Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast
Results 501 to 525 of 602

Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #501
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using.

    BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.
    What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?

    First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most.

    In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.

    Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent.

    You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?

    Perhaps you're thinking of the Copts? That too is a separate religion. In the Ottoman Empire, from things I read about the situation in Palestine, marriages had to be performed by the clergyman of your religion. So, since you needed their approval, there literally was no way for people of different religious faiths to marry. The few who managed it had to go abroad and get married in civil ceremonies there.

    It's amazing to me that you post these fantasies as unequivocal fact.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #502
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    03-04-19
    Posts
    32


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?
    I don't know his ideology but it didn't seem to me that his comment came from such place , rather he wanted to explain these components for what he thought was a modern person but thing is these K36 components are meaningless and although I'm not very familiar with them it's obvious that if a neolithic scores them ,there will be moderns that will score more than those..and that without having to come from some recent community outside of Greece.Btw regarding Copts there is a half Egyptiote Greek half Copt in 23andme but yeah it wouldn't be near the norm.

    Also to add something else ,although you are right about endogamy in the past and certain mentalities ,this is not the case in modern times.This is from Australia imgur . com / KFYz9Xf . png (and I don't think it will be very different in any other country) ,it will not be too long before these communities disappear and become fully assimilated.

  3. #503
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Clearly you haven't read his posts on numerous threads on the same topic.As for whether this endogamy is dying out or how quickly it's dying out, perhaps it depends on the location and the size of the Greek community in that area.

    I can tell you that in the greater Metropolitan area of New York and more specifically New York City and Long Island there are large numbers of Greek Americans, and a good number of them still center a lot of their social life around their church, and practice endogamy.

    In fact, of all the "newer" immigrants to the U.S., (post late 19th century) they practice it the most. Italians are very different. Of all my 23 first cousins on my father's side, only 4, including me, married someone of Italian descent. Those are definitely "not" the statistics I see in the Greek community around me.

  4. #504
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-04-18
    Age
    31
    Posts
    385

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: Algeria



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Wanderer you actually should run GEDmatch's Oracle's for whatever calculator you're using.

    BTW, in 1940 there were 250,000 Greek descent people in Egypt. Now there are about 1,000. If this person is one of the descendants of the 250,000 I would expect some Egyptian/Middle East admixture. No way you're going to have Greeks in Egypt in large number since the Hellenistic period and not have admixture.
    You know some ancient greek and egyptian kits I can run on gedmatch?

  5. #505
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-04-18
    Age
    31
    Posts
    385

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: Algeria



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?

    First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most.

    In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.

    Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent.

    You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?

    Perhaps you're thinking of the Copts? That too is a separate religion. In the Ottoman Empire, from things I read about the situation in Palestine, marriages had to be performed by the clergyman of your religion. So, since you needed their approval, there literally was no way for people of different religious faiths to marry. The few who managed it had to go abroad and get married in civil ceremonies there.

    It's amazing to me that you post these fantasies as unequivocal fact.
    Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?

    North africans also have european ancestry.

  6. #506
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?

    North africans also have european ancestry.
    Some may indeed have admixed in the Iron Age and the Imperial Era, particularly in light of the fact that both were polytheists and until Constantine the Empire didn't concern itself with who married whom.

    The point is that evert era is different; you have to know the time period and its history in these matters.

    So, as I said, it may well have happened to a certain degree, but whole sale admixing? I tend to think not given the fact that there was a lot of enmity between the three major groups who lived, for example, in Alexandria.

    The Jews, the Greeks, and the Egyptians each had their own quarter of the city. There were constant brawls and sometimes so much violence between them that it was difficult for the Romans to maintain order in the city, as absolute chaos would ensue.

    Think of the Palestinians and Jews with their own areas of Jerusalem, or the Protestant Ulstermen and Catholics of Northern Island. In the latter case, they are both Christians, just different versions, and the same race. In fact, even they can't distinguish amongst themselves by looks alone. The Protestants in the Republic of Ireland are another case in point. They've been in Ireland since the 1630s, but inter-marriage between members of the two groups was a rare scandal until a few decades ago.

    It's a very big mistake to try to impose the values of the 21st century onto the people of the past. A knowledge of history, as well as archaeology, must be brought to bear on any conclusions.

  7. #507
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,531

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    Its pretty well known greeks colonized egypt. Why is it that controversial that egyptians may have greek ancestry also?

    North africans also have european ancestry.

    more Greek in libya than Egypt

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrene,_Libya
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  8. #508
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
    Join Date
    12-04-18
    Age
    31
    Posts
    385

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283 (z627)

    Ethnic group
    Ancient
    Country: Algeria


  9. #509
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,685

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is this obsession you have with admixture? Is it part of your WOKE political ideology or because of what you see in America, or the admixture in your own family or what?

    First of all, even in the U.S. today, I know a lot of Greek families which have NOT admixed, and very much don't want their children to admix. The emphasis on sending their children to Greek school and having so many activities at the Greek church is part of helping to keep their children on board. Some break the tradition, but not most.

    In Europe there are many examples showing the same determination to keep marriage within the ethnicity, although things have changed recently. As I think I explained in another thread, Germans were recruited to settle in the former Yugoslavia in the late 1600s. Until they were massacred and expelled after WWII, they had their own German churches, schools, newspapers, etc. spoke mostly German, certainly at home, and never admixed with the Slavs whom they considered inferior. Why is that so difficult to understand, especially when you're talking not only ethnicity, but language and religion.

    Heck, had my father's father been alive when I was dating my husband, there would have been the biggest furor, and I'm talking about two Italian regions, with the same religion, roughly the same language, and food. My distant cousin, ten years older than I am, was absolutely forbidden to marry the son of a family which had emigrated north from Campania. That went on for eight years. Only when it became apparent that she would not marry anyone else did they relent.

    You think that it would have been easier in Muslim Egypt? A Muslim girl, hardly let out of the house alone, much less allowed to date, would somehow have married a Greek boy? Or, a Muslim boy would convert, and be ostracized by his family, or perhaps even punished by the civil authorities, in order to marry into the Greek Orthodox community?

    Perhaps you're thinking of the Copts? That too is a separate religion. In the Ottoman Empire, from things I read about the situation in Palestine, marriages had to be performed by the clergyman of your religion. So, since you needed their approval, there literally was no way for people of different religious faiths to marry. The few who managed it had to go abroad and get married in civil ceremonies there.

    It's amazing to me that you post these fantasies as unequivocal fact.
    Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.

    I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.

    Here is also this:

    "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."
    [15]"

    https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt



  10. #510
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.

    I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.

    Here is also this:

    "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."
    [15]"

    https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt


    Those sources are not genetic studies, and it is from an art book from the year 2000, so there's no chance they could have any meaningful scope on the topic of genetic mixing with ancient people.

  11. #511
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Just because your personal experience is different, does not negate the fact that Maniotes and eastern Peloponnesians are quite similar to the Ancient Greeks. That doesn't make them better than Greeks who have 30% Slavic admixture; it just is what it is.

  12. #512
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,685

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Those sources are not genetic studies, and it is from an art book from the year 2000, so there's no chance they could have any meaningful scope on the topic of genetic mixing with ancient people.
    Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ? All I am saying is that there were Greek outposts all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Some of them were very far away from Greece and by necessity could not send home for brides. So they married local women. Now if you are talking about large self sustaining colonies like Siracusa or Taranto maybe they could marry within the Greek community.

  13. #513
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ?
    Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?

    It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're black in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.

    Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.

  14. #514
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,685

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?

    It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're black in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.

    Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.
    I said up to 30%. Look, modern Greeks are an amalgam of different admixed people. We had a lot of immigrants from Pontos, from Eastern and Northern Thrace, the Greek communities of Western Anatolia, Constantinople, Egypt and some communities on the Black Sea. People from the Eastern Thrace area if they are anywhere like me would score around 60-70% Greek and the rest Balkan, whether the Balkan is slavic or an earlier substrate. That does not mean that there are no Greeks that score higher than that but I know there are Greeks that score less than that. The small town I was born in was 90% Arvanites that came over from Eastern Thrace so they might score less. There are Albanians that emigrated from Albania in the last few decades that obtained Greek citizenship. But we are all Greeks now no matter where our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers used to live. There is intermarriage among the Pontic Greeks and the Arvanites, the Peloponnesian's and the Thracians, the Cretans and Smyrniotes, the Egyptiotes and the Thessalians. In couple of generations there will be just traces of other ethnicities. Our biggest cities are our melting pots.

  15. #515
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    349


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Of course it counts, I was referring to the last snippet you posted. Also, being 70% similar to Mycenaeans means nothing to you?

    It is funny how some people think. If an African-American was just 70% SSA, (many of them within that range) they're black in their opinion, and the opinions of many others.

    Also, not all Greeks are that high in Slavic, mainly it is just the Northern Greeks that go up that high.
    Americans with 30% SSA ancestry are also considered black. And the average of SSA American who is 70% African does not even speak an African language, nor do they inhabit the continent of Africa, nor do they have a continuous litterary tradition.

    Modern Greeks being so close to Mycenaeans overall was one of the key discoveries of the last five years in paleogenetics. And still the burden we put on Greeks proving their continuation with Mycenaeans is relatively high. Quite sure there was genetic variety within the Classical Greek world. Greeks from Ancient Epirus, Thrace, Ionia and Cyprus were most likely not entirely similar during Classical times. They most likely did not overlap with Mycenaeans. So why put the burden on all Greeks today being similar to Bronze Age Mycenaeans?

  16. #516
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Modern Italians, with the exception of Sardinians, are very different from the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from the same area, with some resemblance only in Iron Age samples [44]. A notable exception is the fact that the Iron Age Southern Italians here investigated do not overlap with the genetic variation observed in modern-day individuals from the same area, in line with previous observations [35]. Interestingly, three out of the five Neolithic Peloponnesians, together with the totality of Minoans and Mycenaeans included in our dataset, plot towards the genetic variability of people currently inhabiting Southern Peloponnese (Maniots and Tsakonians) and Southern Italian regions (Sicily, Calabria and Apulia) (Fig. 2B). Modern Southern Italians are closer to Southern European Neolithic and Bronze Age samples (Neolithic Peloponnesians and Minoans) than most modern Peloponnesian groups, with the exception of the Deep Mani and Taygetos individuals (Fig. 2B).

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...501?via%3Dihub
    You won't find people closer to the neolithic people of Greece than Deep Mani and Taygetos. With Sicily, Calabria, and Apulia as a close second.

    I hope this puts an end to the discussion of the thread. But odds are, some will be obstinate.

  17. #517
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Americans with 30% SSA ancestry are also considered black. And the average of SSA American who is 70% African does not even speak an African language, nor do they inhabit the continent of Africa, nor do they have a continuous litterary tradition.

    Modern Greeks being so close to Mycenaeans overall was one of the key discoveries of the last five years in paleogenetics. And still the burden we put on Greeks proving their continuation with Mycenaeans is relatively high. Quite sure there was genetic variety within the Classical Greek world. Greeks from Ancient Epirus, Thrace, Ionia and Cyprus were most likely not entirely similar during Classical times. They most likely did not overlap with Mycenaeans. So why put the burden on all Greeks today being similar to Bronze Age Mycenaeans?
    This burden is purely manufactured by people wishing to hijack their ancestry. First by the Philhellenes, then by the Nazis, and now by obscure incel losers on the internet. I would throw woke people in there too, but they are trying to deny all European people of their identity and sense of belonging, as a tenant of the global guidelines for aDNA research; explicitly so.

  18. #518
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    306

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.

    I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.

    Here is also this:

    "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."
    [15]"

    https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt



    Bravo! Well said!


    For the ancient Athenians:


    “Έλληνας καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ...”

    "Greeks are those who have a Greek education ..."


    Isocrates,
    Panigyricus 50.

  19. #519
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    This burden is purely manufactured by people wishing to hijack their ancestry. First by the Philhellenes, then by the Nazis, and now by obscure incel losers on the internet. I would throw woke people in there too, but they are trying to deny all European people of their identity and sense of belonging, as a tenant of the global guidelines for aDNA research; explicitly so.
    Razib Khan has a great article on the topic:

    https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...s-to-me-part-1

    https://razib.substack.com/p/theyre-...s-to-me-part-2

    Hitler himself had a fascination with proving that the ancient Greeks were Nordic, and was actually annoyed by the Nazi research focus on Northern Europe:

    Of course, this thinking fed into the ideology that justified Nazi racial history, which synthesized the valorization of ancient Greece that was the norm in 19th-century Germany with scientifically concocted racial theories. While some in the Nazi elite sought to confirm the glories of the Aryan race through an archaeological and ethnographic investigation of Northern Europe, Heather Pringle in The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust reports that Adolf Hitler himself had only contempt for these endeavors. Heinrich Himmler, leader of the SS, exulted in the recovery of ancient clay pots in Scandinavia, but Hitler was insistent that the most outstanding achievements of the fair-haired Aryans had occurred in the Mediterranean, where the Nordic race had been invigorated by the healthful influence of the bright southern sun that unleashed their cultural dynamism, blossoming into the glories of Rome and Greece.

  20. #520
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Bravo! Well said!


    For the ancient Athenians:


    “Έλληνας καλείσθαι τους της παιδεύσεως της ημετέρας ...”

    "Greeks are those who have a Greek education ..."


    Isocrates,
    Panigyricus 50.
    This guy born in 436 BC. I don't see how this is different from someone like Joe Biden today saying anyone with a U.S. passport is an American. Clearly, the original Americans were Anglo-Saxon stock.

    Of course when we are talking about Greeks, we are speaking of the people who are indigenous to Bronze age Greece. We know from the Southern Arc paper, that they are a 1:10 ratio between Minoan and Yamnaya.

  21. #521
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    306

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Does the Himera study count? Was it the Limes study that established that modern Greeks have up to 30% Slavic admixture+70% Mycenaean ? All I am saying is that there were Greek outposts all over the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Some of them were very far away from Greece and by necessity could not send home for brides. So they married local women. Now if you are talking about large self sustaining colonies like Siracusa or Taranto maybe they could marry within the Greek community.

    And for modern Greeks I would add (in a quote by Glykatzi - Arveler):

    "Ουδέποτε το όνομα Έλλην ξαναβρήκε όλη του την αίγλη, αλλά το Ρωμηός, Ρωμαίος, σήμαινε Έλληνας το γένος και τη γλώσσα, η οποία γλώσσα ήταν γραικική και τα ήθη ρωμαϊκά ..."

    "The name Hellene never regained all its glory (mine: since antiquity), but Rhomeos, Rhoman, meant Greek in the genos and language, which language was Greek and manners (mine: tradition) Rhoman ..."

    The Greeks were (Eastern) Rhomans but not all (Eastern) Rhomans were strictly Greek.

    But, all together, their descendants, the modern Greeks, is the Orthodox nation of Jesus Christ, and their language is Koine Greek, the language of the New Testament.



    Edit:

    Edit: This popular rendition of the Medieval poem encapsulates perfectly the essence of what it means to be modern Greek:



  22. #522
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    30-03-21
    Location
    Patra
    Posts
    57


    Ethnic group
    Peloponnese/Central Greece
    Country: Greece



    There's definitely been mixing nowadays in Greece but it's still not as frequent as you make it to be. I'm 20 years old and the vast majority of my friends relatives and other people I come regularly in touch with are still pretty much "pure" Greeks. Although of course there's been mixing one of my closest friends is half ukrano polish for example and I live in the 3rd largest city of Greece

  23. #523
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,685

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Bill7 View Post
    There's definitely been mixing nowadays in Greece but it's still not as frequent as you make it to be. I'm 20 years old and the vast majority of my friends relatives and other people I come regularly in touch with are still pretty much "pure" Greeks. Although of course there's been mixing one of my closest friends is half ukrano polish for example and I live in the 3rd largest city of Greece
    My one sister who is Thracian married a mainland Greek from Aitoloakarnania the other married a man from Chalkidiki. So people don't necessarily marry people from their villages and small towns they marry people from other areas. My uncle married an Arvanite woman. People are not just marrying other people from their insular community.

  24. #524
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    349


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    My one sister who is Thracian married a mainland Greek from Aitoloakarnania the other married a man from Chalkidiki. So people don't necessarily marry people from their villages and small towns they marry people from other areas. My uncle married an Arvanite woman. People are not just marrying other people from their insular community.
    Ofcourse, regionalism is in decline all over Europe. But at much faster speed compared to what it was decades ago. Greece is no exception. Back in the day there weren't even roads to connect different locations. People were isolated in their own micro-cosmos. Confined by the mountains around them. They even had their own dishes and music. Some locations in Greece could only be reached through sea. And small islands were almost completely isolated. Now there are many millions of tourists annually from all over the world. There are highways on the mainland. You can get anywhere within hours of driving. You can meet anyone on a dating app.

  25. #525
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Congratulations to all the pure Greeks that went back to Greece and brought back Greek brides and had their kids marry other Greeks. But this is not about personal experience is it? If I go by personal experience my two best friends and I all married non-Greeks or mixed Greek Americans.

    I go by the fact that most Pontic Greeks test very close to the Laz people. Same with Greeks from Georgia. I go by the Himera paper in which we see admixture with local people. I go by the fact that there is up to 30% slavic admixture in modern Greeks. Remember that Alexander the Great married 3 Persian women himself and presided in 324 in a mass wedding of 80 of his generals and nobles to local Persian noble women. Before Constantine established a state religion there were many religions in the Roman Empire and before that during the Hellenistic period the rulers respected the local religion and customs. This exclusivity and prohibition of other religions was found in Abrahamic religions.

    Here is also this:

    "By the Roman period, much of the "Greek" population of Faiyum was made-up of either Hellenized Egyptians or people of mixed Egyptian-Greek origins.[14] By the time of Roman emperor Caracalla in the 2nd century CE, the only way to differentiate Alexandria's "Greeks" from "genuine" ethnic Egyptians was "by their speech."
    [15]"

    https://history.fandom.com/wiki/Gree...co-Roman_Egypt


    We were discussing how much Greek admixture there might be in Egyptians of the Hellenistic Era, an era of which you seem to know very little in terms of its history. Didn't stop you from making dogmatic statements which are impossible to verify, as usual.

    So you found a book by a Classics professor which seemed to support your position.

    Actually, the place to go if you want to find out the genetic make up of Egyptians in the Hellenic and Roman Eras is to population geneticists, not Classics professors who are purely guessing.

    It seems you forgot the paper which tested a 1200 year transect of time in an area near Fayum, Egypt, including the period of the Hellenic conquest.

    See:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    Verena J. Schuenemann et al, with Wolfgang Haak and Johannes Strauss.

    "Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society55. Under Ptolemaic and Roman rule, ethnic descent was crucial to belonging to an elite group and afforded a privileged position in society55. Especially in the Roman Period there may have been significant legal and social incentives to marry within one’s ethnic group, as individthuals with Roman citizenship had to marry other Roman citizens to pass on their citizenship. Such policies are likely to have affected the intermarriage of Romans and non-Rniomans to a degree55"

    Their findings support my conclusions on the matter, based on an understanding of the social relations between the different ethnic groups in Hellenic Egypt, which was that while there was probably some admixture between the Egyptians and the Greeks, it probably did not reach significant levels. In fact, they go further and point out a fact of which I was unaware, which was that once the Romans took control, there were even some civil impediments to inter-marriage, even with regard to Romans.

    I'd also like to point out that I don't appreciate your constant misrepresentation of the things which I said. This is a case in point; I never said that I thought there was no admixture in this instance. I SAID: there might indeed have been, but given the situation socially and culturally, I doubted it rose to significant levels. I leave the dogmatic statements of certainty with regard to what happened in the past to you.

    I would also point out that what you do continuously is use the social mores of the last few decades as a template for everything which happened in the past. That shows a complete lack of knowledge of history. You also judge all people's actions by your own or those of your friends. Again, I never said nor implied that all Greeks of the diaspora practice endogamy TODAY. I said: it probably depends very much on the area, i.e. the number of Greek-Americans, when they arrived etc. As with historical social behavior, it all depends on the unique circumstances of the individual situation. In terms of what I observe around me, many still practice endogamy, although some indeed do not. As another example from other immigrants to the U.S., the Northern Italian migrants to California at the time of the gold rush disappeared within a few generations as a disparate ethnic group. Why? Partly because they were a few among a sea of Anglos. However, if you go to Howard Beach in New York even today there are a lot of Italian-Americans of 100% Italian descent. Why? Partly, no doubt, because there are tens of thousands of Italian-Americans in one small part of one borough.

    What I find disturbing is that you seem to look upon people who choose, for whatever reason, to marry within their own ethnicity with contempt.

    Stop drawing vast generalizations to fit your political persuasions. There's also nothing wrong with taking pride in one's ethnic identity.
















Page 21 of 25 FirstFirst ... 111920212223 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Comparing your autosomal genetics with ancient populations
    By Stefanthro in forum Autosomal Genetics
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 02-05-22, 21:54
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 14-01-21, 19:26
  3. Are Modern Greeks related to Ancient Greeks?
    By HiveMindTerror in forum DNA Testing & General Genetics
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 18-10-20, 23:58
  4. Replies: 32
    Last Post: 13-02-18, 22:18
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13-01-13, 15:55

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •