Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 19 of 25 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast
Results 451 to 475 of 602

Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #451
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    7,864

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.


    Definitely would like to see more Italic samples processed from various tribes, particularly the Oscans. If they're shifted a bit from Protovillanovan (R1) who is similar to Cetina, that you could easily bracket modern Apulians, and myself with Myceneans.

  2. #452
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?


  3. #453
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    13-10-21
    Posts
    20


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_ View Post
    Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?
    The former

    ID Label Locality Country
    I3881 MKD_N Pista Novo Selo North Macedonia
    I7231 MKD_BA Dimov Grob, V. Ulanci-Gradsko North Macedonia
    I10171 MKD_BA_lc Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko North Macedonia
    I10168 MKD_BA_lc Skopje, Skupi, East Necropolis North Macedonia
    I7233 MKD_Anc Vodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-Gradsko North Macedonia
    I10388 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
    I8112 MKD_Anc Lisicin Dol, Marvinci, Valandovo North Macedonia
    I10383 MKD_Anc Lisicin Dol-Marvinci, Valandovo North Macedonia
    I10385 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
    I10379 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10381 MKD_Anc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10378 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10380 MKD_IA_lc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10389 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
    I10387 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
    I10384 MKD_Anc Plaosnik-Ohrid North Macedonia
    I10382 MKD_Anc Govrlevo-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10377 MKD_Anc Bucinci-Skopje North Macedonia
    I10390 MKD_Anc Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
    I10392 MKD_Anc_outlier1 Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis North Macedonia
    I10166 MKD_Anc Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest Necropolis North Macedonia
    I10391 MKD_Anc Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
    I10167 MKD_Anc_outlier2 Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis) North Macedonia
    I2530 MKD_Mdv Tumba S. Opticari, Bitola North Macedonia

  4. #454
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Thanks a lot. They seem similar to the Greek_logkas found in Northern Greece ?

  5. #455
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Do you have the results of these samples such as K13, K15 or G25 that compares them with modern populations ?

  6. #456
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Some of these North Macedonian samples can actually be considered Illyrian ? Skopje was an Illyrian town or Paeonian .

    Ohrid was Illyrian for example such as Enchele and Dassaretii . Maybe some of those more south which was under Ancient Macedonian influence can be considered Ancient Macedonian .

  7. #457
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_ View Post
    Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?
    North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.

  8. #458
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.
    Thanks a lot for doing the PCA.

    Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest.

    I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?

  9. #459
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,577


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #460
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_ View Post
    Thanks a lot for doing the PCA.

    Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest.

    I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?
    You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Urh...taCM7PFw1/view

    Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr...CQncZWb8y/view

    Samples

    Code:
    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311
    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634
    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269
    Closest modern averages

    Code:
    Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379
    0.04160790    Greek_Corinthia
    0.04209242    Italian_Umbria
    0.04293713    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04331874    Albanian
    0.04350649    French_Corsica
    0.04363560    Greek_Achaea
    0.04382362    Greek_Argolis
    0.04386982    Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04493594    Greek_Peloponnese
    0.04494455    Italian_Piedmont
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381
    0.03504228    French_Corsica
    0.03818658    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03870528    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03948887    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03986299    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04137620    Italian_Umbria
    0.04242321    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04266998    Swiss_Italian
    0.04275243    Italian_Veneto
    0.04287049    Italian_Marche
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112
    0.03277776    Italian_Veneto
    0.03282563    Swiss_Italian
    0.03394397    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03503558    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03530438    French_Corsica
    0.03569553    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03617877    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03898551    Italian_Northeast
    0.03908354    Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.03979649    Spanish_Baleares
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383
    0.03758136    French_Corsica
    0.03813145    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03888043    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03998897    Swiss_Italian
    0.04010991    Italian_Bergamo
    0.04024820    Italian_Veneto
    0.04093217    Italian_Umbria
    0.04426290    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04493292    Italian_Lombardy
    0.04603390    Albanian
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390
    0.02979567    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03365491    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03519821    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03525994    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03596028    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03652714    Italian_Marche
    0.03657377    French_Corsica
    0.03744124    Italian_Liguria
    0.04032554    Italian_Veneto
    0.04073644    Albanian
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391
    0.03637200    Italian_Marche
    0.03665969    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03718366    French_Corsica
    0.03749688    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03754515    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03867890    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03900322    Greek_Messenia
    0.03952154    Greek_Arcadia
    0.03992825    Greek_Argolis
    0.04068889    Italian_Umbria
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384
    0.02658953    Italian_Bergamo
    0.02665376    Italian_Piedmont
    0.02815767    Italian_Veneto
    0.03148070    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03157290    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03218132    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03292243    French_Corsica
    0.03316853    Swiss_Italian
    0.03421080    Italian_Northeast
    0.03444028    Greek_Thessaly
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385
    0.03102428    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03106331    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03257605    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03430976    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03548999    Italian_Veneto
    0.03595776    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03600791    Italian_Liguria
    0.03727806    Swiss_Italian
    0.03776131    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03849048    Italian_Northeast
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387
    0.04172449    French_Corsica
    0.04315419    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04317575    Italian_Lombardy
    0.04376980    Italian_Bergamo
    0.04486060    Italian_Piedmont
    0.04673105    Italian_Umbria
    0.04761407    Italian_Marche
    0.04809777    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04835839    Italian_Lazio
    0.04992830    Italian_Liguria
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388
    0.02865295    Italian_Piedmont
    0.02881542    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03067725    French_Corsica
    0.03111068    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03150509    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03239027    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03339795    Italian_Marche
    0.03390751    Italian_Umbria
    0.03504262    Albanian
    0.03513450    Italian_Veneto
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389
    0.04745656    Italian_Piedmont
    0.04809294    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04818109    Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04856204    Swiss_Italian
    0.04872707    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04898417    Albanian
    0.04912564    Rumelia_East
    0.05038593    Italian_Veneto
    0.05127101    Italian_Northeast
    0.05157051    Greek_West_Taygetos
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233
    0.04803218    Italian_Lazio
    0.04830066    French_Corsica
    0.05103187    Italian_Molise
    0.05128321    Italian_Umbria
    0.05182249    Italian_Apulia
    0.05211776    Italian_Marche
    0.05213577    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05261011    Italian_Tuscany
    0.05314765    Italian_Basilicata
    0.05322605    Greek_Corinthia

  11. #461
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?
    Who said anything about that ?

  12. #462
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Urh...taCM7PFw1/view

    Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr...CQncZWb8y/view

    Samples

    Code:
    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311
    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634
    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269
    Closest modern averages

    Code:
    Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379
    0.04160790    Greek_Corinthia
    0.04209242    Italian_Umbria
    0.04293713    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04331874    Albanian
    0.04350649    French_Corsica
    0.04363560    Greek_Achaea
    0.04382362    Greek_Argolis
    0.04386982    Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04493594    Greek_Peloponnese
    0.04494455    Italian_Piedmont
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381
    0.03504228    French_Corsica
    0.03818658    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03870528    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03948887    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03986299    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04137620    Italian_Umbria
    0.04242321    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04266998    Swiss_Italian
    0.04275243    Italian_Veneto
    0.04287049    Italian_Marche
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112
    0.03277776    Italian_Veneto
    0.03282563    Swiss_Italian
    0.03394397    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03503558    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03530438    French_Corsica
    0.03569553    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03617877    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03898551    Italian_Northeast
    0.03908354    Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.03979649    Spanish_Baleares
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383
    0.03758136    French_Corsica
    0.03813145    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03888043    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03998897    Swiss_Italian
    0.04010991    Italian_Bergamo
    0.04024820    Italian_Veneto
    0.04093217    Italian_Umbria
    0.04426290    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04493292    Italian_Lombardy
    0.04603390    Albanian
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390
    0.02979567    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03365491    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03519821    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03525994    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03596028    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03652714    Italian_Marche
    0.03657377    French_Corsica
    0.03744124    Italian_Liguria
    0.04032554    Italian_Veneto
    0.04073644    Albanian
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391
    0.03637200    Italian_Marche
    0.03665969    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03718366    French_Corsica
    0.03749688    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03754515    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03867890    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03900322    Greek_Messenia
    0.03952154    Greek_Arcadia
    0.03992825    Greek_Argolis
    0.04068889    Italian_Umbria
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384
    0.02658953    Italian_Bergamo
    0.02665376    Italian_Piedmont
    0.02815767    Italian_Veneto
    0.03148070    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03157290    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03218132    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03292243    French_Corsica
    0.03316853    Swiss_Italian
    0.03421080    Italian_Northeast
    0.03444028    Greek_Thessaly
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385
    0.03102428    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03106331    Italian_Piedmont
    0.03257605    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03430976    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03548999    Italian_Veneto
    0.03595776    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03600791    Italian_Liguria
    0.03727806    Swiss_Italian
    0.03776131    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03849048    Italian_Northeast
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387
    0.04172449    French_Corsica
    0.04315419    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04317575    Italian_Lombardy
    0.04376980    Italian_Bergamo
    0.04486060    Italian_Piedmont
    0.04673105    Italian_Umbria
    0.04761407    Italian_Marche
    0.04809777    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04835839    Italian_Lazio
    0.04992830    Italian_Liguria
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388
    0.02865295    Italian_Piedmont
    0.02881542    Italian_Tuscany
    0.03067725    French_Corsica
    0.03111068    Italian_Lombardy
    0.03150509    Italian_Bergamo
    0.03239027    Greek_Thessaly
    0.03339795    Italian_Marche
    0.03390751    Italian_Umbria
    0.03504262    Albanian
    0.03513450    Italian_Veneto
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389
    0.04745656    Italian_Piedmont
    0.04809294    Italian_Tuscany
    0.04818109    Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.04856204    Swiss_Italian
    0.04872707    Greek_Thessaly
    0.04898417    Albanian
    0.04912564    Rumelia_East
    0.05038593    Italian_Veneto
    0.05127101    Italian_Northeast
    0.05157051    Greek_West_Taygetos
    
    Distance to:    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233
    0.04803218    Italian_Lazio
    0.04830066    French_Corsica
    0.05103187    Italian_Molise
    0.05128321    Italian_Umbria
    0.05182249    Italian_Apulia
    0.05211776    Italian_Marche
    0.05213577    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05261011    Italian_Tuscany
    0.05314765    Italian_Basilicata
    0.05322605    Greek_Corinthia

    Thanks a lot. I will check them out. Some of these samples look like some Thracian and Illyrian samples that were found . Some of these with North-Italy as first are like some Illyrian samples.

  13. #463
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...

  14. #464
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...
    Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
    (this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)

    Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
    0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
    0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
    0.05240272 Macedonian
    0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)

  15. #465
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...
    Why would they be ? Macedonia was invaded by Bulgarians in 900 AD.

    I wonder how much Slavic influence Greek Macedonia has ? I expect samples in actual Greek Macedonia to possibly be like IA Thracians or something between these samples and IA Thracians.

  16. #466
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    14-02-17
    Posts
    146


    Country: United States



    A good deal of Aegean Macedonia , almost the whole of N.Macedonia and a part of modern-day Albania was conquered by Presian .
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...er_Presian.png
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presian_I_of_Bulgaria
    The "Slavicization" of what is today N.Macedonia is a post IXc. event (done deliberately, as the long term policy of Pliska suggests...or at least with her consent).

  17. #467
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-08-22
    Posts
    168

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283

    Country: Switzerland



    Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.
    ..............

    Sorry I meant ninth century

  18. #468
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-08-22
    Posts
    22


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
    (this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)

    Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
    0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
    0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
    0.05240272 Macedonian
    0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)
    I got this reply from Bruzmi in Anthrogenica
    ===
    With regional averages from the Balkans:

    Distance to: MKD_Anc
    0.02035549 Albanian_Mirditë
    0.02291769 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02293867 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02468915 French_Corsica
    0.02513461 Albanian_Tropojë-Gjakovë
    0.02612041 Albanian_Northwestern_Albania
    0.02633171 Italian_Bergamo
    0.02671033 Albanian_Central_Albania
    0.02742488 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02794789 Italian_Umbria
    0.02798586 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02834517 Albanian_Himarë
    0.02867494 Albanian_Labëria
    0.02889933 Albanian_Montenegro
    0.02897302 Albanian_Pukë
    0.02949664 Italian_Marche
    0.02956238 Greek_Western_Greece_Aetolia-Acarnania
    0.02977295 Albanian_Dibra
    0.02988281 Swiss_Italian
    0.02996540 Albanian
    0.03013093 Albanian_Kosovo
    0.03023377 Italian_Veneto
    0.03027398 Albanian_Korçë
    0.03075118 Greek_Central_Greece_Phocis
    0.03092072 Greek_Central_Greece_Boeotia
    ====
    In the end, we should revive the legend the Mathia (todays Mat region in Albania) is related to the Ancient Macedonians. And todays matians being the core of Albanians. Matzinger at the end is not that off-road.

  19. #469
    Banned
    Join Date
    17-01-18
    Posts
    177


    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by epirus1000 View Post
    In the end, we should revive the legend the Mathia (todays Mat region in Albania) is related to the Ancient Macedonians. And todays matians being the core of Albanians. Matzinger at the end is not that off-road.
    Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi
    As a side note, the Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite sample should really be removed or included into one of the other Albanian groups. It is based on a single sample from a rather suspicious and problematic individual (responsible for some questionable posts and trolling) from another forum whose entire ancestry was not entirely clear. The inclusion of his alleged religious affiliation in the label is also a little odd in my opinion.

  20. #470
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-08-22
    Posts
    22


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.
    Still Bruzmi in Anthrogenica
    =====
    The post is old (before we started collecting G25 coords and G25 sims) and doesn't refer to the Albanian_Mirdita average. The Mirditë average was created by several samples including the one which is uploaded on the official G25 dataset.

    Here are the official G25 basic components of another individual from Mirdita who basically has the same profile as the AL12:

    Target: Mirdita:AL12Mirdita
    Distance: 2.2959% / 0.02295938
    61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    36.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.8 WHG
    0.8 Han

    Target: Mirdita_RP_Albania:Mirdita2
    Distance: 2.5585% / 0.02558529
    61.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    38.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

    And several others from other regions with similar profiles:

    Target: Albanians_in_Montenegro:Gucia
    Distance: 2.9421% / 0.02942079
    62.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.2 WHG
    0.8 Han
    0.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


    Target: Dibra2
    Distance: 3.0627% / 0.03062717
    64.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    Target: Podujeva1
    Distance: 3.8775% / 0.03877456
    59.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    32.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    3.2 WHG
    3.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
    0.6 Han

    Target: Kukës1
    Distance: 2.8298% / 0.02829819
    59.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    37.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    0.4 WHG

    Target: Dibra1
    Distance: 2.8707% / 0.02870661
    63.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    32.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    2.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.8 WHG
    0.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728

    All of these are official G25 coords. Similar results have been seen among G25 sims.

    The sample is perfectly normal and a core part of the Albanian autosomal profile. The ALB_PostMdv samples from Southern Arc are indeed very close to the samples above:

    Target: ALB_PostMdv
    Distance: 2.2646% / 0.02264592
    62.0 TUR_Barcin_N
    34.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    1.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    1.2 WHG
    0.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.4 Levant_PPNB

  21. #471
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    27-08-22
    Posts
    22


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.
    Well, it is a pity that the work of first Albanian ethnographer Rrok Zojzi (1910-1995) is not present that much in the main literature. His collection of old poems and tales inherited for centuries would be a treasure, especially in this era of DNA comparison, including the mentioning of the Alexander the Great in those poems and tales.

  22. #472
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
    (this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)

    Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
    0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
    0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
    0.05240272 Macedonian
    0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)
    It is possible that many of the native people of North Macedonia (former Paeonia) fled South during the Slavic invasions. Looking for refuge closer to the Greek world and the Aegean. It makes sense, because the people living there were already Greek Orthodox Christians and part of the Greek world, while the newcomers were not.

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#3E3E3E
    1337_[/COLOR]]Why would they be ? Macedonia was invaded by Bulgarians in 900 AD.

    I wonder how much Slavic influence Greek Macedonia has ? I expect samples in actual Greek Macedonia to possibly be like IA Thracians or something between these samples and IA Thracians.
    Keep in mind that even Greek Macedonia constitutes a region larger than original habitat of the Ancient Macedonians. The Macedonians settled among other Greek tribes as well as Thracian/Paeonian tribes. They expelled them and created their first kingdom. Then, later on, Phillip expanded the kingdom and incorporated other regions absorbing other Greek tribes (Mollosians, Thessalians) as well as Thracian tribes. So Macedonia during Phillip would be from encopasse Mycenaean-like to IA Thracian-like individuals. Basically they would plot just a bit North of Mycenaeans.

  23. #473
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    415


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    It is possible that many of the native people of North Macedonia (former Paeonia) fled South during the Slavic invasions. Looking for refuge closer to the Greek world and the Aegean. It makes sense, because the people living there were already Greek Orthodox Christians and part of the Greek world, while the newcomers were not.



    Keep in mind that even Greek Macedonia constitutes a region larger than original habitat of the Ancient Macedonians. The Macedonians settled among other Greek tribes as well as Thracian/Paeonian tribes. They expelled them and created their first kingdom. Then, later on, Phillip expanded the kingdom and incorporated other regions absorbing other Greek tribes (Mollosians, Thessalians) as well as Thracian tribes. So Macedonia during Phillip would be from encopasse Mycenaean-like to IA Thracian-like individuals. Basically they would plot just a bit North of Mycenaeans.
    Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.

  24. #474
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.
    Greek Macedonians do not overlap to IA Thracians or Mycenaeans. So there is always room for the Slavic newcomers to be absorbed in Greek Macedonia.

    When comparing modern Greeks to Mycenaeans, of all modern Greek populations Greek Macedonians usually come up as least related to them (aside from some Pontian Greeks). But when comparing Greek Macedonians to IA North Macedonia, the Greek Macedonians are the closest of all Greek and Balkan populations. Now, I don't think Ancient Macedonians would overlap with IA Thracians (given earlier samples) and I don't think that Myceneans + 30% Slavic = IA Thracian (or somethning close to Greek Macedonian). Hence I argue that many indigenous people from North Macedonia migrated South at some point.

  25. #475
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    Is there a way of estimating Slavic admixture in Macedonian Slavs if we compare IA North Macedonia to Macedonian Slavs?

Page 19 of 25 FirstFirst ... 91718192021 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •