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Thread: Ottoman Empire (Balkans)

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    listen what he says,

    Maybe because gave humans free expression away from the tabboo of east Christianiity?

    You choose the narrative of enlightenment born out of the lodges of the West, in opposition to the Christian faith. I respect your opinion but I disagree, the Greek ethnos suffered and continues to suffer in pursuit of these so-called ideals, on the contrary it always expanded and flourished under the guidance of the Christian faith, and that includes the Ottoman period also.

    Today, Greece is a semi-functioning/semi-failed post-colonial nation-state that finds itself financially (and culturally) bankrupt every 50-80 years or so, with no international scope, no growth or prosperity and grim outlooks for the future for its children, a contracting organism that clings to an ideal of a glorious ancient past that has little relevance to its contemporary dilemmas of survival.

    It's a sad state of affairs.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    You choose the narrative of enlightenment born out of the lodges of the West, in opposition to the Christian faith. I respect your opinion but I disagree, the Greek ethnos suffered and continues to suffer in pursuit of these so-called ideals, on the contrary it always expanded and flourished under the guidance of the Christian faith, and that includes the Ottoman period also.

    Today, Greece is a semi-functioning/semi-failed post-colonial nation-state that finds itself financially (and culturally) bankrupt every 50-80 years or so, with no international scope, no growth or prosperity and grim outlooks for the future for its children, a contracting organism that clings to an ideal of a glorious ancient past that has little relevance to its contemporary dilemmas of survival.

    It's a sad state of affairs.
    I choose the personal will to follow christianity,
    and not the forced by state,
    I choose the open mind that may accept christianity,
    and not the Theocracatical view of state.
    WE ARE GREEKS, WE ARE NOT IRANIANS,
    OUR BIGGEST ENEMY IS THEOCRACY, NOT RELIGION,

    and NO, modern Greek State and nation suffer for nation identity,
    We still have the dilema of West or East Or God provide, etc, that had all last Byzantine emperrors.

    ally with West? or stay stick with Theocracy? or turn the faith?

    only today we are worse, we also have the alternative solution of Russian Orthodox influence which effect too strong on our political desicions.

    NO if I can call you my Friend, Jesus told us to turn the other cheek if slapt, But he also ask the slave at the judge, WHY YOU SLAPT ME?

    Besides deep inside me I am still a pagan from Makedonia mountains, distinguish divine powers and will.
    Thank God, for the return of Philosophy from the West back to its homeland via Enlightment,
    Thank god for return of democracy and peoples free speach instead of Byzantine Despotism back to its homeland.

    and believe I have been more than 24 times to mt Athos, where byzantion still exist,
    and the most wonderfull and brave souls I found were down at the desert.
    and I respect them, all, I spend months there, learning discipline, but shelf discipline, not obey discipline,

    That is our difference, a slave can be rich, but will always be a slave,
    AND JESUS (If you are Rum as you say) DOES NOT WANT US SLAVES.

    That is why i could spill my blood in battle for modern (sometimes corrupted Greece) but never for an absolutarian emperror or a Despot.
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  3. #28
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Christians did have rights in the Ottoman empire, the Christian Greeks were the artisan/entrepreneurial elite of Ottoman society and let's not discount the Phanariote crowd, essentially the bureaucratic ruling class of the empire, at some point even given the complete administration of vassal states such as Moldowallachia.

    Greeks were under the protection, due to their high value, of the Ottoman establishment in Rumelia, served as officers and even diplomats in the Ottoman army, in comparison to other locals like Bulgarians who consisted more of the rural underclass of the region.

    Of course, the bandits of Morea did not have rights, since they comprised mostly of sectarian thugs, pirates, hired guns and mercenary gangs.
    The Klephts were sort of forced into that lifestyle given the extreme poverty of the region.You had a number of wealthy Greek families who along with the Ottoman beys taxed the peasants and this I'm sure contributed to their angst. In the Morea I believe the "hatred" for the Turks came from religious differences which may not have been as true in Rumeli or the North. Don't forget it was the Brigands led by folks like Mavromichaelis and Kolokotronis (who had a number of Brigands under his leadership) were responsible for the independence of the Morea.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Christians did have rights in the Ottoman empire, the Christian Greeks were the artisan/entrepreneurial elite of Ottoman society and let's not discount the Phanariote crowd, essentially the bureaucratic ruling class of the empire, at some point even given the complete administration of vassal states such as Moldowallachia.

    Greeks were under the protection, due to their high value, of the Ottoman establishment in Rumelia, served as officers and even diplomats in the Ottoman army, in comparison to other locals like Bulgarians who consisted more of the rural underclass of the region.

    Of course, the bandits of Morea did not have rights, since they comprised mostly of sectarian thugs, pirates, hired guns and mercenary gangs.
    Yes, the Christians had so many rights under the Ottomans. Tell that to the Armenians against whom they committed a genocide.

    You're living in a fantasy land; not someone with whom I will in the future waste any more time engaging in discussion.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    The Klephts were sort of forced into that lifestyle given the extreme poverty of the region.You had a number of wealthy Greek families who along with the Ottoman beys taxed the peasants and this I'm sure contributed to their angst. In the Morea I believe the "hatred" for the Turks came from religious differences which may not have been as true in Rumeli or the North. Don't forget it was the Brigands led by folks like Mavromichaelis and Kolokotronis (who had a number of Brigands under his leadership) were responsible for the independence of the Morea.
    Klepths and Armatoloi was the same thing,
    if you pay them to pass your mercandise and guard it they were Armatoloi,
    If you did not, they steal part of it from you as Klepths.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, the Christians had so many rights under the Ottomans. Tell that to the Armenians against whom they committed a genocide.

    You're living in a fantasy land; not someone with whom I will in the future waste any more time engaging in discussion.

    Angela, sure, in his school books,

    Ask Eupator,
    Could a Turk marry a A Christian Balkan girl?
    Could a Balkan (Greek Serb Bulgarian Albanian) marry an Ottoman girl?

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    The fullest surviving criminal code from this period is traditionally called the
    Kanun of Suleyman the magnificent, and probably dates from 1534-45, the middle years of his reign.
    Compared wit the law of Stefan Dusan, it is positively humane:
    although there some punishments involving death or mutilation (hanging for burglars, branding for pimps,
    and the amputation of a hand for those guilty of major thefts), most of the penalities consist of
    fines or floggings - even for morally serious offences such as fornification. Interestingly,
    the fines for 'unbelievers' (Christians and Jews) are set at one-half of the fines for Muslims.


    For those who chose to become Muslims,
    the immediate economic benefit was a reduction in taxation: above all,
    they were freed from the cizye. This was a special tax on non-Muslims


    Other taxes, such as the peasants ispence or resim-i cift, were set
    at a slightly lower rate for Muslims. But on the other hand Muslims had to
    pay zekat or alms-tax, which was not paid by Christians; and, as we have seen, the fines
    on Muslims in the criminal courts were twice as heavy.




    According to standard Islamic
    regulations, Christian communities were
    permitted to maintain existing
    church builidings, but not
    to extend them without special
    permission. Such permission, for extensions or
    even completely new churches, was in fact given
    quite frequently: there was widespread rebuilding
    of churches and monasteries in the area of the Patriarchate
    of Pec in the second half of the sixteenth century.
    Generally speaking, monasteries were allowed to keep their
    estates, and in some cases they were even granted some
    of the tax privileges associated with vakif status.


    Under traditional Islamic law it
    was of course meritorious at an
    individual level to convert people to Islam;
    but Christians and Jews in general were zimmi (people of protection),
    which meant their status was subordinate but protected by law.
    They had various legal disabilities; they were not allowed
    to bear arms (a prohibition widely disregarded in the Albanian lands);
    and they were forbidden to wear certain Islamic items of dress. There were
    also more strict prohibition against insulting the Islamic faith or trying
    to convert people from it. So long as they accepted these restrictions, the Christians
    were allowed to get on with their own religious lives, maintaining their own churches
    and even, as mentioned above, their own civil courts.

    ......................

  8. #33
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    @1337

    Yes like reading modern Erdogan;s book for elementary,

    what is next?
    Christians and especially Yunans were not gratefull for the rights given to them
    they were greed and unfaithfull so they revolt, against their Ottoman paradise they lived in,

    What about the obligations,
    what the dilmi, Should dilmi allow 'blood taxation'?


    DO NOT FORGET, Suleiman the magnificent (history name him such, so I respect it)
    read the Quran that when you sleep is like being in a kind of death.
    So he order to murder Imbrahim Pargali his Grand Visier, when he (Suleiman) is asleep,
    and by this Fetva he was innocent of his death, although he order it !!!!!!!

    Machiavelli, Raspoutin, even Hitler are innocent in such paranoia!!!!

    Anyway the betrayal of Pargali is also the primary split among GrecoRomans and Ottomans,
    the trust that Mohamet the defiler try to input to secure a productive state, is betrayed,
    After the Polish Win at Siege of Vienna, Ottoman will never stand foot to restore old glory,
    and if were not the Kurds, who pay it being a no country nation,
    and Lenin who support Kemal with guns and Gold,
    Turkey today maybe would be a at least 50% less country,

    BTW
    If you are trully an Albanian, then you know Albania was almost absorved by Ottomans, in such condition that Albania could named as Western Turkey a Century before,
    like the Kurds, you may had no country of yours,

  9. #34
    researcher eupator's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, the Christians had so many rights under the Ottomans. Tell that to the Armenians against whom they committed a genocide.

    You're living in a fantasy land; not someone with whom I will in the future waste any more time engaging in discussion.

    The Armenian (and Greek/Assyrian) ethnic cleansing took place immediately after the Ottoman period and its dismantlement by the Neo-Turks who also put the old Ottoman establishment to the sword. They are two separate entities with different leaderships and political structure and goals. The Neo-Turks had the full support of several Western Euro. imperial powers of the time and were also armed by them and the Russian (Soviet) establishment of the time.

    For the Greek situation, specifically, the destruction of Pontus and coastal Asia Minor was machinated with the blessing of the British (foremost) and the French (secondary) who had already plans of securing deals with the Neo-Turks for the looting of Christian wealth (banks, factories, etc) and the transfer of the Christian populations of Anatolia to newly acquired Macedonia and Thrace by the Greek Kingdom, whose leadership was perfectly in line with everything that transpired (ie see the facilitation of the Lausanne Treaty regarding the population exchanges, first one in world history to facilitate uprooting of such magnitude) in order to create a bastion against Bulgarian (and hence Russian) expansionism to the Aegean (the 'warm seas'). Something that they achieved with great success as future events unfolded.

    With such historical issues the devil lies in the details.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    The Armenian (and Greek/Assyrian) ethnic cleansing took place immediately after the Ottoman period and its dismantlement by the Neo-Turks who also put the old Ottoman establishment to the sword. They are two separate entities with different leaderships and political structure and goals. The Neo-Turks had the full support of several Western Euro. imperial powers of the time and were also armed by them and the Russian (Soviet) establishment of the time.

    For the Greek situation, specifically, the destruction of Pontus and coastal Asia Minor was machinated with the blessing of the British (foremost) and the French (secondary) who had already plans of securing deals with the Neo-Turks for the looting of Christian wealth (banks, factories, etc) and the transfer of the Christian populations of Anatolia to newly acquired Macedonia and Thrace by the Greek Kingdom, whose leadership was perfectly in line with everything that transpired (ie see the facilitation of the Lausanne Treaty regarding the population exchanges, first one in world history to facilitate uprooting of such magnitude) in order to create a bastion against Bulgarian (and hence Russian) expansionism to the Aegean (the 'warm seas'). Something that they achieved with great success as future events unfolded.

    With such historical issues the devil lies in the details.
    The Genocide of Greek of Pontus, was a Product of Lenin and Soviets,

    ΣυνολοΡωσσικης βοηθειας απο Ρωσσια στηνΤουρκια για την Γενοκτονια Των Ποντιων
    Ιουν1920 Κωνσταντινουπολη
    6000 τυφεκια
    5000 000 σφαιρες
    13κανονια
    17600 βληματα
    Δεκ1920 βατουμι
    34000 τυφεκια
    330πολυβολα
    54κανονια
    60000 000 σφαιρες
    130000 βληματα.
    Οκτ1921
    !!!2 αντιτορπιλικα !!!!
    2εργοστασια πυριτιδας
    2εργοστασια καλυκοποιειας.
    Αγνωστοςαριθμος οπλων


    Ουτετο 1/10 δεν δωσαν ποτε στην Ελλαδα απο το1770 μεχρι το 1922
    ΜαςΞεσηκωσαν σε επανασταση το 1770 και μαςδωσαν 10 000 στολες


    Οτουρκος υπουργος Οικονομικων HasanFehmi Ataçπαραδεχεται βοηθεια απο την Ρωσσια πανωαπο 10 μυρια χρυσα ρουβλια και πανω απο220 κιλα καθαρο χρυσο,
    και αλλο 1 μυριαχρυσα ρουβλια απο την Ρωσσια στηνΓερμανια για αγορα γερμανικου οπλισμουγια χαρη της Τουρκιας.
    Γιανα κανει την Γενοκτονια των Ποντιων και Μικρασιατικη καταστροφη.
    Ουτετο 1/10 δεν δωσαν ποτε στην Ελλαδα απο το1770 μεχρι το 1922
    Ουτεδανεια δεν μας διναν.
    Καιπηραμε δανειο απο Αγγλια.


    Στομνημειο του Κεμαλ υπαρχει 1 ονομα,
    МихаилВасильевич Фрунзе Μιχαηλ Φουνζε,
    Οσχεδιαστης και οργανωτης της ΓΕΝΟΚΤΟΝΙΑΣΤΩΝ ΠΟΝΤΙΩΝ. 353000
    Οσχεδιαστης της δολοφονιας του MustaphaSuphi,
    τουιδρυτη του Κομουνιστικου κομματος στηνΤουρκια.




    СемёнИванович Аралов
    Αλλοςτουτος, μεσω GRU αποσπουσεπληροφοριες απο και για τους Ποντιους,και μετα τις παρεδιδε στους Τουρκους.

    1921Συνθηκη του Καρς και Συνθηκη της Μοσχας
    καιενω ο 1ος παγκοσμιος Πολεμος τελειωνει,βρισκει Ποντιους και Αρμενους να πολεμανστην Αρμενια και στον Ποντο κα στηνΓεωργια για λογαριασμο του Ρωσσικουστρατου.
    ΞΑΦΝΙΚΑΗ ΡΩΣΣΙΑ ΑΡΝΕΙΤΑΙ ΤΟ ΜΕΓΑΛΟ ΑΡΜΕΝΙΣΤΑΝμε Αντιβασιλεα τον ΜητροπολιτηΤραπεζουντας Και ΔΩΡΙΖΕΙ στην Τουρκιατο 30% των σημερινων Εδαφων ΤΗΣ

    Russia and Lenin did not want a Greek state at black sea, so in order to avoid such they gave gift 30% of her today land keeping only Batoymi (Vatum)that effect too much Armenia, cause the primary idea was to make a wider Armenian state, with semi-autonomous Pontus,
    treaties of Karsounta and Moscow is clear,

    offcourse what Turks did not finish continue at Russia at 1937 with Лаврентий Павлович Бéрия
    Gretseskayia Operatsia
    Πανωαπο 30 000 Ελληνες Νεκροι στην Ρωσσικηεπικρατεια
    ΕκτελουνΕλληνες χωρις καν δικαστηρια.
    even KonstantinChelpan who fought for Bolsevics, honored with Order of Lenin price, and designer of the most succesfull tank of Russia (Soviet era) t34 V2 ever which even Nazi admire.
    did not escape the execution by personal order of Stalin.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Chelpan

    offcourse the assasination of Turkish first Communist, Mustapha Suphi and the hag of Lenin with Kemal is a very dark case and action.
    maybe the myth of Enver Pasha is true, maybe not,


    On the other hand,
    Us the Greeks realize that Smyrna front was tough, and instead use Locals, we were biased to conquest all Turkey, MEGALI IDEA,
    and not only we did not stop there, but we transfer front deep outside Ankara, and also we dare to conquest Constantoupolis making operations
    Remember ChatziAnestis redraw troops, and especially ammo toThrace dreaming to congueast Con/polis.
    These ideas were not favorite to allies (Entente cordiale) so they order us to stop, and since we continue without warnings we left out of ammo,
    Allies had warn us to stop, even behind Treaty of Sèvres

    so allies stop supporting us cause exceed the treaty and our power,
    and Russia strange creates a new alliance with Turkey, helping them as no one else before.

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    Some more on devshirme

    Although the devsirme was a cruel infliction on Christian parents, it nevertheless provided the main form of upward social mobility in the early Ottoman system: this was the route by which raya children became members of the askeri class. While some may have lost touch altogether with their families, there are many cases of successful members of the dev§irme intake re-establishing contact with their areas of origin and extending their patronage towards them. 3 So sought after were the advantages that could flow from Janissary status that the Slav Muslims of Bosnia asked for, and obtained, the special privilege of sending their own sons to join this otherwise entirely Christian intake. But among the Christian villagers the devsirme was understandably unpopular; in 1565 there was an uprising against it in Albania, and some areas, such as the mining district of Novo Brdo, were granted exemption from the dev“ irme as a special privilege. 5 Albanians were particularly prized by the devsirme collectors for their physical toughness and fighting skills. Many also turned out to be canny administrators who rose to the highest offices of state: two fifteenth-century Grand Viziers, Gedik Ahmet pasha and Davut pasha, are known to have been of Albanian origin, and the total number of Albanian Grand Viziers in the history of the Empire -including many Albanians from Kosovo - is put at forty-two. Apart from creating upward mobility, the devsirme was also important in two other processes of social change: it played a part in spreading Islam in the Balkans, and it also ensured that the Ottoman ruling class became an ethnic melange of all its subject peoples. (For this reason, although the word 'Turks' was used to describe the original conquerors of the Balkans, the term 'Ottomans' will be used from now on.)

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Some more on devshirme

    I think we are reading crap,
    think after 1 century how much forced islamization is done,
    how much the ballances changes

    and believe me i do not care if deep inside you, you;re a turk, or an Ottoman era lover

    think a family with No rights or permited rights, bear 2-3 kids,
    the mothers in high danger cause that era women bear without doctors.
    and the state to take it from you, 6 years old cause you are a rayah, a Christian, or better a kuffar?
    with the promise for a brilliant future!!!!!! WOW
    remember ic oglan were sold for 2 gold coins
    can you imagine how much Pedophiliacs dreamed this?
    can you imagine your grand dad being an ic oglan?

    if you are an Albanian, tell me the Greek, who always revolt, and complain etc etc,
    Did Albanians revolt for less? YES
    and think, yes the bad Greeks eat pig, the bad Serbs piss outside toilet, the bad ... lets say Americans drink raki.
    But think, what you would do if someone took your firstborn boy 1000 km away by law?
    and you may never see it?
    what pain your wife will suffer for her hole lifetime.stop providing bitter as honey,
    your ancestors taste that bitterness.
    do not treat them again the same drink.

  13. #38
    researcher eupator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I think we are reading crap,
    The Devshirme laws you keep referring to were officially abolished in 1826 with the complete dissolution of the corps by Mahmud II.

    To put things in perspective, in other parts of the world, you had Apartheid all the way up to 1994, Jim Crow until 1965, and Marion's cases in 1992.

    As for your beloved crusaders here's a very interesting video about one of their greatest contributions to hellenic civilization.



  14. #39
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I keep coming back to Mehmet Ali's supposed scheme to slaughter the inhabitants of the Morea and replace them with Egyptians. Is there anything more to say-thank God for the West's intervention.

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    Loyal Ottoman Servants

    ‘rather negligent' by the secretary of the Propaganda Fide. (He also noted that the bishop of the northern Albanian diocese of Pulat had been imprisoned for many years in Rome, 'for having been unruly, and because of doubts about his faith'.)

    The Catholic Church in Kosovo was poor, and was frequently under pressure not only from the Ottoman authorities but also from the Orthodox Church, which tried to force the Catholics to pay it ecclesiastical dues. Within one year of the reinstatement of the Serbian Patriarchate, the new Patriarch Makarije had obtained an imperial firman (decree) that all Christians in his territory must pay their church taxes to him. 50 Such moves by the Orthodox Church, which were always eventually reversed by the diplomatic efforts of the Catholic powers in Istanbul, were a recurrent feature of Orthodox-Catholic relations: a similar firman was granted, for example, in 1661 and only withdrawn in 1665/6, thanks to the efforts of a Scottish general, Walter Leslie, who was acting as an envoy of the Austrian Emperor. A letter survives from Ndre Bogdani in Janjevo in 1664, complaining bitterly about this; he said that the Patriarch, who resided in the nearby monastery of Gracanica, was trying to extract a tribute of 100 scudi (roughly 15,000 akces) from the Catholics, and described the Orthodox - who he said were protected by the Ottomans - as the Catholics' worst enemies.

    It is certainly true that the Orthodox Church was looked on with less suspicion by the Ottoman government: the Catholics owed their religious allegiance to a foreign power, the Papacy, whereas the Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek Orthodox Churches all lay within the territory of the Empire. The finances of the Serbian Church were also linked with those of the state: as early as the 1570s the practice had grown up of Patriarchs paying a large annual ‘gift' to the Sultan (120,000 akces in 1578) for the continuance of their rights. This would lead eventually to wholesale simony, the submission of huge financial bids to the Sultan for the privilege of being appointed Patriarch. The money was recouped from an annual tax paid by each Orthodox household (twelve akces for the Church, twelve for the Patriarch in person); parishioners paid taxes, and charges for religious services, to their priests, and the priests paid a tax to their bishops. One Catholic cleric wrote of the Orthodox priests in the Pec Patriarchate in 1640: ‘they are extremely grasping, and will not administer the sacraments without payment; they also require money for giving absolution on the point of death, and they bargain for payment for giving the viaticum [eucharist for the dying]'.

    Compared with the Catholic Church, the Serbian Orthodox Church in Kosovo was certainly much larger, richer, more established and more privileged. This helps to explain why a much lower proportion of its members converted to Islam. It was also apparently skilful in using its family connections with the Ottoman administration (most of them, probably, resulting from the dev§irme system): one Catholic report in the early seventeenth century commented that the monks of Pec were all related to beys and sancakbeyis. 55 And yet, as we have seen, there were Patriarchs such as Jovan (1592- 1614) who were so determined to throw off Ottoman rule that they willingly turned to Catholic powers for help. This move happened to coincide with a new enthusiasm in the Papacy for forming 'Uniate' or 'Greek Catholic' Churches - that is, Orthodox Churches which acknowledged the primacy of the Pope and were accepted into the Catholic church

    - Kosovo: A Short History

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    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Loyal Ottoman Servants




    - Kosovo: A Short History

    hm,

    what are you talking about?
    There is no church which can put taxes,
    Where you find such crap?

    A bishop can ask rent from someone, if uses the Vakufia land (monastery or church property)
    this can be done by money, or by product,
    But a church either Catholic either Orthodox either Protestant CAN NOT PUT TAXES !!!!

    strange texts you find,

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    1610
    Marino Bizzi:
    Report of a Visit to Parts of Turkey, Bar, Albania and Serbia


    When the time arrived, we set off on our journey to the city of Prizren, which we entered at two o'clock in the morning, this city being without walls as are almost all of these towns. The priest walked through the town with some trepidation because some janissaries had recently killed one another in his house. They had gone there for a meal. The Turks claimed that the priest ought to be punished, because the murderers got away.This city contains 8,600 quite large houses, almost all of which have courtyards like rural homes in Italy. It is larger than all other towns except Skopje which is 40 miles away. Prizren is irrigated by fountains and other sources of flowing water, which turn the water mills and enrichen and enliven the city.
    Upon our arrival, we were told that some monks of the schismatic metropolitan had been waiting near the doorway of the priest's house where I was staying until one in the morning to meet me. The next morning I learned that they had only wanted to meet me. I heard nothing more of them during the three days I spent in Prizren, but on one of the mornings, the said schismatic metropolitan sent his janissary to force the priest to give him money, as usual.
    In this city, a bell rings from atop one of the many minarets which belong to the mosques. It keeps time by means of a clock built for the Turks by some Frenchmen, something quite unusual in Turkey. There are hardly more than 30 Latin homes. There is a church bearing the name of Our Lady of the Assumption, which within a short period was set on fire three times by the Turks and looted twice, in particular on the occasion of the murder among the janissaries. It has a good portico in front of it and a very large cemetery surrounded by walls. It has a chalice and paten and a small image with a silver cross, which is placed upon the altar when mass is celebrated. It had two silk chasubles with two nice tablecloths and a golden fore altar for the choir. There was no shrine, no baptistry and no holy oils. We therefore gave them some of ours. There are many schismatics in the city. They much exceed the number of the Latins, who have at their disposal only two churches out of the 80 they once had.
    Source: [Extract from: Relatione della visita fatta da me, Marino Bizzi, Arcivescovo d'Antivari, nelle parti della Turchia, Antivari, Albania et Servia alla santità di nostro Signore papa Paolo V. Published as: Franjo Racki (ed.): Izvještaj barskoga nadbiskupa Marina Bizzia o svojem putovanju god. 1610 po Arbanaskoj i Staroj Srbiji, in: Starine, na sviet izdaje Jugoslavenska Akademija Znanosti i Umjetnosti, Zagreb, 20 (1888), p. 50 156; and in: Injac Zamputi (ed.): Relacione mbi gjendjen e Shqipërisë veriore dhe të mesme në shekullin XVII. vol. 1 (1610-1634), Tiranë 1963, p. 48 241. Translated from the Italian by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 77-129.]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pashai Janinës View Post
    1610
    Marino Bizzi:
    Report of a Visit to Parts of Turkey, Bar, Albania and Serbia




    Source: [Extract from: Relatione della visita fatta da me, Marino Bizzi, Arcivescovo d'Antivari, nelle parti della Turchia, Antivari, Albania et Servia alla santità di nostro Signore papa Paolo V. Published as: Franjo Racki (ed.): Izvještaj barskoga nadbiskupa Marina Bizzia o svojem putovanju god. 1610 po Arbanaskoj i Staroj Srbiji, in: Starine, na sviet izdaje Jugoslavenska Akademija Znanosti i Umjetnosti, Zagreb, 20 (1888), p. 50 156; and in: Injac Zamputi (ed.): Relacione mbi gjendjen e Shqipërisë veriore dhe të mesme në shekullin XVII. vol. 1 (1610-1634), Tiranë 1963, p. 48 241. Translated from the Italian by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 77-129.]

    Prizren was an Albanian town back then. But turned entirely from Catholic into Muslim in the 1600's

    Lazaro Soranzo, in the late sixteenth century, writing of 'Albanians, who live as Catholics, and observing that Prizren was inhabited ' more by Albanians than by Serbs')

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    the hidden schools




    the painting is from 1715, island Tenos era0local status Francogracy
    children learn and study Greek language under candle light probably at a house of a wealthy family, or at a cell of a monk,

    Hidden school is a myth and a reality same time,
    they usually provide basic elements to read and and calculate to a basic degree, lower than elementary,
    mostly organised by families or community church in poor communities.
    there were schools that era, but rare and not affordable,
    Last edited by Yetos; 19-08-22 at 14:13.

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    Phanariote Greek Orthodox school in Adrianopolis/Edirne, 1902, Ottoman Empire.




    Everything out in the open, no need for secrecy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Phanariote Greek Orthodox school in Adrianopolis/Edirne, 1902, Ottoman Empire.




    Everything out in the open, no need for secrecy.

    Better distinguish eras,

    as you say after1902, means after 1855 sultans Firman.
    and Phanariotes means circle close to Patriarchat,

    Do not mix eras.

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    Ah, so the problem is what era we are talking about, I am glad we are getting somewhere.

    And Phanariotes were Greeks, in fact they were THE Greeks, the ethnonym was not exclusive to the pirates and the murdering thugs of morea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Ah, so the problem is what era we are talking about, I am glad we are getting somewhere.
    And Phanariotes were Greeks, in fact they were THE Greeks, the ethnonym was not exclusive to the pirates and the murdering thugs of morea.
    Ipsilantis was also from phanariotes family,

    but what is point,

    when I provide hidden school you provide from 1902 which after 1855 era,
    when we say about rights in Ottoman empire you provide rightd,

    so since you carry greek flag explaine in Greek and English,

    Could a christian m arrya Muslim girl? Could a Muslim marry a Christian girl?
    Εδυνατο Ελλην νυμφευθει Μουσουλνανα? Το Αντιθετο?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ipsilantis was also from phanariotes family,

    but what is point,

    when I provide hidden school you provide from 1902 which after 1855 era,
    when we say about rights in Ottoman empire you provide rightd,

    so since you carry greek flag explaine in Greek and English,

    Could a christian m arrya Muslim girl? Could a Muslim marry a Christian girl?

    No, they couldn't but I am not sure what is the point you are trying to make?

    Could a Christian marry a Muslim in the rest of Europe, like in Austria-Hungary? Could there even be Muslims living next to Christians in Austria-Hungary (random example, extrapolate to other medieval european spaces of the time).

    Were there mosques in the rest of Europe next to churches like there were in the Ottoman Empire for Greeks and others?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Ah, so the problem is what era we are talking about, I am glad we are getting somewhere.
    And Phanariotes were Greeks, in fact they were THE Greeks, the ethnonym was not exclusive to the pirates and the murdering thugs of morea.
    ”Murdering thugs of the Morea” pretty harsh characterization. There were atrocities on both sides but there was actually minimal bloodshed between Christians unlike the French Revolution. My family in the Morea fought to protect their villages and they yearned for autonomy religious or otherwise. Would you want an occupying force in your backyard?

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