Regular Member BillMC's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    It is interesting to note the relatively high levels of R1b-U106. I expect that this will represent Frenchmen decended from the people who gave France its name: the Franks.

  10. #10
    Elite member spongetaro's Avatar
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    Thank you very much.

    I wonder which specific branches of U152, DF27, Z2103, E1b and J2 could be associated with what the ancient authors called the "Ligurians"

  11. #11
    Regular Member Regio X's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    FTDNA database

    Number of Y-DNA testers with French flag to date: 3248
    R1b: 1902 (58.56%)

    Among these 1902 R1b testers with French flag,

    Confirmed for R-DF27: 479 (~18.5%)
    Confirmed as non-R-DF27: ~1038

    Confirmed for R-U152: 388 (~15%)
    Confirmed as non-R-U152: ~1129

    Confirmed for R-L21: 304 (~11.7%)
    Confirmed as non-R-L21: ~1213

    Confirmed for R-U106: 249 (~9%)
    Confirmed as non-R-U106: ~1373

    Confirmed for R-Z2103: 35 (~1.2%)
    Confirmed as non-R-Z2103: ~1621

    Other R1b: ~3%

    Other haplogroups: 41.44%
    I1: ~8.86%
    J2: ~7.26%
    I2: ~6.34%
    G: ~6.28%
    E: ~5.72%
    R1a: ~2.49%
    J1: ~1.50%
    T: ~1.07%
    ...
    Last edited by Regio X; 28-07-22 at 21:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BillMC View Post
    It is interesting to note the relatively high levels of R1b-U106. I expect that this will represent Frenchmen decended from the people who gave France its name: the Franks.
    High levels??? A country named after Germanic peoples should have way more U106.
    That's superrare.

    It's even more Hispanic than Frankish.
    Only 16% in the northern regions and in the center drops to 10%.

    What happened during the Middle Ages or the French Revolution??
    May be the low birth rates of the XVIII and XIX century??

  13. #13
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Elite conquests don't leave much of a trace in the population at large. How much of the Huns and other Siberian tribes is left in modern Hungarians? How much U-106 is left in Italy once you move beyond the marches of the Veneto? Not much even there.

    You should go back and read Ralph and Coop. You can see it in the autosomes as well.

    I saw a paper just recently which looked back at genealogies and found the highest classes and the lowest classes leave far fewer descendants than the middle classes even in relatively modern times. I'll try to find it.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    "In the first expansive period, from 2500 BC to about 2000 BC, L21 and its subclades were founded, split and expanded throughout the Atlantic Beaker range. Sometime later in the middle Bronze a second expansion occurred and the expansion extended to Scotland."

    "...we see the principal ‘Western R1b’ haplogroups R-DF27, R-L21, R-U106 and R-U152. Flood (2016) regards these as the genetic expressions of separate settlements - R-L21 in the south-west English mining and religious settlement, R-U106 around the North Sea, R-U152 on the Rhone, in Lombardy and the Cisalpine area, while R-DF27 represents the original Iberian settlement."

    "Ireland is particularly important for L21. A Bell Beaker arsenical bronze smelting industry at Ross Island in the south-west of Ireland dates to 2400 BC, when the local sulpharsenide ores were smelted to produce most of the arsenical bronze axes used in Britain. Traded artefacts from the site have been found in the south of Britain, while large numbers of artefacts using Cornish gold have been found in Ireland.12 A long-suspected relationship between Bell Beaker peoples and R1b DNA has now been confirmed by the sequencing of the first ancient Bronze Age genome in the Isles (Cassidy et al. 2016). Remains at Rathlin Island off the north coast of Ireland have been dated to 2050 BC and are L21>DF21, the largest subclade of L21 prior to the Christian era."

    "It appears that the Beaker expansion hit its carrying capacity quite quickly, because after about 2000 BC there are few new branches in the L21 haplotree until the Common Era. One exception is very significant branching in the L513/DF1 subclade about 6 SNPs or 800 years from the formation of L21. This might correspond to a mid-Bronze population expansion in Scotland; a late Scottish Bronze Age where arable land expanded at the expense of forests; perhaps because all suitable land had been cleared in England and by this time and settlers turned to more marginal land in Scotland. This may have occurred as late as the Bronze Age Climatic Optimum around 1600 BC, when climate change made settlement further north more practicable."

    https://www.academia.edu/24686284/Th...redistribution
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    High levels??? A country named after Germanic peoples should have way more U106.
    I thought it was a comment from Cristiano Viejo

    Why SHOULD a population have a certain amount of a certain haplogroup according to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I thought it was a comment from Cristiano Viejo

    Why SHOULD a population have a certain amount of a certain haplogroup according to you?
    From Cristiano Viejo 🙄🙄🙄.
    Well maybe it's because France comes from Frank.
    And always seemed like a very unitarian nation.
    Way before strong states existed in the rest of Europe, there was the French Monarchy.

  17. #17
    Elite member spongetaro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mmiikkii View Post
    From Cristiano Viejo ���������������� �.
    Well maybe it's because France comes from Frank.
    And always seemed like a very unitarian nation.
    Way before strong states existed in the rest of Europe, there was the French Monarchy.
    What percentage of R1B U106 should Aquitanian, Provencal and French Basque have according to you?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    What percentage of R1B U106 should Aquitanian, Provencal and French Basque have according to you?
    Who was talking about the South should have how much U106.

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