Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Angela said:
If the leaks are correct, there is R1b-Z2103. What is the percentage of that lineage in Greece?
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It's very small percentage, there's only 15 of us in the Greek FTDNA project (with confirmed Greek paternal ancestry).

Z2103 in modern Greeks is either Arvanitic-related Z2109 or the "eastern" (Armenian/Iranic?) L584.
 
Angela said:
As always, you claim you have evidence but can never provide it, not even precise percentages for precise yDna lines in precise areas.

As far as Illyrians are concerned, autosomally, Northern Italians come out pretty close to ancient Illyrian samples. Doesn't mean Northern Italians are descended from them, of course. It's probably just that the same or similar groups of people went both to Northern Italy and the eastern Adriatic coast. If you knew anything about population genetics you would understand that. As to how close modern Albanians are to those ancient Illyrian samples, I know some people posted samples, but I don't remember the results and don't care. Why would I?

Why don't you run the calculators on your own data and let us know if you're closer than Northern Italians or not since it bothers you so much.

I just needed to get you to reveal, in your own words, what this is all about; as always, there are no Greeks, only Albanians. It worked.

Now you go on ignore. You're just a t-roll.
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You started with silly, continued with Heard lack of evidence, concluded with t-roll.

You have been a lawyer correct:


Evidence can take the form of testimony, documents, photographs, videos, voice recordings, DNA testing, or other tangible objects.

So I provided the ocular testimoni of Fallmerayer (he has seen Greece himself), I provided Byzantine references for transfer and movements, i indicated that DNA analysis of George Stamatoyannopoulos might included other transfer populations not counted for, not to mention other deficiencies of his study that have been discussed before. I indicated that Slavic toponyms in Morea are more that in Serbia. I indicated that the majority of Male lines in the modern populations have not been found in Mycenaean Greeks.

You on the other side offered only Stamatoyannopoulos as the expert of the field. Heard approach you said, I say more like Heard’s lawyer.





Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
eupator said:
Stop being so unnecessarily aggressive, man.

And you claim you are "Makedonian original" but with your own admission you have Pontic roots, so that's the originality part out of the window.

Pontics are not Macedonian, we never were and never will be, we have our own culture and tradition that is Ionic in its Greek part, not Doric/Macedonian, so stop being so cringe-worthily over the top.
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I do not know where you extract this,
But trully off you are, Pieria mts, are and never inhabited by Pontic people, and neither by Slavs, the only village has Slavic toponym is at West side, and I am small connected with this is at Kozane preferacture,

My block of villages has nothing to do with other villages, and neither with valley Rumluki Makedonians,
neither the Epirotes and Souliotes that came to Pieria mtns. neither the Vlachs of Olympos.

So plz cut the crap, Yes Igrew up in mahala full of Pontic Greeks, and as a kid, my father send me to learn culture and dances of minor Asians, Manissa Zeimbeks.
Yes I learn Zeimbekiko before learn Zourna. But not as you say.
 
mount123 said:
The rumours about Mycenaean samples from Pylos are about R1b-PF7562 not R1b-Z2103. R1b-PF7562 as a lineage in modern Greeks is insignificant. I do however expect R1b-Z2103 to perhaps also show up.
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There is one R1b in Ancient Greek samples that Davidski spoke about and it's not Z2103 but I don't know if it is the same one though.
This was revealed years ago. Do those papers take a decade till they are published?
 
The one thing Khan mentioned in his article about a second wave of migration during the early Bronze Age interests me and I guess that’s where the CHG is coming from but my question is; did that migration have two routes; sea and land? You see the CHG admixture in both the Northern Helladic samples as well as Minoan and Mycenean in fairly equal amounts. My other question is how is possible that the CHG admixture is higher in moderns than ancients? Was there possible additional Anatolian admixture during the Classical, Hellenistic or Byzantine periods and to such a degree that it would increase the CHG or am I misreading this?
 
Yetos said:
I do not know where you extract this,

My block of villages has nothing to do with other villages, and neither with valley Rumluki Makedonians,
neither the Epirotes and Souliotes that came to Pieria mtns. neither the Vlachs of Olympos.

So plz cut the crap,.
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I misunderstood you about the Pontic roots.

As far as your village is concerned, talk is cheap, what is the name of village?

I know your type, if anyone was to believe your stories, you all are Alexander the Great's lost cousins.
 
matadworf said:
My other question is how is possible that the CHG admixture is higher in moderns than ancients? Was there possible additional Anatolian admixture during the Classical, Hellenistic or Byzantine periods and to such a degree that it would increase the CHG or am I misreading this?
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We told you but you don't want to hear it.
 
eupator said:
We told you but you don't want to hear it.
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Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese. So in let's say, 15th century it's possible that they were more similar to Dodecanese Islanders than to Cretans.
 
ihype02 said:
Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese.
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I don't know about this, IBD connection, I am not disputing it necessarily but I would like to see the evidence for it.

The rest is all part of Byzantine medieval history for those who want to read. Byzantine literature is good because it hasn't got an anxiety to prove ancient Greek continuity like modern forum boards and discord servers. For them ancient Greeks = pagans to be exterminated if not converted, and they did so very effectivelly with leadership like Theodosius I and II and generals like Nicephoros Phokas.
 
No I just want to understand where it’s coming from; specific migrations/historical period, etc. vs. speculation and/or hearsay. I understand the Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that makes perfect sense. I’m not super clear about the origins of that additional admixture; did it occur during the Hellenistic, Byzantine, or later migrations. Anyway I guess later samples can help clear the picture.
 
matadworf said:
No I just want to understand where it’s coming from; specific migrations/historical period, etc. vs. speculation and/or hearsay. I understand the Bronze Age migration from Anatolia that makes perfect sense. I’m not super clear about the origins of that additional admixture; did it occur during the Hellenistic, Byzantine, or later migrations. Anyway I guess later samples can help clear the picture.
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It doesn't have to be either/or.

It can be a culmination of all those periods adding new layers of admixture each time. The timing only bothers those who want to disassociate Greece from its Western Asian links (not you, personally). But Byzantium after the Bulgarian Empire's expansion is almost in its entirety based in Anatolia (+Thrace). The people who repopulated the peninsular parts after the victory of Basil II and the Macedonian Dynasty come from Anatolia (plus Armenia). These resettlements of Armenians, Anatolians, Isaurians, etc, added layers to the pre-existing population groupings in the region and so forth ...

The mileage may vary based on how successful these repopulations were.

Then you have the Ottomans who also moved people around in the same fashion, don't forget that jurisdictional system of the Ottomans is almost a direct continuation of the Byzantine's thematic system, common practices, etc.
 
ihype02 said:
Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Maniotes from West Taygetos who are the most Slavic admixed people in the Peloponnese. So in let's say, 15th century it's possible that they were more similar to Dodecanese Islanders than to Cretans.
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Could you please provide a link to the source for that information?

The question is not whether the Deep Maniotes share high IBD with West Taygetos; it's what was the direction of the gene flow, and which were the alleles involved.
 
The question is not whether there was some additional gene flow from Anatolia to Greece during the Roman Era and/or the Byzantine period. I would assume there was. There certainly was to Italy.

The question is whether it amounted to population replacement.

As an outsider all I see from some posters is an attempt to prove replacement, which they cannot prove, btw, and which probably stems from jealousy.
 
Here I must add 2 women of high nobility that lived there,

Anna of Savoy,
Helena Dragac (that is Constantine Dragaces Palaiologos)
 
Angela said:
As an outsider all I see from some posters is an attempt to prove replacement, which they cannot prove, btw, and which probably stems from jealousy.
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Yes, us Ottoman Greeks, we are very jealous of the pirate clans of Morea and their tiny bankrupt kingdom with the foreign king that managed in 100 years to be the catalyst that eradicated and uprooted the entirety of Hellenism in Anatolia, Caucasus and the Levant/Egypt, so they can feed their petty little feuds and greed. The perfect puppets for their imperialist puppeteers.
 
Angela said:
Could you please provide a link to the source for that information?
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I read it on Anthrogenica from 2 (trusted) Greeks who have worked on their coordinates I am not sure how they are able to figure it out. They said Deep Maniotes share high IBD with Taygetos and other Maniotes and not with Cretans as some assumed.

Maniotes became isolated during the Ottoman Empire, so there was quite some mixing going on there. A Deep Maniote viewed a Maniot from Taygetos as his own group and not the the same as an Arcadian for example.

It is generally believed that pre-migration period Roman Greeks were very similar to Dodecanese Islanders, only a little less Anatolian and more Mycenaean. But this is only an opinion not something I know as a fact.
 
eupator said:
Yes, us Ottoman Greeks, we are very jealous of the pirate clans of Morea and their tiny bankrupt kingdom with the foreign king that managed in 100 years to be the catalyst that eradicated and uprooted the entirety of Hellenism in Anatolia, Caucasus and the Levant/Egypt, so they can feed their petty little feuds and greed. The perfect puppets for their imperialist puppeteers.
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There is no such thing like Ottoman Greeks, Rayah maybe, only in your mind could exist such.
 
Yetos said:
There is no such thing like Ottoman Greeks, Rayah maybe, only in your mind could exist such.
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Why don't you post the name of the village so I can see what a "Makedonian original" looks like. Is it because you are afraid I will know the truth about it and you try to avoid the question with cringey posts?
 
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