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Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #551
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    damn didnt notice thanks

  2. #552
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    My results from coordinates from Jovialis posts #528 and 548 above.

    Target Distance Minoan_Odigitria Minoan_Petras Yamnaya_Samara
    PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY 2.79917725 36.5 40.8 22.7
    Average 2.79917725 36.5 40.8 22.7



    Target Distance Minoan_Lasithi Minoan_Odigitria Minoan_Petras Yamnaya_Samara
    PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_scaled_DodK12 0.00757177 19.4 36.8 22.7 21.1
    Average 0.00757177 19.4 36.8 22.7 21.1

  3. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings of the paper.


    ""The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied," said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute.

    This period covered the rule of Alexander the Great (332-323 B.C.), the Ptolemaic dynasty (323-30 B.C.) and part of Roman rule (30 B.C.-A.D. 641). Strict social structures and legal incentives to marry along ethnic lines within these communities may have played a part in the Egyptians' genetic stasis, the paper speculates."

    "A lot of people had assumed foreign invaders ... brought a lot of genetic ancestry into the region," Krause said. "People expected that through time, Egypt would become more European, but we see the exact opposite."
    https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/healt...age/index.html

    Now, if you had said maybe it was different in the Delta, or the sample size was too small, you'd have points with which I could agree, but you posted what is either stupid or a prevarication.

    You once boasted how you aced the SATS while barely studying, or some such. Give me leave to doubt if you can't read a scientific paper and understand what it's saying, and need it summarized and dumbed down by the authors for you to get it.

    That or you're a completely dishonest poster here.

    Either way, try to misrepresent the findings of this study one more time and your posting privileges will be suspended. Am I clear?
    How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?

  4. #554
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?

    The conclusion of the authors is clearly stated in the paper and is contrary to what you claimed. The statements you quoted as supporting your false conclusion were provided by the authors as context i.e. how the question was analyzed in the past, not the results of the genetic analysis which was the subject of the paper itself. These are the kinds of games that media outlets play in order to get away with libel.

    So, if your claim is that you didn't deliberately misrepresent the results, i.e. you knew they didn't actually support your conclusion, then either you didn't read the "whole" paper, where the genetics over time are analyzed, or you weren't intelligent enough to understand what it said.

    Which is it?

    If you didn't read the whole paper carefully it's negligence, while if you didn't understand it, you're not intelligent enough to be posting about genetics papers. Do you prefer that I draw those conclusions?


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    G25 version of "Comparing the modeling of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians"

    Thank you to Lukas for posting the simulation tool.

    It looks the same as the Dodecad K12b version, with some slight variation.

    Code:
    Yamnaya_Samara,0.122482,0.105703,0.050417,0.094832,-0.019530,0.067302,-0.002916,-0.012350,-0.037627,-0.061136,-0.004795,-0.009621,0.015083,0.002641,0.010517,0.012294,-0.005724,-0.000899,-0.002742,-0.009487,-0.005137,0.001379,0.005377,-0.001199,0.000736
    Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0.107965,0.175043,-0.043188,-0.081848,0.018443,-0.046239,0.015567,0.022724,0.002661,0.038483,0.003795,0.008205,-0.012183,-0.000822,-0.006065,-0.010807,0.004190,-0.002213,-0.001629,0.008995,0.002561,0.000974,-0.003401,-0.000084,-0.002337
    Minoan_Lasithi,0.116961,0.183279,-0.029107,-0.086099,0.027212,-0.045190,0.012910,0.021275,0.010535,0.044143,0.003807,0.008700,-0.013195,-0.004722,-0.002464,-0.006743,0.001660,-0.001554,-0.000353,0.006721,0.003549,0.000216,-0.004245,-0.001076,-0.001736
    Minoan_Odigitria,0.117562,0.179047,-0.021343,-0.080214,0.029083,-0.041611,0.011036,0.018722,0.017454,0.048385,0.003171,0.009392,-0.015094,-0.007857,0.000286,-0.003164,-0.000190,-0.000059,0.001772,0.004355,0.004496,0.000056,-0.005525,-0.001839,-0.001131
    Minoan_Petras,0.100377,0.176276,-0.029971,-0.085329,0.025730,-0.044810,0.011952,0.021085,0.008989,0.041663,0.003582,0.007105,-0.010081,-0.003382,-0.003147,-0.006996,0.001746,-0.001923,-0.001132,0.007622,0.003310,0.000533,-0.003678,-0.000643,-0.001788



    My maternal grandmother came from Paliohori, Arcadia! I've never seen this sample before where did you find this?

  6. #556
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    3 members found this post helpful.


    PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.

    Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:



    Code:
    Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021,2.02,0.51,1.68,0.46,32.46,23.57,0,0.25,7.97,0,30.09,1
    Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021,7.05,1.16,0.26,0,31.18,28.21,0,0.13,4.25,0.92,24.07,2.77
    Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021,0,0,5.75,0.07,41.42,0.91,0,0.03,13.26,0.69,35.94,1.94
    Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021,0.13,0,2.62,0,36.59,0.3,0,0,13.35,0.53,45.02,1.45
    Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021,4.64,0,2.77,0,32.51,1.12,0,0,11.34,0.32,45.28,2.02
    Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
    Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
    Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35
    Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
    Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
    Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
    Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
    Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
    Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
    Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
    Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
    Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
    Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
    NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019,1.2,0,2.31,0,22.09,16.57,0,0,20.72,2.25,34.86,0
    NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019,0.47,0,4.06,0,36.68,5.45,0,0,12.64,0,40.71,0
    Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017,5.02,0,5.95,0,40.19,14.38,0,0,10.66,0,23.79,0
    Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
    Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
    Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
    Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
    GRC_Anc_lc:I17960,5.36,0,0,0,42.92,4.68,0,4.95,17.09,0,25,0
    GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lc:I13513_d,31.26,0,7.84,0,37.36,0,0,0,0,0,16.51,7.03
    GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17959,0,0,8.54,0,41.76,4.79,0.66,0,6.3,0,31.75,6.21
    GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962,0.06,0,3.38,0,34.64,9.52,0,0,13.96,0,38.41,0.03
    GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833,10.29,0,1.72,1.05,19.47,7.73,0,0.21,17.41,0.01,41.68,0.42
    GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
    GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872,0,0,0,0,47.61,16.94,0,0,20.45,0,15,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571,0,0,1.64,0,35.27,6.83,0.7,0.15,13.84,0,41.49,0.07
    GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582,4.53,0,0.92,0,37.27,7.66,0,0,14.58,0,33.89,1.15
    GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709,0.19,0,0.01,0,37.3,9.73,0,0.7,10.32,0,41.76,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc:I13536_d,20.92,0.52,0,0,58.77,0,0,5.31,6.03,0.33,8.13,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428,0,0,1.84,1.71,36.38,12.43,0,0,12.93,0,33.33,1.38
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13433,13.68,0,9,0,44.13,3.91,0,0,3.36,0,25.92,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531,1.13,0,0,0,41.42,8.5,0,0,24.65,0,24.31,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532,12.5,3.41,0,0,44.31,10.13,0,0,15.75,0.83,13.08,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577,2.53,0,2.04,0,33.85,13.18,0,0,9.85,0,38.55,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578,0,0,0.53,1.29,36.65,11.19,0,0,13.64,0,36.7,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579,0,0,6.05,0,39.89,8.35,0,0,9.11,0.68,35.54,0.38
    GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580,0,0,0,1.88,39.34,13.06,3.84,0.49,9.46,0,31.93,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA:I6420_d,9.95,0,0,0,25.98,2.98,8.46,0,10.77,0,41.85,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d,0.42,0,4.22,0,37.3,10.96,0,0,12.06,0,33.29,1.75
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13510,1.92,0,2.31,0,25.3,4.43,0,0.75,13.83,0,50.95,0.51
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514,0.95,0.27,1.01,0,36.38,9.69,0,0,14.02,0.44,36.97,0.28
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516,0,0,0.29,0,36.62,7.11,0,0,10.35,0,45.62,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d,5.93,0,1.29,0,29.47,8.9,0,1.56,11.07,0.47,40.66,0.66
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518,1.94,0,3.13,0,34.67,11.03,0,0.24,10.94,0,37.88,0.17
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13519_d,4.35,0,0.06,0,21.58,9.83,0,0,9.52,0,54.65,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364,1.47,0.43,0,0,43.97,3.16,2.4,1.03,9.64,0,37.9,0
    GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366,3.12,0,1.75,1.41,30.86,7.95,0,0,14.35,0,40.57,0
    GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368,5.03,0,3.65,0,27.74,15.8,0,0,7.46,0,39.85,0.48
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878,7.68,0,2.45,0.39,42.04,4.78,0,0,15.54,0,27.11,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879,10.6,0.42,0,0,33.53,0,12.83,0,18.24,0,24.39,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881,8.56,0,10.82,1.79,35.00,0,0,0,8.36,6.78,28.69,0
    Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884,13.72,0,5.57,0,31.10,5.86,0,0,12.13,0,31.61,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887,6.04,0,2.01,0,48,1.93,0,0.5,0,0,41.51,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160,0,3.56,0,0,48.09,6.29,0,0,0,0,40.21,1.85
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20161,8.17,0,0,0,48.11,0.15,0,0,18.81,5.19,19.56,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162,0.54,4.57,4.04,0,38.38,6.06,1.58,1.42,12.16,0,31.24,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163,0,0,1.01,0,44.03,15.69,0,0,9.47,0,25.85,3.95
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166,1.3,0,2.27,0,24.86,17.92,0,0,13.05,0,40.39,0.21
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167,25.91,2.37,0,0,32.61,10.08,0,0,2.47,0,26.56,0
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168,3.15,0,5.53,0,27.61,10.89,1.03,0,8.76,5.28,37.74,0
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217,3.47,0,3.7,1.5,36.68,8.46,0,0,10.54,0,34.73,0.93
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218,1.53,0.56,1.25,0,38.25,9.27,0,0.74,13.01,0.56,33.99,0.85
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219,0,0,2.62,0,34.85,9.15,0,0,11.07,0.18,40.95,1.18
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221,3.06,0.08,1.62,0.41,29.82,7.16,0,0,11.3,0.78,44.15,1.62
    Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223,0.26,0.14,2.97,0.87,41.92,13.23,0.2,0,10.42,0,28.22,1.77
    Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224,0.86,0,2.28,0.62,37.93,12.11,1.09,0,9.92,0,33.83,1.36
    Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225,0.92,0,2.71,0.52,43.93,8.64,0,0,7.8,0.99,33.38,1.1
    Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432,0,0.13,3.96,1.03,47.81,6.96,0,0,8.93,0.32,29.64,1.22
    Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866,1.68,0,1.94,0,32.63,9.06,0,0,13.94,0.50,39.80,0.44
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952,0.81,0,3.09,0.31,35.29,10.84,0,0,10.74,0,37.6,1.32
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948,2.23,0,3.8,0.53,38.48,7.24,0.06,0,12.5,0.59,33.38,1.19
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945,3.57,0.02,3.49,0,34.37,8.7,1.25,0,9.75,0.51,37.33,1
    Yamnaya_Samara

    Code:
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015,29.21,3.13,0,0,3.94,57.21,2.44,0,0,0,3.33,0.75
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015,30.56,1.4,0,0,7.38,54.65,1.41,0,0,0,4.49,0.12
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015,30.97,3.96,0,0,4.88,57.16,0.12,0,0,0,1.92,0.99
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015,28.47,1.92,0,0,3.71,62.57,0.96,0.21,0,0,1.45,0.7
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015,26.82,1.54,0,0.39,0.6,60.83,1.8,0,0,0,7.77,0.25
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015,24.1,0.47,0,0.94,8.87,55.96,2.12,0,0,0,7.16,0.37
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015,33.85,2.03,0,0.21,1.48,59.11,2.63,0,0,0,0,0.69
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015,29.61,2.46,0,0,3.67,58.66,0.07,0,0,0,4.84,0.69
    Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015,29.41,1.68,0,0,6.52,59.52,0.6,0.02,0,0,1.07,1.19

  7. #557
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Iron age greeks seem even more similar to modern southern italians and Cycladic inhabitants and appear a bit more north shifted on the PCA: maybe the interaction both with the doric and anatolian world brought a little bit more EHG and CHG admixture? Just some random thoughts looking at the above PCA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.

    Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:


    I wonder if the Helladic_Logkas sample could be seen as a proxy for proto-oscan-like ancestry
    Last edited by Francesco; 03-11-22 at 18:37.

  8. #558
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    Italian
    Country: Italy



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Based on Jovialis set (post #556)

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    5.70363919 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    8.03052925 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    12.87863735 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    14.96215894 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    15.09736401 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    15.74680920 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
    15.90255954 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    16.05556601 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    17.00930922 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    17.33531655 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    17.86014278 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
    18.56199881 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    18.68982343 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    18.78719777 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    18.82408032 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    18.92371792 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    19.09835071 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
    19.58297730 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    19.83113965 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    19.83989163 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
    19.87338924 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    19.88636216 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
    20.07192567 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    20.29479983 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
    20.74404011 NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019

    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 0.9396% / 0.93959741 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    66.6 Helladic_Logkas_MBA
    13.0 Armenoi_Crete
    12.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    8.2 Yamnaya_Samara



    Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    Distance: 0.9166% / 0.91663302
    56.3 Helladic_Logkas_MBA
    13.7 Armenoi_Crete
    13.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    10.1 Yamnaya_Samara
    5.4 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
    1.3 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    3.06750376 79.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015
    3.48007308 76.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 23.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531
    3.60798990 77.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 23.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
    3.84502320 79.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
    3.84723771 80.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 19.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
    3.93460142 85.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 14.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532
    4.08822047 69.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 31.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    4.17124974 75.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.20% Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    4.20626053 70.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 29.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    4.21908645 79.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015
    4.24733767 64.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 36.00% Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    4.28886555 68.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 32.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    4.30920142 81.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.80% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018
    4.34181248 73.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    4.36813518 79.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015
    4.38385392 73.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    4.44805889 65.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 34.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    4.45208663 74.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
    4.48517187 74.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    4.49404327 78.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 21.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015
    4.49481895 86.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 13.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872
    4.49613028 75.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.60% GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
    4.54011291 82.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.00% Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
    4.54865499 79.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015
    4.56255915 74.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582

  9. #559
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    3,531

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - Y79536
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    no where near me

    Distance to: Torziok12b
    13.78342097 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    15.00850116 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    16.01977216 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    17.85823620 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    19.44357477 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    20.84526325 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
    21.86613820 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    22.26714171 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    23.09377838 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    23.50153186 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872
    23.82265308 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    24.11690486 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
    24.28304553 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532
    24.61253542 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    24.73625679 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    24.74051131 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    25.04725933 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    25.21423011 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    25.28458028 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    25.28884932 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    25.72402768 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
    25.74470431 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    25.83917955 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    25.94860883 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    26.07406758 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166


    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 2.9285% / 2.92845448
    33.5 Yamnaya_Samara
    22.8 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    22.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
    21.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    0.7 Helladic_Logkas_MBA
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  10. #560
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.


    Here are my results with Yamnaya_Samara included.

  11. #561
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.


    PCA made with PAST software, using the Dodecad K12b coordinates.

  12. #562
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    ^^I exist in the range of Southern Italy, Central Italy, the Peloponnese, and almost in the Cyclades.

  13. #563
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    1,537

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Sicily-South
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    My model using coordinates from post #556 (thanks Jovialis)


  14. #564
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,692


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Jovialis, I don't see Himera hoplite 480 BC Battle 110946.

    Not my "best" collection of ancient sources in terms of fit, but...

    Distance to: Angela
    8.79353740 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.89120914 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    9.44240435 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    10.83918355 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    11.13374151 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
    12.13746267 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    13.71234116 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    13.95851711 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    13.97269480 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    14.17348934 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    14.29946852 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    15.18984200 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    15.25060982 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    15.72241712 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    15.76320399 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    15.83432979 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    16.01564235 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    16.17007112 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.32866192 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    16.43740855 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    16.63677853 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    16.96022995 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
    17.02822069 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    17.07667708 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162
    17.52376387 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514

    Closest population to Armenoi Crete: I can see why Lazaridis thought the sample might have been partly or fully "foreign".
    Distance to: Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    5.53201591 French_Corsica
    9.91419185 Italian_Tuscany
    10.30954412 Italian_Romagna
    10.34666613 Italian_Liguria
    10.58752096 Italian_Emilia
    10.72514820 Italian_Marche
    11.28459126 Italian_Umbria
    11.86670131 Italian_Lazio
    12.55721307 Italian_Lombardy
    13.45603210 Italian_Piedmont
    14.60639586 Spanish_Canarias
    14.74098029 Italian_Abruzzo
    14.82734973 Italian_Veneto
    15.44883814 Italian_Molise
    15.99574631 Italian_Campania
    16.13880456 Swiss_Italian
    16.21161004 Portuguese
    16.34587104 Italian_Sicily
    16.63360153 Italian_Basilicata
    16.96006486 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    17.07478843 Italian_Friuli_VG
    17.11421339 Spanish_Baleares
    17.41238065 Albanian
    17.51260118 Italian_Trentino
    17.63067214 Spanish_Valencia
    Closest population to Himera 120163
    Distance to: Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    8.05290631 French_Corsica
    11.97538726 Italian_Tuscany
    12.07434470 Italian_Liguria
    12.28813656 Italian_Emilia
    12.85750753 Italian_Lombardy
    13.08214050 Italian_Romagna
    14.16025070 Italian_Umbria
    14.20417770 Italian_Marche
    14.94211832 Italian_Piedmont
    15.53554312 Italian_Lazio
    15.82009482 Italian_Veneto
    16.01502927 Swiss_Italian
    16.04906851 Sardinian
    17.70109319 Spanish_Canarias
    17.70549915 Italian_Trentino
    17.75717883 Spanish_Baleares
    17.99368500 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
    18.23154958 Portuguese
    18.26533055 Spanish_Valencia
    18.35561222 Italian_Friuli_VG
    18.66447428 Italian_Abruzzo
    18.76057302 Italian_Molise
    19.08213562 Spanish_Andalusia
    19.14226476 Albanian
    19.24776091 Italian_Aosta_Valley

    Closest population to soldier 17223
    Distance to: Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    7.64100124 French_Corsica
    12.37324937 Italian_Tuscany
    12.42813679 Italian_Marche
    12.43657509 Italian_Romagna
    12.95873836 Italian_Umbria
    13.19374094 Italian_Liguria
    13.25838225 Italian_Emilia
    13.94157452 Italian_Lazio
    14.84614765 Italian_Lombardy
    15.66525135 Italian_Molise
    15.78862249 Italian_Abruzzo
    16.13977075 Italian_Campania
    16.67125970 Italian_Piedmont
    16.85838664 Sardinian
    17.26569431 Italian_Sicily
    17.39979885 Italian_Veneto
    18.01935071 Italian_Basilicata
    18.02502427 Albanian
    18.39592890 Italian_Calabria
    18.47916293 Swiss_Italian
    18.50314568 Greek_Athens
    18.54495349 Italian_Apulia
    18.66551901 Ashkenazi_Jew
    18.74542611 Greek_Central
    19.42878792 Greek_Thrace

    So, my closest matches are not the Mycenaean like Himera samples.

    Should Corsica be analyzed the way Sardinia is, as harboring very ancient like Mediterranean genomes?


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 3.3004% / 3.30036850 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    38.6 Helladic_Logkas_MBA
    22.9 Armenoi_Crete
    17.9 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    17.2 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
    3.4 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc


    Distance to: Angela
    3.60040894 52.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 47.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    4.00112251 78.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 21.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
    4.24346426 81.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015
    4.43098251 81.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
    4.57583367 81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
    4.67503190 81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015
    4.68577070 83.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015
    4.70055766 78.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 21.20% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc:I13536_d
    4.74081127 81.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 18.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
    4.76773588 84.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
    4.79019152 48.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 51.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    4.79166318 80.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 20.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015
    4.79640390 80.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015
    4.94025401 63.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 37.00% Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016
    5.03265976 81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015
    5.13318271 82.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 17.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015
    5.13985205 37.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 62.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    5.19930224 82.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 17.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015
    5.20117793 83.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015
    5.22064215 64.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 36.00% Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018
    5.24352364 83.20% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015
    5.28231134 83.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 16.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
    5.37179713 63.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 37.00% Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016
    5.37542340 84.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 15.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015
    5.52654783 34.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 65.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    Closest population to Himera 117432:
    Distance to: Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    11.46223364 Sardinian
    14.79113586 French_Corsica
    20.15046153 Italian_Tuscany
    20.19339753 Italian_Marche
    20.47562453 Italian_Romagna
    20.80845742 Italian_Emilia
    20.87084569 Italian_Liguria
    20.99619727 Italian_Umbria
    21.81653272 Italian_Lazio
    22.00034318 Italian_Lombardy
    22.14177048 Italian_Campania
    22.14616220 Italian_Molise
    22.49807992 Italian_Abruzzo
    23.32857047 Italian_Sicily
    23.65573081 Italian_Calabria
    23.96066360 Morocco_Jew
    24.05342179 Italian_Piedmont
    24.16760228 Italian_Basilicata
    24.64280219 Italian_Jew
    24.67446048 Ashkenazi_Jew
    24.90516011 Sephardic_Jew
    24.92396838 Italian_Veneto
    25.39982087 Spanish_Canarias
    25.47048684 Italian_Apulia
    25.49358277 Swiss_Italian

    Closest population to Log 4:
    Distance to: Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    5.64006206 Macedonian_Vardar
    6.12159293 Macedonian_Polog
    6.41073319 Italian_Friuli_VG
    6.41352477 Macedonian_East
    6.83537124 Macedonian_South
    6.91795490 Greek_Macedonia
    7.15973463 Italian_Veneto
    7.30935018 Albanian_Kosovo
    7.69858429 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    7.92521293 Romanian_Muntenia
    8.11762280 Moldovan_Gagauz
    8.39100113 Romanian_Oltenia
    8.54378722 Bulgarian_Central
    8.56044975 Bulgarian_East
    8.59815096 Bulgarian_West
    8.64762973 Italian_Piedmont
    9.23212327 Romanian_Banat
    9.33067522 Greek_Thessaly
    9.34067985 Montenegrin
    9.47814328 Pomak_Bulgaria
    9.49851041 Italian_Trentino
    9.58237444 Italian_Emilia
    9.68784290 Romanian_Dobrogea
    9.70237600 Turk_Makedonya
    9.92411205 Romanian_Transylvania

  15. #565
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Jovialis, I don't see Himera hoplite 480 BC Battle 110946.
    Indeed, I had omitted him because from the labeling I thought he was a mercenary

    Code:
    Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946,4.41,1.02,1.4,0,37.29,25.51,0,0.03,5.81,0,22.6,1.93
    Here's a version with that sample included:


  16. #566
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    02-01-11
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    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks, Jovialis. I asked because when you were looking at all the Himera samples, he came in very often.

    Distance to: Angela
    8.73953088 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    8.79353740 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.89120914 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    9.44240435 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    10.83918355 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    11.13374151 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
    12.13746267 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    13.71234116 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    13.95851711 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    13.97269480 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    14.17348934 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    14.29946852 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    15.18984200 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    15.25060982 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    15.72241712 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    15.76320399 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    15.83432979 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    16.01564235 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    16.17007112 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.32866192 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    16.43740855 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    16.63677853 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    16.96022995 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
    17.02822069 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    17.07667708 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162

    They didn't do the Strontium test on him, did they? He might very well have been a Northern Italian mercenary, as your PCA shows. I know Ligurian mercenaries, for one, were all over the Med. Or, he might have been a settler from there. It amazes me the authors didn't do more complete similarity runs to modern populations.

    Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    2.93308711 Italian_Veneto
    3.07253967 Italian_Piedmont
    3.26599143 Italian_Lombardy
    4.01203190 Italian_Liguria
    4.52730604 Italian_Emilia
    5.03992187 Swiss_Italian
    5.26428533 Italian_Friuli_VG
    5.57457622 Italian_Trentino
    5.90759680 Italian_Tuscany
    8.14992025 Italian_Romagna
    8.46255871 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    9.60735656 French_Corsica
    9.83466827 Italian_Umbria
    10.21314349 Macedonian_Vardar
    10.31406806 Spanish_Baleares
    10.58307139 Albanian_Kosovo
    10.72228054 Macedonian_South
    10.87933362 Macedonian_East
    11.30645391 Macedonian_Polog
    11.36434336 Italian_Lazio
    11.42829821 Portuguese
    11.50418463 Italian_Marche
    11.63881867 Spanish_Canarias
    11.68290632 Greek_Macedonia
    11.83536227 Austrian_Tyrol

    Excellent work.


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329
    60.4 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe
    25.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    7.0 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    4.9 Armenoi_Crete
    1.5 Yamnaya_Samara
    1.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA

    Much closer. With him I don't need the Yamnaya samples.

    The two way is also closer:
    Distance to: Angela
    2.44499086 25.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.01322856 38.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 62.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.29669157 28.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364 + 71.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.56498582 34.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 65.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.60040894 52.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 47.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    3.67632975 27.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.68400475 25.60% Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.72608679 24.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.80837347 24.20% Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.88743179 24.80% Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.92444659 25.40% Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.95277039 25.00% Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.00112251 78.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 21.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
    4.05898212 24.60% Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016 + 75.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.14471368 33.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579 + 66.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.24346426 81.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015
    4.30970473 36.00% Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017 + 64.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.31660957 24.20% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.35796349 22.80% Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018 + 77.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.36932010 22.40% Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 77.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.38236790 19.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017 + 80.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.43098251 81.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
    4.47652697 25.00% Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.57583367 81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
    4.58412671 47.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 52.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946


    Distance to: Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
    24.35054620 Sardinian
    25.06138464 French_Corsica
    26.62032870 Italian_Campania
    27.02743051 Italian_Molise
    27.50897853 Italian_Calabria
    27.56504489 Italian_Abruzzo
    27.59585701 Italian_Marche
    27.79165882 Sephardic_Jew
    27.79760781 Greek_Icaria
    28.10085586 Italian_Sicily
    28.36504363 Italian_Basilicata
    28.64264303 Italian_Umbria
    28.75828055 Italian_Romagna
    28.92046853 Morocco_Jew
    29.07919187 Italian_Lazio
    29.11633219 Italian_Tuscany
    29.15473203 Italian_Jew
    29.52921096 Ashkenazi_Jew
    29.66739625 Greek_Rhodes
    29.94266187 Italian_Emilia
    30.09013460 Italian_Apulia
    30.14666151 Greek_Izmir
    30.15841674 Greek_Kos
    30.36559731 Greek_Fournoi
    30.77873942 Greek_Lemnos

    So, Balkan/North Italian like plus about a quarter more Med like?



    M
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329
    60.4 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe
    25.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    7.0 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    4.9 Armenoi_Crete
    1.5 Yamnaya_Samara
    1.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA

  17. #567
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    8,010

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis. I asked because when you were looking at all the Himera samples, he came in very often.

    Distance to: Angela
    8.73953088 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    8.79353740 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.89120914 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
    9.44240435 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
    10.83918355 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    11.13374151 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
    12.13746267 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
    13.71234116 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
    13.95851711 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
    13.97269480 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    14.17348934 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    14.29946852 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    15.18984200 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
    15.25060982 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
    15.72241712 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    15.76320399 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    15.83432979 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    16.01564235 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
    16.17007112 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    16.32866192 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
    16.43740855 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    16.63677853 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
    16.96022995 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
    17.02822069 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
    17.07667708 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162

    They didn't do the Strontium test on him, did they? He might very well have been a Northern Italian mercenary, as your PCA shows. I know Ligurian mercenaries, for one, were all over the Med. Or, he might have been a settler from there. It amazes me the authors didn't do more complete similarity runs to modern populations.

    Distance to: Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    2.93308711 Italian_Veneto
    3.07253967 Italian_Piedmont
    3.26599143 Italian_Lombardy
    4.01203190 Italian_Liguria
    4.52730604 Italian_Emilia
    5.03992187 Swiss_Italian
    5.26428533 Italian_Friuli_VG
    5.57457622 Italian_Trentino
    5.90759680 Italian_Tuscany
    8.14992025 Italian_Romagna
    8.46255871 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    9.60735656 French_Corsica
    9.83466827 Italian_Umbria
    10.21314349 Macedonian_Vardar
    10.31406806 Spanish_Baleares
    10.58307139 Albanian_Kosovo
    10.72228054 Macedonian_South
    10.87933362 Macedonian_East
    11.30645391 Macedonian_Polog
    11.36434336 Italian_Lazio
    11.42829821 Portuguese
    11.50418463 Italian_Marche
    11.63881867 Spanish_Canarias
    11.68290632 Greek_Macedonia
    11.83536227 Austrian_Tyrol

    Excellent work.


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329
    60.4 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe
    25.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    7.0 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    4.9 Armenoi_Crete
    1.5 Yamnaya_Samara
    1.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA

    Much closer. With him I don't need the Yamnaya samples.

    The two way is also closer:
    Distance to: Angela
    2.44499086 25.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.01322856 38.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225 + 62.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.29669157 28.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364 + 71.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.56498582 34.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 65.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.60040894 52.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 47.40% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432
    3.67632975 27.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160 + 73.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.68400475 25.60% Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.72608679 24.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.80837347 24.20% Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.88743179 24.80% Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018 + 75.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.92444659 25.40% Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016 + 74.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    3.95277039 25.00% Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.00112251 78.80% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 21.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
    4.05898212 24.60% Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016 + 75.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.14471368 33.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579 + 66.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.24346426 81.20% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.80% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015
    4.30970473 36.00% Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017 + 64.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.31660957 24.20% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018 + 75.80% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.35796349 22.80% Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018 + 77.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.36932010 22.40% Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 77.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.38236790 19.80% Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017 + 80.20% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.43098251 81.60% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 18.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
    4.47652697 25.00% Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021 + 75.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946
    4.57583367 81.00% Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432 + 19.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
    4.58412671 47.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 52.60% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe:I10946


    Distance to: Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887
    24.35054620 Sardinian
    25.06138464 French_Corsica
    26.62032870 Italian_Campania
    27.02743051 Italian_Molise
    27.50897853 Italian_Calabria
    27.56504489 Italian_Abruzzo
    27.59585701 Italian_Marche
    27.79165882 Sephardic_Jew
    27.79760781 Greek_Icaria
    28.10085586 Italian_Sicily
    28.36504363 Italian_Basilicata
    28.64264303 Italian_Umbria
    28.75828055 Italian_Romagna
    28.92046853 Morocco_Jew
    29.07919187 Italian_Lazio
    29.11633219 Italian_Tuscany
    29.15473203 Italian_Jew
    29.52921096 Ashkenazi_Jew
    29.66739625 Greek_Rhodes
    29.94266187 Italian_Emilia
    30.09013460 Italian_Apulia
    30.14666151 Greek_Izmir
    30.15841674 Greek_Kos
    30.36559731 Greek_Fournoi
    30.77873942 Greek_Lemnos

    So, Balkan/North Italian like plus about a quarter more Med like?



    M
    Target: Angela
    Distance: 1.7792% / 1.77917329
    60.4 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Balkans_Cent-Europe
    25.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
    7.0 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
    4.9 Armenoi_Crete
    1.5 Yamnaya_Samara
    1.2 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
    I think it is likely, given where he plots on the PCA.


    I too am curious to see where the Campanian samples plot in relation to the ones we currently have. As well as the link the Kingjohn provided with the 102 new samples.


    As for the quality of scholarship when it comes to papers, I have little faith anymore. Other than the raw data and occasional undeniable archeological identification, many authors seem to be very obtuse with their conclusions.

  18. #568
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1b2a2a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b7

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    If I win the $1.5 billion Powerball Jackpot on Saturday, one of my personal goals is to set up my own lab, hire non-bias researchers, and sequence all of the unexplored aDNA that tickles my interest. :)

    I think that would be possible with a $745 million dollar payout considering the Reich lab did all they have done with a measly $400,000 grant.

  19. #569
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-09-16
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    Country: Germany



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If I win the $1.5 billion Powerball Jackpot on Saturday, one of my personal goals is to set up my own lab, hire non-bias researchers, and sequence all of the unexplored aDNA that tickles my interest. :)

    I think that would be possible with a $745 million dollar payout considering the Reich lab did all they have done with a measly $400,000 grant.


    You would do us, all archaeogenetics enthusiasts, a great service, and I'd be very grateful to you. Good luck!!!
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

  20. #570
    Regular Member
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    26-11-16
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    592


    Country: United States



    I made a Greek average from six Himera individuals that scored Mycenean and southern MKD IA, half of the individuals carried minor Sicilian(below 10%) mixture.

    This is the classical Greek profile I was able to filter from six Himera individuals which showed almost entirely Mycenaean and MKD IA ancestry.

    Code:
    Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE_1:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667

    With Mycenaean.



    Without Mycenaean



    Code:
    ALB_Çinamak_Anc:Average,0.12475,0.1537512,0.0302452,-0.0142766,0.0300362,-0.0074186,0.003008,0.0005078,-0.001636,0.0248934,0.0011366,0.0071936,-0.0192368,-0.0072664,-0.0093376,-0.0049058,0.0066756,0.0026096,0.0039722,-0.0091042,-0.007986,0.0025474,-0.0043382,0.0057118,-0.0064664
    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:Average,0.1227012,0.153345,0.0232306,-0.0133722,0.0244968,-0.0063586,-0.0016922,-0.0033692,0.0006136,0.0272624,0.0058134,0.0063242,-0.0168878,-0.0066334,-0.0106676,-0.0031822,0.0011472,0.0044846,0.007944,-0.0095546,-0.0135512,0.0084826,-0.0017008,0.009688,-0.0026104
    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:Average,0.123498,0.1563915,0.0197985,-0.024225,0.029852,-0.013526,-0.0052875,-0.0064615,0.008897,0.0303425,0.0007305,0.0059945,-0.0118185,0.0056425,-0.0113325,-0.01664,-0.0086055,0.001457,0.005845,-0.016633,-0.0117295,0.0039565,0.0019105,0.005362,-0.001916
    South_Thracian:Average,0.120342,0.162484636363636,0.00750790909090909,-0.0525021818181818,0.0298237272727273,-0.0213985454545455,-0.000427272727272727,-0.00148963636363636,0.0115091818181818,0.0437533636363636,0.002864,0.00821554545454545,-0.0182042727272727,-0.000963272727272727,-0.0228134545454545,-0.0118847272727273,0.00982618181818182,0.00269490909090909,0.00823909090909091,-0.00983418181818182,-0.00948327272727273,0.005598,-0.00368618181818182,0.00316554545454545,-0.00649918181818182
    
    Classical_Greek_Himera_6th_BCE_1:Average,0.119134833333333,0.161807666666667,-0.00804533333333333,-0.0634156666666667,0.0238505,-0.0244958333333333,-0.00317266666666667,-0.00446133333333333,0.00657883333333333,0.0417321666666667,0.0026525,0.0105905,-0.019202,-0.0009175,-0.0167615,-0.0124413333333333,0.00986566666666667,-0.0004855,0.00689233333333333,-0.00862916666666667,-0.0100863333333333,0.007048,-0.000534166666666667,0.00576366666666667,-0.00275416666666667
    POL_Weklice_Early_Goths:Average,0.133660714285714,0.129552571428571,0.0762861428571429,0.065892,0.043085,0.0241838571428571,0.00553942857142857,0.0118347142857143,0.00745042857142857,-0.007758,-0.00675071428571429,0.00389657142857143,-0.00736928571428571,-0.00650742857142857,0.0185354285714286,0.0119141428571429,0.00378085714285714,0.000688,0.00183171428571429,0.00644957142857143,0.007986,0.00245528571428571,-0.00151428571428571,0.011912,-0.00145414285714286
    Slav_MA,0.1292408,0.1278645,0.0744299,0.0667435,0.0442321,0.0231226,0.0087166,0.012545,-0.0003718,-0.0232598,-0.00248,-0.0092645,0.0149742,0.0188792,-0.0083037,0.0013741,0.0066141,-0.0015894,0.0034395,0.003297,-0.0047075,-0.0031365,0.0046274,-0.0053785,0.0002395
    Sargat_IA:Average,0.093477,-0.068548125,0.0658075,0.0608855,-0.049201625,-6.98750000000006E-05,0.003055125,0.004442,-0.01516025,-0.02890725,0.014899125,-0.00252875,0.008566625,-0.033236,0.002680375,0.001027625,-0.009664875,0.00121925,-0.001853875,-0.003329625,-0.009343,0.006244375,0.001802375,0.003057625,0.001167625
    MNG_Early_Xiongnu:Average,0.0668927692307692,-0.207246076923077,0.0557848461538462,0.0257157692307692,-0.0602005384615385,-0.009375,0.00723107692307692,0.00658553846153846,-0.0122085384615385,-0.0164993846153846,-0.0166386153846154,-0.00288215384615385,-0.000903461538461539,-0.0122060769230769,0.0140104615384615,0.000917846153846154,-0.00948784615384615,0.00161784615384615,0.00147938461538462,0.00503115384615384,-0.0186401538461538,-0.00195938461538462,-0.00628553846153846,0.00203923076923077,0.00205415384615385
    AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LC:ALX002,0.097888,0.137096,-0.06939,-0.072675,-0.023697,-0.013666,0.005875,-0.003692,-0.024338,-0.00164,0.011205,-0.013338,0.012636,0.00578,-0.020765,0.030893,0.024903,0.004181,-0.000251,-0.007754,0.004617,0.015086,-0.003944,-0.015544,-0.005508
    ARM_Noratus_Anc:Average,0.0944735,0.137604,-0.05638,-0.0637925,-0.0253895,-0.019941,0.0038775,-0.005192,-0.0223955,-0.0041,0.00609,0.00517,-0.006764,-0.0052985,-0.0010855,0.00305,0.009453,-0.001964,0.005594,-0.0068785,0.003993,-0.00136,0.0019105,-0.0025905,0.003353
    IRN_Hasanlu_C_BA_&_IA:Average,0.0949608571428571,0.126070714285714,-0.0649725714285714,-0.0443432857142857,-0.0409744285714286,-0.00844628571428571,0.00688228571428571,-0.00458228571428571,-0.0376322857142857,-0.0118451428571429,0.00605485714285714,6.42857142857142E-05,0.000977,-0.00359785714285714,0.000853,0.00746271428571429,-0.000707857142857143,0.00356528571428571,0.00301685714285714,-0.00394842857142857,0.00180042857142857,-0.00439857142857143,-0.00508828571428571,-0.00719542857142857,0.00138571428571429
    Levant_PPNB:Average,0.0774,0.165192666666667,-0.0314266666666667,-0.139752333333333,0.035699,-0.063215,-0.0110453333333333,-0.012999,0.0681746666666667,0.0413676666666667,0.0197033333333333,-0.014287,0.0312683333333333,-0.00197266666666667,-0.0285013333333333,0.009016,0.0160803333333333,-0.00135133333333333,-0.00439966666666667,0.019926,-0.00391,0.008491,-0.00209533333333333,-0.00397633333333333,-0.006267
    ISR_Natufian_EpiP,0.034147,0.152329,-0.022627,-0.140506,0.042162,-0.085062,-0.016921,-0.015692,0.12476,0.019317,0.028743,-0.025327,0.085926,-0.004129,0.004886,-0.014054,-0.011213,-0.007855,-0.02074,0.023136,0.01123,0.001607,0.00912,0.003735,-0.003233
    Berber_Tunisia_Chen,-0.0279499,0.1390711,-0.0080871,-0.0764792,0.0277316,-0.0352023,-0.0313867,0.0052818,0.0684246,0.0297957,0.0040057,-0.0043877,0.0196314,-0.0161248,0.0140923,-0.0169052,0.0001521,-0.0232896,-0.0467247,0.0078579,-0.0168314,-0.0404275,0.0281347,-0.0044517,0.0063666
    South of Olympus mountain, MKD_Southeast_Valandovo likely represents Vlach and partial Albanian ancestry though some of it can easily have been transmitted during imperial time and the barbarian migrations. MKD Southeast average is made of two individuals that are Vezerzug Balkan like in the majority of their profile, therefore a northern Thracian like component. A good candidate for ancestral Vlach and partially Albanian.
    South of Olympus mountain, South Thracian is mostly tied to Albanian like ancestry, maybe partially Vlach. For Greek islands, it's hard to say, some of the islands next to Thrace have a strong south Thracian ancestry, and likely represent refugees when the Slavs ravaged Thrace.

  21. #571
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Way too many overlapping ancient populations. First I just want to see the distances of all those modern Greek populations to Mycenaeans and Minoans. Then, to the Himera samples.

    This doesn't give us the right information.

    Just post the coordinates for the modern Greek samples and I'll do it myself.

  22. #572
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    It's true, there are a lot of values, but Greeks are not made of only one Balkan source. There are Vlach and Albanians who migrated into Greece during the medieval period, that have a different ancient Balkan IA background. These two groups likely represent about 16-20% of modern Greek genome, similar to the overall Slavic mixture.

    It's a model for Balkan Greeks. For south Italian Greeks, or Trebezon, it would make sense to remove the other Balkan IA averages. It all depends on whom you're trying to model. The model result do seem reasonable on estimating on how much ancient Greek profile survived in modern Greece. Maybe people will disagree.

  23. #573
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    PCA made with PAST software, using the Dodecad K12b coordinates.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    It's true, there are a lot of values, but Greeks are not made of only one Balkan source. There are Vlach and Albanians who migrated into Greece during the medieval period, that have a different ancient Balkan IA background. These two groups likely represent about 16-20% of modern Greek genome, similar to the overall Slavic mixture.

    It's a model for Balkan Greeks. For south Italian Greeks, or Trebezon, it would make sense to remove the other Balkan IA averages. It all depends on whom you're trying to model. The model result do seem reasonable on estimating on how much ancient Greek profile survived in modern Greece. Maybe people will disagree.
    I don't understand what "you" don't understand. If I want to know how close modern Greeks, no matter their ancestors over time, are to Mycenaeans, then I compare each modern Greek population to Mycenaeans, PERIOD. All of the other populations are irrelevant.

    None of this will tell you how close Classical Era Greeks were to Mycenaeans unless we assume Classical Era Greeks were like the Empuries sample, which isn't a bad assumption. You do understand that Classical Era Greeks are the Greeks of the late first millennium B.C. and the early Imperial Era, yes?

    If you won't give me the coordinates I'll find them myself. What you're doing won't answer the question.

  24. #574
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    Regarding phenotype, this could be a random everyday person in Southern Italy, or Greece.

  25. #575
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Regarding phenotype, this could be a random everyday person in Southern Italy, or Greece.
    One of our American posters once stated that as to the question of where the ancient Romans went, they didn't go anywhere. All you had to do was go to a museum in Italy, look at the statues, and look at the Italians around you. :)

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