Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 12 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast
Results 276 to 300 of 602

Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #276
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    They aren't they plot where you would expect them, with Albanians. Overall abit more northern than the rest of the mainland.

    I don't have time to waste on pendantics.

    The GREEKALPOP samples in the Reich HO dataset with reference to Thessaloniki in the .anno file (originally from Lazaridis 2014) have various levels of West Asian admixture that puts them in between Albanians and Armenians, next to Crete, as you can see in their FST distances below:

    fst(prefix, pop1 = "Greek_Thessaloniki", pop2 = c("Cretan.DG", "Armenian.DG", "Albanian.DG"), adjust_pseudohaploid = FALSE)
    ℹ Reading allele frequencies from packedancestrymap files...
    ℹ eptrfamilyHO.geno has 14317 samples and 597573 SNPs
    ℹ Calculating allele frequencies from 19 samples in 4 populations
    ℹ Expected size of allele frequency data: 86 MB
    597k SNPs read...
    ✔ 597573 SNPs read in total
    ! 584443 SNPs remain after filtering. 409001 are polymorphic.
    ℹ Allele frequency matrix for 584443 SNPs and 4 populations is 61 MB
    ℹ Computing pairwise f2 for all SNPs and population pairs requires 486 MB RAM without splitting
    ℹ Computing without splitting since 486 < 8000 (maxmem)...
    ℹ Returning fst blocks
    # A tibble: 3 × 4
    pop1 pop2 est se
    <chr> <chr> <dbl> <dbl>
    1 Greek_Thessaloniki Albanian.DG 0.00888 0.00306
    2 Greek_Thessaloniki Armenian.DG 0.00498 0.00113
    3 Greek_Thessaloniki Cretan.DG 0.00197 0.00112

  2. #277
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Is there any of the fighting leader of the Greek Revolution not Arvanites (Albanian - Christian)?

    I don't know for sure, mate, I haven't read too much for the particularities of that period, there were alot of Albanophones and Arvanites in their ranks for sure.

  3. #278
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    18


    Country: Greece



    I don't have time to waste on pendantics.

    The GREEKALPOP samples in the Reich HO dataset with reference to Thessaloniki in the .anno file (originally from Lazaridis 2014) have various levels of West Asian admixture that puts them in between Albanians and Armenians, next to Crete, like you can see in their FST distances below:
    I don’t know what GREEKALPOP represents. You mentioned the Thessaloniki samples from the Lazaridis study. The samples labeled "Greek Thessaloniki" are clearly located northeast of the "Crete Armenoi" high steppe sample and not with the blue Cretan dots. Regardless though i don’t see how any of this is relevant? There were no models involving moderns in the 2017 paper. The samples labeled "Greek Macedonia" in the "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier" study look similar (again clustering with Albanians). That is the study where models for moderns where provided.

  4. #279
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    52


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Western Thrace didn't have a lot of Greeks, the majority was in Eastern and in the Principality of Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria.
    In 1912, before any exchange of populations/ethnic cleansing/whatnot (after the short lived Bulgarian conquest in 1913 lots of Greeks got expelled or left) had about 255,000 inhabitants, 31% Greek, 55% Muslim and 13% Bulgarian.

  5. #280
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    I don’t know what GREEKALPOP represents. You mentioned the Thessaloniki samples from the Lazaridis study. The samples labeled "Greek Thessaloniki" are clearly located northeast of the "Crete Armenoi" high steppe sample and not with the blue Cretan dots. Regardless though i don’t see how any of this is relevant? There were no models involving moderns in the 2017 paper. The samples labeled "Greek Macedonia" in the "Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier" study look similar (again clustering with Albanians). That is the study where models for moderns where provided.
    The GREEKALPOP is the reference name.

    The FST distance run is the proof for the argument I made several posts ago, you can scroll back and re-read.

    The Danubian frontier paper is irrelevant to this argument, you just try obfuscate because you got dunked on by the evidence.

    Everything I referenced can be recreated by everyone in 5 mins using the open sourced tools available and the Reich dataset which is also freely available.

  6. #281
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    52


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    It is possible with Y-DNA. You can’t go wrong with that.
    In the context we discuss you can go very wrong with that.

  7. #282
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Instructions:

    Visit: https://reichdata.hms.harvard.edu/pu...ated_releases/

    Download the HO files.

    Open the .anno file and using CTRL+F find the GREEKALPOP samples, originally from Lazaridis 2014, with reference : Thessaloniki as place of origin.

    Use my guide to run FST distances to each one of them using also Cretan.DG so you can verify what I say, or rename all these in the second row of the .ind file (that's what I've done, see "Greek_Thessaloniki") to use as an average.

    I don't think I can be more explicit than this, I am sorry if you don't understand.

  8. #283
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,133

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I don't know for sure, mate, I haven't read too much for the particularities of that period, there were alot of Albanophones and Arvanites in their ranks for sure.
    The beauty of it is that they were fighting Turk-Alvani as they are know to Greeks (Albanian - Muslims, and Albanian Catholics as well) on the other side.
    Even the army of Ibrahim Pasha from Egypt that took Missolonghi had mostly Albanians.

    So why we get so much hate from Greeks, at the end it was an Albanian clash left in hold for so long. The side that got western support got the upper hand.

    I am wondering if they knew at that time that were part of the Greek Revolution.

    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  9. #284
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    285

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So why we get so much hate from Greeks

    I don't hate Albanians, I can only speak for myself.

  10. #285
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    18


    Country: Greece



    That's not exactly true, Pontics were around 350K registered with the Lausanne Treaty, imo much more in actual numbers, and another 150K from the Caucasus/former USSR in the early 1990s.
    The official census is more accurate to the amount that reached and stayed in Greece because it is also reflective of things like the high, in the early years, emigration aswel as mortality, as a result of diseases and the inability of the Greek state to provide proper care to the refugees (things I’m sure you are aware of).

    Population exchange.jpg

    I wont discuss this anymore though because it paints the wrong picture.

    The GREEKALPOP is the reference name.

    The FST distance run is the proof for the argument I made several posts ago, you can scroll back and re-read.
    Fst is irrelevant to the discussion. A sample from Thessaloniki clustering with Cretans wouldn't be surprising. The samples from Thessaloniki in the 2017 paper clearly don’t, I guess because they selected for pre 1923 ancestry. If GREEKALPOP clusters with Cretans than it is a different sample from the one used in the 2017 paper. This is not negotiable but clearly obvious. They are northeast of the Mycenaeans because of Slavic admixture and Cretans are the blue dots east of the Mycenaeans.

    Mycenaeans.jpg

    Again though I don’t see how this is relevant to the discussion because no arguments were made in that paper using them. The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model moderns.

    What the hypothetical average in Macedonia is now I don’t know. I would guess somewhere between the islands and the old cluster.

    The Izmir samples clearly represent the bulk of the Greeks of Anatolia as most were situated in western Anatolia. The ones from Thrace and Constantinople were also numerous.
    Popexchange.jpgPopexchange.jpg

    The point is there was nothing introduced in Macedonia that didn’t exist in the rest of Greece for a long time (the hypothetical average of the exchange population would be somewhere between the islands and the mainland with some admixture from the Pontic cluster). Since, as a result of people flocking to the cities, people from areas in Greece that received little settlement of refugees have also moved in Thessaloniki in large numbers. All in all not much has changed other than the island and mainland cluster probably coming closer together.

    Now how the situation in Macedonia concerns Balkan nationalists I still don’t know since it just one area of Greece and in the grand scheme of things it changes very little.

    Finally it is worth mentioning that profiles of groups like the Pontic Greeks and Cypriots are in all likelyhood, for the most part, alot older than people realise. When we get samples from the relevant areas we will test this assertion. I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.

    But anyway I’m off, I wont be following this thread anymore. Good luck with your spite driven crusade Eupator.

  11. #286
    Regular Member Dorian9's Avatar
    Join Date
    03-04-19
    Posts
    19


    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    So what we gather from the above is that Albanians is not really an ethnic group but more like a job title ,they're mercenaries.. they go where the power and money is. This tradition hasn't changed to this day , they keep wanting to become Greeks , Swiss and so on .I guess it must be the governments of those pushing them to..in the end ,what do they need a state for?

    Hail Georgios Kastriotis..

  12. #287
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.
    Serbs are mainly mix of Paleo Balkan and Slavic. Models that use separate Balkan and Slavic proxies mess up so im stuck with using Serbians. I'm trying to isolate ancient Greek ancestry and not estimate Slavic accurately. So Serbian works well for the general high steppe northern non-Greek ancestry since modern Greeks have both Pre Slavic Balkan and actual Slavic ancestry,

    I used Armenian as a general Anatolia/Caucasus proxy because it works well for general Anatolian + Pontic + other Caucasus related shift. There are no good ancient Anatolian samples published yet to be used as proxies. Also obviously im not gonna use Greek Anatolians who might have Greek ancestry, i tried adding both Greek_Anatolian and Armenian as proxies on G25 and the results were the same anyway, the calculator prefers Armenian because modern Greeks require a proxy with higher CHG/Iran N. I tried using Greek Anatolians and Bronze Age Anatolians as a proxy on qpAdm but it caused high std Errors. Anatolian Bronze Age like people are ancestral to ancient Greeks by around 40% so they cannot be used as a proxy.

    This is what Turks score with the same models

    Target: Turkish_Northwest
    Distance: 0.9214% / 0.00921406
    43.2 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian)
    36.2 Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad
    11.4 4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    7.4 1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
    1.8 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    Target: Turkish_Central
    Distance: 0.5316% / 0.00531589
    66.0 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian)
    24.2 Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad
    4.4 4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    4.0 1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
    1.2 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    0.2 African



  13. #288
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any.

    From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:

    “We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”
    The Serbian proxy is not 100% Slavic. Its used as a proxy for both Balkan and Slavic shift and even general European non-ancient-Greek ancestry.

    Their Slavic was deflated because of the lack of a Levantine proxy. Also Cypriots scored negative value in that paper because they did not use a Levantine proxy. Obviously such models make no sense and the shifts are completely misleading. They didn't do enough testing. If you dont use a Levantine proxy then the Dodecanese and Cypriots Slavic will seem lower.

    Whoever made those models did not understand well how qpAdm works. I can't believe that they did not even think to check by using a Levantine proxy.

  14. #289
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    52


    Country: Finland



    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.
    I have only recently started to post here and I am mostly unaware of various posting agendas although I start to get an idea. To strengthen your point I will repeat this:
    Western Anatolia has seen a constant influx of Greeks from both Aegean islands and the mainland for several centuries up until 1922. We aren’t talking just the usual suspects (the big islands of eastern Aegean like Chios and Lesbos). Dodecanese was a big contributor.Cyclades even more so.We also have significant and well attested migration flows from mainland to the Anatolian coast.After the first Russo-Ottoman war in particular Peloponnesus experienced an exodus towards urban areas (20.000 people around 1780 ). We also have data of people from as north as Veria that ended up in Smyrna well before 1922. Greeks from Anatolia that got exchanged in 1922 often strong, recent genetic ties to Greece. I can’t post the link to the Greek source study due to low number of posts but it is from Ιωάννης Καραχρηστος (Διασχίζοντας το Αιγαίο).

  15. #290
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.
    Are you seriously trying to attack the credibility of people just because you assume that they are jealous? Is that you projecting your own feelings?
    Mainland Greeks have 3-4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. You do realize the astronomical amount of Northern ancestry that is required to do such thing?

    Yes the ancient Greeks literally had 30-40% Anatolia BA related ancestry. Where do you think their Iran N and excess CHG comes from? Have you seen the Pre-Hellenic populations of Greece from the Neolithic to the Bronze age? They start being ANF Barcin_N like and then they shift towards Anatolia BA by an increase of CHG and Iran N like ancestry, then the Mycenaeans appear to be a 70% mix of those Pre-Hellenic populations and 30% South Balkan.

    Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc
    Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288
    39.6 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc
    30.4 Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin
    30.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA(Maybe_Proto-Greek-like)

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
    It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.
    Mainland Greeks literally have 3 to 4 times more steppe ancestry than the ancient Greeks. Do you realize how much of Northern non-Greek admix that is required to do such increase of steppe? Minimum 40% if it was just pure Slavic which is NOT and 50-60% if its Balkan and Slavic which it is.

  16. #291
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,549


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
    These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any.

    From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:

    “We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”

    Concerning the Byzantine relocations from the east Eupator cites, we already know they didn’t play much of a role because again as per the Marathon sample which is dated to 252-412 CE, a Dodecanesian like profile already existed in Greece. When taking such a profile as a starting point nothing from the east gets picked up for modern Greek samples. In fact something abit more western like the Maniots (they plot with or slightly west of Crete) works better for mainland groups than using Dodecanesians.

    Therefore, movements mentioned in vague historical sources are not solid proof of population replacement, ancient Dna is, at least when there is an adequate sample size to cover different eras and areas. We are quite a bit off from having an exhaustive sample size but we will eventually get there. Some of the theories proposed here might be proven, or not and some atleast (like byzantine era movements) already look unlikely.

    The southern Arc paper is probably coming out in two days, if they have sufficient samples form the Archaic/classical/Roman era we might be able to get a general idea of what happened in Greece and the Balkans, why not chill out and wait for it to drop?

    As a side note it is going to be fairly easy to tell when something is a coincidence or not. That Cretans are Saracens mixed with Varangians like Eupator sugested is quite an amusing idea, but it is very unlikely to be confirmed by ancient dna. The general picture painted for Crete will likely be that which was suggested in the Danubian Limes paper.
    Excellent post. Thank-you. Finally, someone who understands how to handle historical sources and when a genetic similarity is a coincidence, and when it is a sign of admixture. For the latter you need historical evidence.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  17. #292
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Also, concerning linguistic affinities especially in the late Ottoman period.

    This ethnographic map by Cvijic shows the linguistic (the term ethnic is used rather) for the late Ottoman period in the region.

    My father's village as you can see below is painted as brown=Greek.




    But if you read Meletios' Geography and History you get the following ethnographic detail:





    The village is referred to be made by Arvanites ("Arvanitovillage").


    So you can see the depths you have to go into to secure the ethnographic details and nuisances of each place inside the Byzantine and Ottoman periods where so many ethnic groups lived next to each other, where so many languages were spoken simultaneously.

    How can anyone with a straight face say there is this ultimately unbroken continuity to 2000 B.C. in the region?

    As for Crete, and their supposed unbroken continuity to Minoan and Mycenean times, I copy+paste an older relevant post of mine:
    The Arvanites that helped in the building of the Selim mosque were Arvanites (Albanian speakers). They settled in the village of Megalo Zaloufi and Mandritsa. The were other villages in Eastern Thrace that were founded by Arbanites refugees as a result of the destruction of Moschopolis and Vithkouki in Albania in 1769. They settled in the towns of Imprik Tepe (Κιουτέζα) και Sultankoy (Βιθκούκι), and the smaller villages of Altin Tas, Pazar Dere, Yilanli, and Karaja Halil.


  18. #293
    Regular Member Ralphie Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-10-16
    Posts
    238

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a-Y18331-Y66192

    Country: United States



    Modern Peloponnesians can’t be medieval Anatolian/south Italian Greek replacements while simultaneously having substantial Slavic ancestry and no ancient Greek ancestry, all while really being Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. That would be a gymnastic level of shape shifting to make a Fallmerayer type of argument.

  19. #294
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    Modern Peloponnesians can’t be medieval Anatolian/south Italian Greek replacements while simultaneously having substantial Slavic ancestry and no ancient Greek ancestry, all while really being Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. That would be a gymnastic level of shape shifting to make a Fallmerayer type of argument.
    Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic.
    Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
    Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115
    37.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    31.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    17.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    14.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 0.7652% / 0.00765245
    52.0 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    29.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    12.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia
    Distance: 0.7745% / 0.00774540
    44.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    26.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    22.0 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    7.8 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC


    Target: Greek_Macedonia
    Distance: 0.7222% / 0.00722199
    59.4 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    21.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    19.6 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Achaea
    Distance: 0.6698% / 0.00669781
    53.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    29.8 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    10.2 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Thessaly
    Distance: 1.1229% / 0.01122937
    54.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    34.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    10.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)

  20. #295
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-08-17
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    318


    Ethnic group
    Greek Messinia
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Idontknowwhatimdoing View Post
    Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic.
    Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
    Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115
    37.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    31.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    17.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    14.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 0.7652% / 0.00765245
    52.0 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    29.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    12.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia
    Distance: 0.7745% / 0.00774540
    44.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    26.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    22.0 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    7.8 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    Target: Greek_Macedonia
    Distance: 0.7222% / 0.00722199
    59.4 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    21.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    19.6 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Achaea
    Distance: 0.6698% / 0.00669781
    53.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    29.8 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    10.2 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
    6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Target: Greek_Thessaly
    Distance: 1.1229% / 0.01122937
    54.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian)
    34.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion)
    10.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
    Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.

  21. #296
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.

    Calculator Source:
    Code:
    1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
    1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
    
    2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
    
    3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic):Armenian,0.1034341,0.13861054,-0.056434355,-0.062990873,-0.027627409,-0.016951482,0.0038348,-0.0061151,-0.028213127,-0.0019019,0.0034337909,0.0020599545,-0.0026677727,0.0023908727,-0.0062209091,-0.00058341818,0.0025223182,0.0013912818,0.0017540818,-0.0018327,0.0017730455,0.0017749727,-0.0010857182,-0.0008993,0.0010700727
    
    4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian),0.1273334,0.137229,0.040024,0.0148299,0.0314974,0.0045957,0.0048738,0.006672,-0.0011737,-7.9e-06,-0.0022946,-0.001251,0.0034128,0.012434,-0.0128875,-0.0008358,0.0040476,0.0005894,0.0043011,-0.0024468,-0.0083168,-0.0017151,0.0048925,0.000372,-0.0020097
    Greek Targets:
    Code:
    Greek_Cypriot,0.1018718,0.1466806,-0.0343886,-0.0680319,-0.0024042,-0.0226075,-0.0005141,-0.0038798,-0.0029784,0.0168911,0.0034406,0.0013208,0.00013,0.0022106,-0.0131309,0.0010028,0.0056799,0.0009977,0.0037945,-0.0017352,-0.0019652,0.0018239,-0.0011324,0.0027337,-0.0007709
    Greek_Achaea,0.1176476,0.1447334,0.008915,-0.0254524,0.0186618,-0.0085564,0.0029704,-7.38e-05,0.0028634,0.0153514,0.0010198,0.0014746,-0.0018315,0.006727,-0.0149347,-0.0008963,0.0074268,-0.0001216,0.0049677,-0.004047,-0.0064686,0.0013948,0.0035248,0.0019616,-0.0025866
    Greek_Arcadia,0.1173137,0.1434605,0.0074167,-0.0243973,0.0207219,-0.011323,0.003337,-4.62e-05,-0.0002999,0.015235,0.0016347,0.0019181,-0.0021704,0.0085878,-0.0162594,-0.0033235,0.0038595,0.0007095,0.0070473,-0.0058945,-0.007337,-0.0005687,0.0013559,0.0001124,-0.0007663
    Greek_Argolis,0.1198699,0.143634,0.0072359,-0.0265264,0.0190804,-0.0092382,0.0014982,-0.0011106,-0.0006774,0.0167202,0.0027098,0.0024354,-0.0035214,0.0072424,-0.0158029,-0.0028425,0.0068207,0.0013936,0.0059943,-0.0055808,-0.0083368,0.0005334,0.0015714,9.79e-05,-0.0029189
    Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
    Greek_Corinthia,0.1185182,0.1451572,0.0064346,-0.0262841,0.0191573,-0.0088025,0.0018947,-0.0004902,0.0007668,0.0167543,0.001563,0.0023229,-0.0036701,0.0068037,-0.0156502,-0.0015994,0.0104959,0.0001266,0.0073848,-0.0052291,-0.0078612,-0.0003553,0.0024342,0.0030349,-0.0011226
    Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692
    Greek_Deep_Mani,0.1106252,0.1485574,-0.011152,-0.0442049,0.0119434,-0.0166139,0.0008952,-0.000989,0.0015582,0.0186748,0.0019332,0.0022052,-0.0026263,0.0046202,-0.013501,-0.0039461,0.0044454,0.0015564,0.0034178,-0.0042818,-0.006447,0.0014544,0.0002465,0.0001434,-0.0008668
    Greek_Dodecanese,0.1059692,0.1461347,-0.0244374,-0.0567511,0.0021851,-0.0183789,0.0038071,-0.0042228,-0.0028019,0.0166563,0.0048066,0.0020682,-0.0044895,-0.0005644,-0.0123505,-0.0012728,0.0032987,0.0050168,0.0058701,-0.0047523,-0.0043049,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127
    Greek_East_Taygetos,0.1150109,0.1460155,0.0047548,-0.0286206,0.0174345,-0.0104887,0.0022683,-0.0005318,0.0011383,0.013747,0.001059,0.0011339,-0.0021912,0.0070846,-0.0128167,-0.0036895,0.0039286,0.0010411,0.0034376,-0.0050459,-0.0053601,0.0018118,0.0031883,0.0015821,-0.0008902
    Greek_Elis,0.1157677,0.1446283,0.0068195,-0.0252344,0.0180801,-0.0090639,0.0024088,0.0015192,0.000375,0.0140854,0.0017525,0.0022918,-0.0023414,0.0060496,-0.0155061,-0.0028507,0.0079481,0.001003,0.0067352,-0.0041583,-0.0060466,-7.21e-05,0.0019104,0.0012954,-0.0023351
    Greek_Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
    Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
    Greek_Laconia,0.1143004,0.1474811,0.0042943,-0.0296847,0.0171445,-0.0101211,0.002206,-0.000551,0.0011545,0.0148259,0.0030906,0.0009669,-0.0017647,0.0072185,-0.0141456,-0.0035201,0.0048915,0.0008909,0.0045211,-0.0064063,-0.0065208,0.0018549,0.0031527,0.0018075,-0.0020203
    Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986
    Greek_Messenia,0.1178508,0.1445568,0.0081661,-0.024225,0.0192461,-0.00871,0.0032629,2.67e-05,-3.14e-05,0.0146351,0.0010367,0.0016601,-0.0035851,0.0075851,-0.0144855,-0.0053903,0.0042024,0.0015056,0.008359,-0.0051948,-0.0062102,0.0019832,0.0026357,0.0018445,-0.0011423
    Greek_North_Tsakonia,0.1169849,0.1444308,0.0005449,-0.030362,0.0156609,-0.0114654,0.0022717,0.0006667,0.0007272,0.0148826,0.0026342,0.0021814,-0.0024117,0.0077988,-0.0137228,-0.0073511,0.0010867,0.0024773,0.0061592,-0.0057807,-0.004104,0.0038469,0.0009177,0.0011244,0.0016898
    Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506
    Greek_South_Tsakonia,0.1163271,0.1441377,-0.0026399,-0.0354439,0.013705,-0.0118809,0.0016293,-0.0010462,-0.0001772,0.0167171,0.002858,0.0016585,-0.0039443,0.0036515,-0.0151555,-0.0001413,0.0093964,-0.0004814,0.004852,-0.0027095,-0.005091,0.0011789,0.0005342,-0.0001526,-0.0006147
    Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0.0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
    Greek_West_Taygetos,0.1175698,0.1442053,0.0094751,-0.0220582,0.0188753,-0.0080995,0.0044944,0.0011058,7.67e-05,0.0114581,0.0009607,0.0003308,-0.0003903,0.0069844,-0.0116832,-0.0025855,0.003955,0.0008921,0.0035772,-0.0040174,-0.0062598,4.62e-05,0.0016998,0.0020183,-0.0010777

  22. #297
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Be careful with possible overlap between Ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan. Ancient Greeks i.e. LBA Mycenaeans might already have Paleo Balkan ancestry. Try to use distinct populations with no overlap.

  23. #298
    Regular Member Idontknowwhatimdoing's Avatar
    Join Date
    16-07-21
    Posts
    43


    Ethnic group
    Greek Cypriot
    Country: Cyprus



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Be careful with possible overlap between Ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan. Ancient Greeks i.e. LBA Mycenaeans might already have Paleo Balkan ancestry. Try to use distinct populations with no overlap.
    That is why i used Serbian which is a mix of Paleo-Balkan and Slavic and not separate Paleo-Balkan and Slavic proxies. I don't get why you said that when i made sure that the overlap doesn't happen.

    Mycenaeans have around 30% Paleo-Balkan like admix probably more similar to the Logkas samples (almost 0 WHG). The rest of it is Minoan like.

  24. #299
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Idontknowwhatimdoing View Post
    That is why i used Serbian which is a mix of Paleo-Balkan and Slavic and not separate Paleo-Balkan and Slavic proxies. I don't get why you said that when i made sure that the overlap doesn't happen.

    Mycenaeans have around 30% Paleo-Balkan like admix probably more similar to the Logkas samples (almost 0 WHG). The rest of it is Minoan like.
    Serbians and ancient Greeks still overlap because they both might have Paleo-balkan in their ancestry.

  25. #300
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,549


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Paleo-Balkan? How about a big chunk of Neolithic farmer.

Page 12 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •