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Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #226
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Idontknowwhatimdoing View Post
    I didn't use Anatolia_BA as a proxy because ancient Greeks had around 30-40% Anatolia_BA like ancestry so it overlaps a lot. Later Anatolian/Caucasus admixture came much later anyway so Anatolia_BA is not relevant. I don't know how much Greek ancestry Greek_Anatolian has so i didn't use it as a proxy either.




    For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.

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    Why has this thread turned into a 10 page speculative drama? The first two pages were pretty concise in the aims and results

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Why don't you post the name of the village so I can see what a "Makedonian original" looks like. Is it because you are afraid I will know the truth about it and you try to avoid the question with cringey posts?
    Maybe you want my name also?

    Ematheia and Pieria are not so many villages,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

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    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  4. #229
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Why has this thread turned into a 10 page speculative drama? The first two pages were pretty concise in the aims and results
    Great question. It sort of got derailed as do most threads (and I'm a Greek) that involve Greeks or Albanians.

  5. #230
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    Sad but True,

    Myenean world




    Mycenean expand + also Cyprus




    BUT Proto Greek or ProtoHellenic




    ALSO

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa


    Arzawa is also called Arcadia of Asia minor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's been very hard for me to find good sources for Greek ydna. Could you provide me with a link to the papers you're using?

    Is that just R1b Z2103 or all R1b?

    Clearly, if we're trying to estimate the amount of steppe ancestry which arrived in Greece during the relevant centuries, we're not interested in very downstream clades.
    Try this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin. He provides some sources in the third post of the thread.

    I have not delved into what all the subclades of R1b in Greece are by reading the relevant papers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Good grief! No, it doesn't mean that, but what good does it do anyone to know that they once existed if we don't have them and therefore we have no idea what they actually SHOWED. It means there is NO PROOF of what they contained, and therefore no proof of the statements put forth by Blevins that there was a population replacement in the Peloponnese.

    People, let's have some logic and common sense, shall we?

    It's like Amber Heard constantly blathering about the mountains of evidence she has for her allegations, but the evidence was and is never produced, or if it's produced it's fragmentary, or the context is completely different from the one asserted, or the "evidence" is not an original document and so could have been altered.

    You wouldn't even win in traffic court with this kind of reasoning, much less put together a population genetics paper.
    I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.

    No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.

    No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.
    No doubt it's very interesting that all these empires kept tax information. Unfortunately, the papers relevant to our discussion no longer exist.

    So, to summarize, there is no proof for the claims made.


    What should interest anyone involved in discussions like this is whether facts claimed to be true are, in fact, verifiable. If they're just speculation, then the "hypothesis" should be stated as a hypothesis which might or might not be true, not as a fact upon which people can rely in coming to conclusions.

    We're all supposed to be engaged in a search for the truth of the past, yes, to the extent it can ever be known. To do that we need to be careful not to turn speculations into conclusions without the proper evidence.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    The extra CHG, I'd predict, came from 1) something (Thracian or Thracian-like?) that came down from the eastern Balkans and set the ball rolling in regards to the differentiation between mainlanders and islanders; 2) further interactions later on during Classical times when western Anatolia was basically just a part of Greece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I am just informing this honorable group that the Roman, Byzantine and Ottoman empires kept very accurate tax information. We have some extant tax rolls from the Ottoman Empire (deters or tefters). I am not aware of any Byzantine tax rolls surviving the fall of Constantinople. The Patriarchate on the other hand has some pretty detailed church records.

    No interested in contesting traffic tickets or writing a genetics paper.
    in fact my family found most before 1900 data from church written baptism of young.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.
    And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
    It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.
    And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
    It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.
    Perhaps address individuals and not "ethnicities"? These are very generalizing statements and don't differ much from other sentiments I have come across on this thread.

    With 100% or almost 100% Balkanites you are whom exactly addressing?
    Last edited by mount123; 24-08-22 at 14:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.
    It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.


    Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

    And as Lazardes et al say on p6 of their origins of the Mycenaeans/Minoans study:

    We estimated FSTof Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that
    Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and
    Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble
    present-day inhabitants from the same region

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    The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.

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    Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Sad but True,

    Myenean world




    Mycenean expand + also Cyprus




    BUT Proto Greek or ProtoHellenic




    ALSO

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assuwa

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzawa


    Arzawa is also called Arcadia of Asia minor.
    I always wondered where the proto - Greeks were driving their chariots in the mountains of Epirus.

    https://youtu.be/kNTp4kELkSY

    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
    Last edited by blevins13; 24-08-22 at 19:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.
    The future southern Arc paper
    Will include: ancient dna from cyprus
    I think as a cypriot you will find it interesting
    Maybe we will be able to see the autosomal changes in this island from neolithic to iron age
    That would be great
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

    It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.

    So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when historical truth knocks on the door.

    So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm these historical truths.

    And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...

  18. #243
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    Where can those new sample coordinates be found?

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    The initial Vahaduo calculations of relatedness to modern Greeks and Italians should be amended to include Cyprus. G25 now has new academic samples of Cypriots and Davidski has removed the outliers from before. From what I can see from my own G25 calculations, Cypriots figure prominently in the top 25, particularly the EBA Aegean and Minoan samples. This tallies with academic research.
    Where can the new Cypriot samples be found?
    Were they added to the G 25 database?
    Last edited by matadworf; 24-08-22 at 13:59. Reason: Something to add

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    And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
      pop1                pop2      est      se
                           
    1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325
    2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136
    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
      pop1              pop2      est       se
                          
    1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 
    2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141  0.000197

    As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

    Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

    Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

    And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

    This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
    pop1                pop2      est      se
    1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325
    2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136
    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
    pop1              pop2      est       se
    1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 
    2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141  0.000197

    As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

    Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

    Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

    And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

    This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.
    I totally agree with your point about modern admixture and genetic distance to the ancients. It’s just a fun comparison thing that folks take way too seriously. I mean I’m super close to that Logkas 2 sample just because of the component similarity. There’s certainly nothing alluring about a middle Bronze Age Helladic sample:)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid
    Why are you making vast generalisations? The only thing that smells, nay stinks, is your comment.

    And as Lazardes et al say on p6 of their origins of the Mycenaeans/Minoans study:

    We estimated FSTof Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that
    Mycenaeans are least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and
    Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resemble
    present-day inhabitants from the same region
    And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

    1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
    2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
    3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
    4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.

    Quote Originally Posted by mount123
    These are very generalizing statements and don't differ much from other sentiments I have come across on this thread.

    With 100% or almost 100% Balkanites you are whom exactly addressing?
    The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
    With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").


    Quote Originally Posted by eupator
    It's okay, a lot of posters feel they are the lost cousin of Achilles and Odysseus because their paid sub on mytrueancestry's PCA said so.

    So they personalize the conversation because they feel personally attacked when historical truth knocks on the door.

    So far none of my points were contested, in fact, most of the stuff other people posted with their models confirm these historical truths.

    And we haven't even began talking about modern Greek haplogroups ...
    Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.
    I refer to Byzantine historiographers and chroniclers, such as Chalcocondyles, Anna Komnenian, and more recents like Meletios. Their writings even have dedicated wiki pages these days, they are very easy to find.

    If you have criticisms about the Byzantine historiographers, I am more than happy to indulge as I am always willing to learn.

    Other than that, your post is too egotistical to address, I have a Ph.D. in ethnography, I win the 'appeal to authority' contest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    And since I've heard the "being jealous" argument repeated a bit too many times, here's a little info about myself

    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greece_BA_Mycenaean", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"))
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 24 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 169155 SNPs remain after filtering. 156076 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 169155 SNPs and 3 populations is 16 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 97 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 97 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
      pop1                pop2      est      se
                           
    1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean eptr 0.00227 0.00325
    2 Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greek 0.00792 0.00136
    Code:
    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Italy_Imperial.SG", pop2 = c("eptr", "Greek"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 56 samples in 3 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 81 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 245195 SNPs remain after filtering. 231896 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 245195 SNPs and 3 populations is 24 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 141 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 141 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 2 × 4
      pop1              pop2      est       se
                          
    1 Italy_Imperial.SG eptr 0.00957 0.00232 
    2 Italy_Imperial.SG Greek 0.0141  0.000197

    As you can see I am closer to both the BA Mycenean samples and the Roman_Imperial samples in Reich's database compared to the Greek average (what Lazaridis' 2017 used).

    Do you think this is because I am also a lost cousin of those Myceneans or is it because of my particular regional mix? Can you now begin to comprehend the argument I am trying to make?

    Shall I also partake in this carnival of pretense and wipe out 2K+ years of population history and perform cultural and historical erasure on my own people's collective memory and tradition?

    And for Yetos: The Greeks of Thrace were Phanariotes, end of story. They were Ottoman friendlies, public servants and highly decorated military men a lot of them. Their antagonizers were the Bulgarians, not the Ottomans, they lived rich lives in one of the wealthiest territories of the known world, the dissolution of the Empire forced them into poverty in a hostile state (Kingdom of Greece) where they had to start over from nothing.

    This is the historical truth and no verbosity against them can deny it.
    All of the Greeks of Thrace? Eastern, Western and Northern Thrace? This is just from memory while I am drinking my coffee, but 300,000 Greeks from all those areas found their way to Greece from 1878-1923.

  25. #250
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    And this comment is not even relevant, it's a clear nonsequitur, since I've never implied that Mycenaeans are not least differentiated from populations from Greece,Cyprus, Albania and Italy; I'll try to make it simple for you:

    1) Among those populations, it is ascertained that the closest are Peloponnesian Greeks and Cretans and south Italians, and to the extent Cretans can be used as a proxy for other Greek islanders, also other Greek islanders are pretty close.
    2) The genetic literature's consensus is that it is so because those populations had the fewest amount of external genetic input; to keep the discussion on topic, specifically that Peloponnesian Greeks (southern ones particularly) and Greek islanders have the lowest input from Slavic and hence are the closest to ancient Greeks, and more broadly Greeks as a whole are modelled as ancient Greeks + Slavs.
    3) Other Greeks from particular ethnic backgrounds and Albanians in this thread deny point 2 and put forward laughable claims, namely that actually Greeks are made up from a very diverse array of different populations whose overall mix somehow approximates what you'd get if you mixed ancient Greeks and Slavs.
    4) Since point three is what happens when you throw aside Ockham's razor and decide to take the pataphysical approach, I can't deduce it is motivated by ethnic inferiority complexes.



    The when-clause ought to make clear that I refer to those posters that insist on their delusions, since what I said applies when they engage in said behaviour, but to avoid misunderstanding, of course I have no intention of accusing all members of an ethnicity, since it would be dumb and directed towards people that aren't an annoyance.
    With "100% or almost 100% Balkanites " I am referring to how certain Albanian posters here describe themselves as "100% descendants of ancient Balkanites" (when they insisted that "it is no coincidence that they are similar to Logkas 2") BUT they also insist that Greeks just "happen" to cluster close to them because Greeks would be heavily admixed with Slavs whereas they are not (so they claim, whatever meaning you want to give to "heavily").




    Your "historical truths" are wild speculations that fail many epistemological standards in historiography (said otherwise, you make a lot of inductive mistakes, you lack understanding of the larger picture, and show no critical appraisal of the information you read in ancient sources), I suggest you read some books about the methods and standards used in historical research.
    I do agree that there has not been any significant population turnover in Greece since the Classical era. We don’t really know what happened during the dark ages there could have been an influx from the North and another from the Western or Eastern Med. We do know that the most substantive genetic input came from Southern Slavs who most likely raised the Steppe levels in Continental Greece (not the more isolated regions of the Peloponnese) I honestly don’t believe there was much additional gene flow into continental Greece or mass migrations from coastal Anatolia during earlier periods. Were their settlers from the East possibly but certainly nothing on a large scale.History says it was usually the other way around; Greeks leaving the mainland for a better life. So yes at this point I’m going with what the paleogenetecists are saying about Greece; Deep Mani and Tsakonia have the least amount of Slav admixture and are closest to Crete. The rest of the Peloponnese, particularly Messinia including Western Mani, Elis, Argolis, and Arcadia are much closer to Thessaly and Macedonia due to increased Steppe or whatever you want to call it.
    Last edited by matadworf; 24-08-22 at 15:17. Reason: Need to change

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