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Thread: Ottoman Empire (Balkans)

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    Ottoman Empire (Balkans)

    Millet:

    In the Ottoman Empire, a millet (Turkish: [millet]; Arabic: مِلة) was an independent court of law pertaining to "personal law" under which a confessional community (a group abiding by the laws of Muslim Sharia, Christian Canon law, or Jewish Halakha) was allowed to rule itself under its own laws.
    The millet system is closely linked to Islamic rules on the treatment of non−Muslim minorities living under Islamic dominion (dhimmi). The Ottoman term specifically refers to the separate legal courts pertaining to personal law under which minorities were allowed to rule themselves (in cases not involving any Muslim) with fairly little interference from the Ottoman government.[11][12]
    ........

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    That the Ottoman authorities showed some tolerance to the Serbian Orthodox church
    becomes apparent through the fact that in 1557 the Patriarchate of Pec was reinstated. Orthodox Serbs now gained the status of millet; a religious community that enjoyed high levels of autonomy. This lead to Orthodox monasteries and churches being rebuilt in
    Kosovo, and revived monastic life. Through millet autonomy, Serbs were able to preserve their language, religion and ethnic and cultural individuality. Similarly, the period also saw major Islamic building projects, such as the construction of the Hadum Aga Mosque in Gjakova (1595), or the Sinan Pasha mosque in Prizren (1615). Those projects signal that while the Serbian Orthodox church was alive and well, there was also a need for new Islamic religious buildings

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    Many Catholics in Kosovo also converted to Islam due to lack of priests, pressure from Ottoman authorities and the Orthodox church.[71]The Catholic church in Kosovo was poor and Catholics were pressured to pay taxes to the Orthodox Church[72]
    According to Malcolm, compared to the Catholic church, the Serbian Orthodox church was larger, richer, more established and more privileged which led to less conversion to Islam[73]
    ........................

    In 1557 the Patriarchate of Pec was re-established and many new Orthodox churches were built.[66] Orthodox Serbs gained the status of Millet, a religious community that enjoyed high levels of autonomy.[67]

    Albanian Catholic Gregor Mazrreku reported in the year 1651 that in Western Kosovo there had previously been many Catholics but converted to Islam in order to avoid taxes and impositions.[68][69][page needed]. In Suha Reka where there had been previously 160 Catholic households, all the men had gone over to Islam[70]
    Last edited by 1337; 17-08-22 at 01:51.

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    hm

    what about devşirme ?????
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Devshirme:

    The devshirme was often resented by locals[17] though some Christian families volunteered their sons, as service offered good career options, specifically Albanians and Bosnians according to William Gervase Clarence-Smith.[18][9][19]
    This is from wiki but I will add from Noel Malcolm later to see his matter on this. Northern Albania was mostly Catholic until 18th century, And some of the countryside of Kosovo had significant Catholics until 1690.

    Islamization in Kosovo was mainly in the towns in the start, mostly product of native Christians that converted to Islam in the start rather than people that came from outside. And more Albanian Catholics in Kosovo converted compared to Orthodox Serbs is what the numbers show. And for various reasons.

    I will also add about the laws and laws of the Ottoman Empire that compare to for example the laws of the Serbian Empire. To see which empire's laws were more 'humane'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Devshirme:



    This is from wiki but I will add from Noel Malcolm later to see his matter on this. Northern Albania was mostly Catholic until 18th century, And some of the countryside of Kosovo had significant Catholics until 1690.

    Islamization in Kosovo was mainly in the towns in the start, mostly product of native Christians that converted to Islam in the start rather than people that came from outside. And more Albanian Catholics in Kosovo converted compared to Orthodox Serbs is what the numbers show. And for various reasons.

    I will also add about the laws and laws of the Ottoman Empire that compare to for example the laws of the Serbian Empire. To see which empire's laws were more 'humane'.
    I read something different

    Devshirme[a] (Ottoman Turkish: دوشیرمه, devşirme; usually translated as "child levy" or "blood tax")[3] was the Ottoman practice offorcibly recruiting soldiers and bureaucrats from among the children of their Balkan Christian subjects.[4][5][6] Those coming from the Balkans came primarily from noble Balkan families and rayah classes.[7][8] It is first mentioned in written records in 1438,[9] but probably started earlier. It created a faction of soldiers and officials loyal to the Sultan.[10] It counterbalanced the Turkish nobility, who sometimes opposed the Sultan.


    first or second male if 2
    first or second daughter if 2

    Question,
    Where Catholics considered as Rayah?

    BTW
    Read the Greek if you can, if not the english language,
    avoid Shqip, it says nothing, Search why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I read something different

    Devshirme[a] (Ottoman Turkish: دوشیرمه, devşirme; usually translated as "child levy" or "blood tax")[3] was the Ottoman practice offorcibly recruiting soldiers and bureaucrats from among the children of their Balkan Christian subjects.[4][5][6] Those coming from the Balkans came primarily from noble Balkan families and rayah classes.[7][8] It is first mentioned in written records in 1438,[9] but probably started earlier. It created a faction of soldiers and officials loyal to the Sultan.[10] It counterbalanced the Turkish nobility, who sometimes opposed the Sultan.


    first or second male if 2
    first or second daughter if 2

    Question,
    Where Catholics considered as Rayah?

    BTW
    Read the Greek if you can, if not the english language,
    avoid Shqip, it says nothing, Search why.

    Catholics were considered co religionists of Austrians who were enemies of the Ottoman Empire. 1690 revolt in Kosova was organized by Albanian Catholics Toma Raspasani and Pjeter Bogdani and supported by Albanian Muslims and Catholics from Northern Albania. against the Ottomans for example. There were of course Christians and Muslims fighting on Ottoman side too including Serbs

    None of my sources are from modern Albanian. I only use Catholic Albanian sources from the Ottoman period regarding Albanian lands when Albanian sources are used which are very reliable since nationalism back then did not exist. Also Austrian and Ottoman sources are used and Serb medieval sources. Also it does not matter what modern sources as long the person has used sources from those actual events. And varied sources. Some Albanian historians can also be serious and good. I judge it myself when i look at their sources.

    Yes, I am aware devirshme existed in the Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg was an example of that and many other Albanians. What exactly is your point about it though? How was it different from slavery from other empires? Some families didn't mind while others did, they did it to recruit soldiers. Their aim was territorial expansion rather than conversion. As long as people paid taxes.

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    Greek and modern Serb sources are not reliable at all btw


    And yes you can say Catholics as co religionists, in many cases had it far worse than Orthodox who were more privileged , your average Muslim peasant suffered the same as Christian peasants at the hands of local Muslim lords also, of course Muslims had some advantages but so did Christians and nothing stopped Christians from becoming Muslims, many did including In Greece, didn't mean one became a loyal Ottoman subject, many Christians fought in the Ottoman ranks without converting. this is also not a thread to defend the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Empire was 500years long in the Balkans, some periods were better than others, but its an Empire that was not in any case worse than others

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    Even sources from Ottoman Albania show both many Muslims and Christian Albanians despised the Turks as did others. But this thread is not about that but to debunk some myths . You also forgot devirshme apparently was abolished early from what I am reading.


    Also Muslims in the Balkans are just former Christians, many of their ancestors converted because they were possibly worse off compared to other Christians so they did it to enjoy more rights.

    Kelmendi are some I know that were rebellious and never converted and fought against Ottomans and even on Mahmut Begollis side. But they lived in mountains also.

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    Honestly I sometimes wonder had Greece remained under Western Catholic influence (prior to the schism) and the Byzantine empire was restricted to Anatolia how life in middle age continental Greece would have been different. What if Venice had seized complete control of the Morea and made it a permanent principality or the Genovese, Franks or Catalans established permanent settlements. What if Greece was under the protection of Rome and rather than the Eastern (Anatolian) Byzantines maybe we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. BTW I wonder what Greece and the Balkans would have been like had the Ottomans never entered Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Honestly I sometimes wonder had Greece remained under Western Catholic influence (prior to the schism) and the Byzantine empire was restricted to Anatolia how life in middle age continental Greece would have been different. What if Venice had seized complete control of the Morea and made it a permanent principality or the Genovese, Franks or Catalans established permanent settlements. What if Greece was under the protection of Rome and rather than the Eastern (Anatolian) Byzantines maybe we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. BTW I wonder what Greece and the Balkans would have been like had the Ottomans never entered Europe.
    Well, for one thing Greece and the Balkans might have experienced the Enlightenment, which would have made a tremendous difference to intellectual life. Church and State might have been less entangled, for another, and a civil law might have developed, not every religious group being largely governed by its own laws, which led to even more separation and distrust of non-co-religionists.

    Italy didn't escape totally unscathed. After the fight for the free communes and the recovery during the Middle Ages and the glory that was the Renaissance, Italy was torn asunder and despoiled again by foreigners: the French, the Hapsburgs with their Spanish and German troops etc., although the lack of unity, the constant warfare and jockeying for position of the different city-states and the appeals of some of them to foreign countries, let it all happen. As for the South, since the fall of Rome with a few exceptions it had been ruled by foreigners who were even more rapacious than our foreign rulers or aristocrats in the north, imo, and the Papal States were far less developed than the more northern communes because of the Papal refusal to allow modernization.

    Nor did religion always make the difference. Sicily flourished under the Muslims of that period; they were good caretakers of the land, much better, imo, than the Bourbons. In different eras, however, they stifled learning and modernization in the areas they ruled.

    European history is complex; including the on-going struggle for the control of the Mediterranean. What would that history have been like if France wasn't so often allied with the Ottomans?

    There are many, many, such what might have been.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Greek and modern Serb sources are not reliable at all btw


    And yes you can say Catholics as co religionists, in many cases had it far worse than Orthodox who were more privileged , your average Muslim peasant suffered the same as Christian peasants at the hands of local Muslim lords also, of course Muslims had some advantages but so did Christians and nothing stopped Christians from becoming Muslims, many did including In Greece, didn't mean one became a loyal Ottoman subject, many Christians fought in the Ottoman ranks without converting. this is also not a thread to defend the Ottoman Empire, the Ottoman Empire was 500years long in the Balkans, some periods were better than others, but its an Empire that was not in any case worse than others
    Christians had rights?

    the only place in Europe where neither Renaisance neither enlightment pass,

    oh really? how about the Dhilmi? how about the papper given to patriarchs that not a single convertion was done from their millet,
    when Con/polis was full of Ic oglan and Atzami oglan?
    they shell the not so clever for 2 gold coins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, for one thing Greece and the Balkans might have experienced the Enlightenment, which would have made a tremendous difference to intellectual life. Church and State might have been less entangled, for another, and a civil law might have developed, not every religious group being largely governed by its own laws, which led to even more separation and distrust of non-co-religionists.

    Italy didn't escape totally unscathed. After the fight for the free communes and the recovery during the Middle Ages and the glory that was the Renaissance, Italy was torn asunder and despoiled again by foreigners: the French, the Hapsburgs with their Spanish and German troops etc., although the lack of unity, the constant warfare and jockeying for position of the different city-states and the appeals of some of them to foreign countries, let it all happen. As for the South, since the fall of Rome with a few exceptions it had been ruled by foreigners who were even more rapacious than our foreign rulers or aristocrats in the north, imo, and the Papal States were far less developed than the more northern communes because of the Papal refusal to allow modernization.

    Nor did religion always make the difference. Sicily flourished under the Muslims of that period; they were good caretakers of the land, much better, imo, than the Bourbons. In different eras, however, they stifled learning and modernization in the areas they ruled.

    European history is complex; including the on-going struggle for the control of the Mediterranean. What would that history have been like if France wasn't so often allied with the Ottomans?

    There are many, many, such what might have been.
    Italy even divided to city states, Venice, Genoua Firenze etc etc is the mother of Renaisance,
    by providing new art codes, they change the world, the differences among pappal and state laws and needs, the Hebrew communities and the forced laws for them, created our modern Banking system
    there is an economical system called merchandilism, no matter Dutch make it science, Venice and Genoa start it,
    Merchandilism is the step before Adam Smith's theory, or maybe the spring to Adam Smith and enlighment,

    East Roman empire due to 3 dogmas,
    1 holy roman empire will never die
    2 Mercenairies are better than locals,
    3 ''I have to die before I die, So when I trully die, I won't die''
    the last is the moto of denier monks, from Kappadokia to Benedecto and Amalfi Italy at least 1/4 young males went to monasteries to live,

    Italy is priviledged to be mother of Renaisance, France and Dutch for enlightment, Germany England and North from Reformation, and Spain has its own awaking with Maurs.

    that era Balkans feed with their blood the Ottomans,
    more than 256 revolts are written in modern Greek history, but most where for taxation, or change the local ruler, etc,
    It needed Revolution Francais so people could see that a rebellion can make a nation indepedented and shelf governed,
    so the priviledges given to Serbia after AustroHungarian and Ottoman wars, and the dream of Greeks, and a kind of betray by Orlov and charine Aikaterine the Great, stars a new era in Europe.
    the Neo Greek enlightment.
    some here may not realise it. how serious is Greek revolt in modern European history.
    But Neo-Greek enlightment BROKE the Holy alliance, and the by mercy of God monarchies.
    even this offcourse was 'under the hat' of Holy alliance few years after by a 'Gods Mercy king' and needed against riots for constitution.

    @Angela lets not hide behind our fingers,
    it was the power of monasteries and the effect on population that weaken Byzantion.
    it was the power of Popes that enter Italy in to political tornadoes so not to be a primary European enlightment country,

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    Christians did have rights in the Ottoman empire, the Christian Greeks were the artisan/entrepreneurial elite of Ottoman society and let's not discount the Phanariote crowd, essentially the bureaucratic ruling class of the empire, at some point even given the complete administration of vassal states such as Moldowallachia.

    Greeks were under the protection, due to their high value, of the Ottoman establishment in Rumelia, served as officers and even diplomats in the Ottoman army, in comparison to other locals like Bulgarians who consisted more of the rural underclass of the region.

    Of course, the bandits of Morea did not have rights, since they comprised mostly of sectarian thugs, pirates, hired guns and mercenary gangs.

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    There were actually taxes that Christians didn't have to pay which gave an advantage in the end. Many Muslims also witnessed in court in favor of Christians. It's interesting how the people who managed to keep their religion, Orthodox Christians, have adapted the narrative they were the victims of the Ottoman Empire. But what about Catholics and the ones who became eventually Muslims ? Why and how did these people become Muslims in the first place is the question ?

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    Western-led "Englightenment" was a curse for the region, it broke up the Ottoman empire into highly antagonizing fractures of nation states fighting in between them (Turkish nation state included) in a typical neo-colonial/neo-imperalist style of Anglo-inspired 'divide and conquer' and Russian/Panslavic expansionism (with all the disasters that it entailed).

    For Greece, it robbed the ethnos of its real capital (Constantinople/Istanbul) and led to the obliteration/eradication of many traditional birthplaces of Hellenism since antiquity like Pontus, Asia Minor, and even the Levant and North Africa. The Greek ethnos entered the 20th century, a shadow of its former self in both size, economic prosperity and expanse.

    Truly a disaster of unprecedent magnitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Honestly I sometimes wonder had Greece remained under Western Catholic influence (prior to the schism) and the Byzantine empire was restricted to Anatolia how life in middle age continental Greece would have been different. What if Venice had seized complete control of the Morea and made it a permanent principality or the Genovese, Franks or Catalans established permanent settlements. What if Greece was under the protection of Rome and rather than the Eastern (Anatolian) Byzantines maybe we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. BTW I wonder what Greece and the Balkans would have been like had the Ottomans never entered Europe.
    this could not be done,
    East Roman empire was too weak and too Sick to be saved, after 4rth crusade,
    needed fresh ideas, new productions, new merchants, etc,
    needed to be free from the authoritan Orthodox Dogma, something that came with revolution Francais,
    needed new organisers, new principles, etc, something that Came with Capodistia and others,
    needed change and organisation of productivity in the country and not only in monasteries,
    in fact if you search better find the silk production movement from Asia minor slowly moving west ending at Morias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    There were actually taxes that Christians didn't have to pay which gave an advantage in the end. Many Muslims also witnessed in court in favor of Christians. It's interesting how the people who managed to keep their religion, Orthodox Christians, have adapted the narrative they were the victims of the Ottoman Empire. But what about Catholics and the ones who became eventually Muslims ? Why and how did these people become Muslims in the first place is the question ?
    what about Kharaj?

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Christians did have rights in the Ottoman empire, the Christian Greeks were the artisan/entrepreneurial elite of Ottoman society and let's not discount the Phanariote crowd, essentially the bureaucratic ruling class of the empire, at some point even given the complete administration of vassal states such as Moldowallachia.

    Greeks were under the protection, due to their high value, of the Ottoman establishment in Rumelia, served as officers and even diplomats in the Ottoman army, in comparison to other locals like Bulgarians who consisted more of the rural underclass of the region.

    Of course, the bandits of Morea did not have rights, since they comprised mostly of sectarian thugs, pirates, hired guns and mercenary gangs.
    oh really?
    they did all the dirty work for Sultans,
    being beuraucrats is not a priviledge,

    to become Vezirs they should convert
    they can not be judges, or lawers
    they can not be bey,

    the only they could be is doctors (cause study the corpses is 'dirty tabboo')
    and small main beuraux officers, like tax collectors,

    YES my friend Ottoman new well how to exterminate Greeks and others,
    the dirty works as concern with the dirty rayah where done by Greeks and others,
    How wise? send a Greek to gather the kharaj from another Greek, So Ottoman Sultan becomes richer with low Cost,


    BTW,
    Remove the Greek flag,
    you are not Greek,
    I doupt if you ever read modern Greek history

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Christians did have rights in the Ottoman empire, the Christian Greeks were the artisan/entrepreneurial elite of Ottoman society and let's not discount the Phanariote crowd, essentially the bureaucratic ruling class of the empire, at some point even given the complete administration of vassal states such as Moldowallachia.

    Greeks were under the protection, due to their high value, of the Ottoman establishment in Rumelia, served as officers and even diplomats in the Ottoman army, in comparison to other locals like Bulgarians who consisted more of the rural underclass of the region.

    Of course, the bandits of Morea did not have rights, since they comprised mostly of sectarian thugs, pirates, hired guns and mercenary gangs.

    Remove the Greek flag from your portrait.
    it is obvious you are not Greek.

    If the right to become artisan is compared with the obligation to give your first born is semantic to you

    then the least you do IS TO REMOVE THE GREEK FLAG from your profile,
    ANd do not put any other Balkan country Flag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Western-led "Englightenment" was a curse for the region, it broke up the Ottoman empire into highly antagonizing fractures of nation states fighting in between them (Turkish nation state included) in a typical neo-colonial/neo-imperalist style of Anglo-inspired 'divide and conquer' and Russian/Panslavic expansionism (with all the disasters that it entailed).

    For Greece, it robbed the ethnos of its real capital (Constantinople/Istanbul) and led to the obliteration/eradication of many traditional birthplaces of Hellenism since antiquity like Pontus, Asia Minor, and even the Levant and North Africa. The Greek ethnos entered the 20th century, a shadow of its former self in both size, economic prosperity and expanse.

    Truly a disaster of unprecedent magnitude.


    ????
    Enlightment is considered the era to open to all to learn sciences, a nd clear tranparent politics
    early enlighment strts with Cromwell in England and the first effort for Democracy, although he become a kind of dictator him shelf
    Beacon and Isaac newton and the science and logic above dogma,
    Then moves to France with Descartes and all the philosophical movements even Revolution Francais.

    Enlightment officialy strtas at 1715 AD
    with seeds from 1650 around.
    What has to do with the fall of Constantinoupolis?

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    WHAT IS ENLIGHTMENT?

    Beantwortung der Frage: Was ist Aufklärung? by Immanuel Kant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Remove the Greek flag from your portrait.
    it is obvious you are not Greek.

    If the right to become artisan is compared with the obligation to give your first born is semantic to you

    then the least you do IS TO REMOVE THE GREEK FLAG from your profile,
    ANd do not put any other Balkan country Flag.

    Ι think you should calm down, there are multiple readings of history.

    The Greek ethnos persevered and grew in scope and prosperity during Ottoman times, compared to the absolute state it founds itself now as a neo-colonial vassal project of Western global dominance, that is a historical fact and an opinion shared by many.

    I link to you an interesting interview/piece of Dimitris Kitsikis, that I have big respect for, to shed more light on this opinion (unfortunately only for Greek speakers).


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Even sources from Ottoman Albania show both many Muslims and Christian Albanians despised the Turks as did others. But this thread is not about that but to debunk some myths . You also forgot devirshme apparently was abolished early from what I am reading.


    Also Muslims in the Balkans are just former Christians, many of their ancestors converted because they were possibly worse off compared to other Christians so they did it to enjoy more rights.

    Kelmendi are some I know that were rebellious and never converted and fought against Ottomans and even on Mahmut Begollis side. But they lived in mountains also.
    What? officialy the last is 1705 AD

    but there is a qitap (ottoman papper) at 1738 for 50 kids at upper Makedonia, when the revolt of Meintanis happens to prevent it,
    Kasomoulis writes about it


    offcourse the onta for atzami-oglan If I am not wrong exist till 1755,
    to the last I am not sure, there is chance to be wrong

  25. #25
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Ι think you should calm down, there are multiple readings of history.

    The Greek ethnos persevered and grew in scope and prosperity during Ottoman times, compared to the absolute state it founds itself now as a neo-colonial vassal project of Western global dominance, that is a historical fact and an opinion shared by many.

    I link to you an interesting interview/piece of Dimitris Kitsikis, that I have big respect for, to shed more light on this opinion (unfortunately only for Greek speakers).


    listen what he says,
    Renaissance is a bad thing that damaged Romiosyne,

    Really the kids gathering did not hurt Romioi, but Reaissance did?
    Why? and how?
    Because it prevent the dogma on state? or because it broke the authoritarian rules in arts?
    Maybe because gave humans free expression away from the tabboo of east Christianiity?

    Today there are 4 kind of Romioi,
    1 the Patriarch, which is a Turk citizen, and lives under the laws given to him from the times of Mohamet the defiler
    2 The monastic states which live at a total authoritarian life,
    3, the after kutsuk Kainartzi Romioi who follow Russian patriarchate,
    4 The Greek archiepiscopal Orthodox Church.

    Wanted or Not Romiosyne which in Greek means Byzantium, is ended at 1463 with fall of Trebizond.
    Since then Romiosyne is druged to coma giving blood to feed the Ottomans to the point of an analogy from 4/1 become 1/1 at 1821 and 1/3 at 1920's

    the myth of Bastatzis the Smyrna emperror who will awake and with his sword and upon his horse will enter Con/polis to restablish Romiosyne is a myth,

    the hunt for eternal life in paradise, and the authoritarian rules to gain it destroyed byzantium.

    Paliaologos at the fall had 700 Genovese, 1 Turk pasha as ally, but how many Romioi,
    the same time only at Holy mountain should be 3-4 000 young and able Romioi trying to gain eternal life.
    Think how much should be at all the monasteries.

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