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Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I believe it’s an expanded collection that includes simulated K 36,, K 13, Dodecanese, and G 25. However, those samples are from 2019 (not sure when those you mentioned were added) so I’m sure there’s been a lot of additions since then. I believe there were several K 13 samples from the Peloponnese added.
    Metadworf: Ok, thanks. I added the data in sequence, started with page 14, then 15. When I put in the data from page 16. Got an error. I think Crete_763 is missing some coordinates. When I deleted it and ran the source data from pp 14-16, got it to run. My top 25 from that run using the data from pp.14-16 (excluding Crete_763).

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.01776527 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
    0.01974334 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.02149438 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
    0.02174661 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
    0.02245698 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
    0.02337302 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
    0.02556652 Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
    0.02640373 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
    0.02714290 Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
    0.02721700 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02750559 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02848879 Greek_Crete:778
    0.02858355 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
    0.02896899 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
    0.02902010 Greek_Crete:756
    0.02906835 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02914857 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
    0.02920876 Greek_Crete:Crete8
    0.02995339 Greek_Crete:Crete3
    0.03005557 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17
    0.03012488 Greek_Crete:790
    0.03029585 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25
    0.03044015 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
    0.03044038 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
    0.03044611 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.01713239 Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
    0.01776527 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
    0.01874231 Italian_Apulia:cera8
    0.01888596 Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
    0.01932576 Italian_Apulia:cera9
    0.01963174 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.01964434 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.01974334 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.01999295 Italian_Lazio:NOR28
    0.02047439 Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02087089 Italian_Basilicata:PG19
    0.02149438 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
    0.02160112 Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
    0.02174661 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
    0.02200174 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
    0.02224918 Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
    0.02227362 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
    0.02245698 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
    0.02254037 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
    0.02254705 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.02273719 Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
    0.02281146 Italian_Basilicata:PG18
    0.02284391 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02304390 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
    0.02326530 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.02329825 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02337302 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
    0.02344557 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
    0.02353511 Italian_Basilicata:PG17
    0.02356284 Italian_Basilicata:PG25
    0.02382436 Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
    0.02392702 Italian_Basilicata:PG24
    0.02410880 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
    0.02429385 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02430576 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02441971 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
    0.02482137 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
    0.02484722 Italian_Basilicata:PG21
    0.02488643 Italian_Apulia:ITS7
    0.02498739 Italian_Umbria:PG03
    0.02507645 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
    0.02512626 Italian_Molise:PG27
    0.02522220 Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
    0.02550033 Italian_Molise:PG26
    0.02550403 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
    0.02550696 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
    0.02556543 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02556652 Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
    0.02569943 Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
    0.02586840 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02588653 Italian_Apulia:Pu2
    0.02599414 Italian_Umbria:PG05
    0.02633758 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
    0.02640373 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
    0.02663396 Italian_Apulia:GS32
    0.02714290 Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
    0.02721700 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02722742 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02729330 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
    0.02744356 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.02750559 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02751138 Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
    0.02764050 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
    0.02773377 Italian_Campania:ITS4
    0.02774538 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.02778738 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
    0.02779267 Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
    0.02779985 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02791726 Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
    0.02818646 Italian_Umbria:PG07
    0.02821885 Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
    0.02835150 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
    0.02845071 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02848879 Greek_Crete:778
    0.02855166 Italian_Lazio:PG30
    0.02858355 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
    0.02862506 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
    0.02874658 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02890658 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
    0.02896899 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
    0.02897627 Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
    0.02899432 Italian_Apulia:cera2
    0.02902010 Greek_Crete:756
    0.02906835 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02914857 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
    0.02917512 Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
    0.02920876 Greek_Crete:Crete8
    0.02922918 Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
    0.02928449 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02946591 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

  3. #28
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    No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.
    Island Greeks, Maniots, and the people of Tsakonia will be very interested to learn they're not really Greek.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.01713239 Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
    0.01776527 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
    0.01874231 Italian_Apulia:cera8
    0.01888596 Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
    0.01932576 Italian_Apulia:cera9
    0.01963174 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.01964434 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.01974334 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.01999295 Italian_Lazio:NOR28
    0.02047439 Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02087089 Italian_Basilicata:PG19
    0.02149438 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
    0.02160112 Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
    0.02174661 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
    0.02200174 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
    0.02224918 Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
    0.02227362 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
    0.02245698 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
    0.02254037 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
    0.02254705 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.02273719 Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
    0.02281146 Italian_Basilicata:PG18
    0.02284391 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02304390 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
    0.02326530 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.02329825 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02337302 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
    0.02344557 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
    0.02353511 Italian_Basilicata:PG17
    0.02356284 Italian_Basilicata:PG25
    0.02382436 Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
    0.02392702 Italian_Basilicata:PG24
    0.02410880 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
    0.02429385 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02430576 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02441971 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
    0.02482137 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
    0.02484722 Italian_Basilicata:PG21
    0.02488643 Italian_Apulia:ITS7
    0.02498739 Italian_Umbria:PG03
    0.02507645 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
    0.02512626 Italian_Molise:PG27
    0.02522220 Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
    0.02550033 Italian_Molise:PG26
    0.02550403 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
    0.02550696 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
    0.02556543 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02556652 Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
    0.02569943 Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
    0.02586840 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02588653 Italian_Apulia:Pu2
    0.02599414 Italian_Umbria:PG05
    0.02633758 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
    0.02640373 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
    0.02663396 Italian_Apulia:GS32
    0.02714290 Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
    0.02721700 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02722742 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02729330 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
    0.02744356 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.02750559 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02751138 Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
    0.02764050 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
    0.02773377 Italian_Campania:ITS4
    0.02774538 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.02778738 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
    0.02779267 Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
    0.02779985 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02791726 Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
    0.02818646 Italian_Umbria:PG07
    0.02821885 Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
    0.02835150 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
    0.02845071 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02848879 Greek_Crete:778
    0.02855166 Italian_Lazio:PG30
    0.02858355 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
    0.02862506 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
    0.02874658 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02890658 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
    0.02896899 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
    0.02897627 Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
    0.02899432 Italian_Apulia:cera2
    0.02902010 Greek_Crete:756
    0.02906835 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02914857 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
    0.02917512 Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
    0.02920876 Greek_Crete:Crete8
    0.02922918 Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
    0.02928449 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02946591 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H
    Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?
    It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.01713239 Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
    0.01776527 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
    0.01874231 Italian_Apulia:cera8
    0.01888596 Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
    0.01932576 Italian_Apulia:cera9
    0.01963174 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.01964434 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.01974334 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.01999295 Italian_Lazio:NOR28
    0.02047439 Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02087089 Italian_Basilicata:PG19
    0.02149438 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
    0.02160112 Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
    0.02174661 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
    0.02200174 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
    0.02224918 Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
    0.02227362 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
    0.02245698 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
    0.02254037 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
    0.02254705 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.02273719 Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
    0.02281146 Italian_Basilicata:PG18
    0.02284391 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02304390 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
    0.02326530 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.02329825 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02337302 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
    0.02344557 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
    0.02353511 Italian_Basilicata:PG17
    0.02356284 Italian_Basilicata:PG25
    0.02382436 Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
    0.02392702 Italian_Basilicata:PG24
    0.02410880 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
    0.02429385 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02430576 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02441971 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
    0.02482137 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
    0.02484722 Italian_Basilicata:PG21
    0.02488643 Italian_Apulia:ITS7
    0.02498739 Italian_Umbria:PG03
    0.02507645 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
    0.02512626 Italian_Molise:PG27
    0.02522220 Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
    0.02550033 Italian_Molise:PG26
    0.02550403 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
    0.02550696 Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
    0.02556543 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02556652 Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
    0.02569943 Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
    0.02586840 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02588653 Italian_Apulia:Pu2
    0.02599414 Italian_Umbria:PG05
    0.02633758 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
    0.02640373 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
    0.02663396 Italian_Apulia:GS32
    0.02714290 Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
    0.02721700 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02722742 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02729330 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
    0.02744356 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.02750559 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02751138 Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
    0.02764050 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
    0.02773377 Italian_Campania:ITS4
    0.02774538 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.02778738 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
    0.02779267 Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
    0.02779985 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02791726 Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
    0.02818646 Italian_Umbria:PG07
    0.02821885 Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
    0.02835150 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
    0.02845071 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02848879 Greek_Crete:778
    0.02855166 Italian_Lazio:PG30
    0.02858355 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
    0.02862506 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
    0.02874658 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02890658 Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
    0.02896899 Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
    0.02897627 Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
    0.02899432 Italian_Apulia:cera2
    0.02902010 Greek_Crete:756
    0.02906835 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02914857 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
    0.02917512 Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
    0.02920876 Greek_Crete:Crete8
    0.02922918 Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
    0.02928449 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02946591 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H
    Thanks! I actually enjoy it. It's sort of like therapy for me and gets me away from my work!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?
    Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.
    Well that is not going to change my results. they are what they are. I am by no means a G25 expert but Duarte, whose opinion I value and trust, stated distances < 0.029 on G25 are genetically excellent distances indicating the same basic genetic admixture, etc.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?
    It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.
    I honestly think it is a very unclear part in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans. Which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is. The problem is that in this new study he also makes continuous references to his previous study from 2019. Raveane is the same one who wrote in the 2019 preprint that Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy, only to correct himself when the study was published.



    The study then literally says "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~ 16 to ~ 30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese". It is therefore cluster 9.


    Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.



    I honestly think it's an error in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans, which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is.

    Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.
    Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.

    They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.

    As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.

    Cheers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.

    They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.

    I remember reading several times in history books that when the Normans repopulated Sicily, in addition to settlers from north-western Italy, they also brought in settlers from Campania and other areas of southern Italy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.

    Cheers.

    The samples are the usual ones already seen in other studies. There are no new samples analysed for this study, as far as I understand. If there was an overlap it would have already been noted by previous papers, I think.

    The study literally says that "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~16 to ~30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese".




    It is therefore cluster 9 and the clusters in the study are made using mclust which is a software, an R package.

    So it is not so much that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals overlap with central Italians. But that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals join the same cluster (the 9) together with Lombard and Tuscan samples. If you see in the figure also a good percentage of Abruzzese, and a handful of Apulians and Calabrians.

    The software is not new, but I have never used it and have no opinion on its accuracy. What I do understand is that it is different from a PCA and other known tools.

    In general, I think it would have been more useful if he had used all the Italian populations with mclust, as he did in 2019. Maybe the clusters would have been different.


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    I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.
    Because they're sort of like the standard Peloponnesian probably absorbing some Slavic admixture that didn't make it to Deep Mani. The Deep Maniots essentially overlap with Cretans which I found astounding.

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    Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned).

    Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned).

    Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea
    One Deep Maniote seem to plot with Dodecanese Islanders. Very likely they became more northern shifted with contact with Maniotes of Taygetos, being plugged into Cretan cluster after the Ottoman conquest of Peloponnese.

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    Some people just can't seem to abide the fact that perhaps there are still people on the Greek mainland who are pretty much like the ancient Greeks, and they themselves are very different.

    So, they post all sorts of speculation about how this group or that group added a few genes here and there, and ignore the facts staring us in the face, which show a rather remarkable similarity to, for example, Mycenaeans. Or are we just going to ignore the analyses which show just that?

    Anyone tried which modern populations are closest to the Greek trader from Catalonia?

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    Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool .

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    Essentially, all populations in the Balkans are mixed, including Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool .
    When did I ever say anything of the kind?

    I'm talking about the fact that certain Peloponnese populations are pretty close to populations like the Mycenaeans, as are some island populations. How does that not make sense? Isolated populations get less new input. The island Greeks got less Slavic.

    It would also be interesting to compare modern Greek and Italian populations to the Greek Classical Era trader from Catalonia, or the one from Athens. I'd prefer a K12b comparison, especially considering that Eurogenes himself has said there are problems with the G25. Why people don't take him at his own word I'll never understand, but hey some of you still see it as the Holy Grail, and yet you don't want to accept the results. Don't understand it.

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    I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):

    Code:
    Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
    0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
    0.04809307    Italian_Campania
    0.04852104    Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04995370    Italian_Apulia
    0.04999673    Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085882    Sicilian_East
    0.05100425    Greek_Kos
    0.05223553    Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05364111    Italian_Jew
    0.05422879    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05499403    Italian_Molise
    0.05509976    Greek_Crete
    0.05543374    Greek_South_Tsakonia
    0.05550294    Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.05592299    Greek_Izmir
    0.05626354    Maltese
    0.05656327    Italian_Lazio
    0.05678270    Romaniote_Jew
    0.05864589    Sicilian_West
    0.05865506    Italian_Umbria
    0.05947154    Sephardic_Jew
    0.06132990    Italian_Marche
    0.06154745    Greek_North_Tsakonia
    0.06178645    Greek_Laconia
    0.06250757    Greek_Corinthia
    It seems that the reference Italian Jews are pretty close, also the Ashkenazi Jewish reference from Germany is almost as close as the South Tsakonian one? I wonder what are the historical circumstances that make Ashkenazi from Germany be so close? Do they have an ancient Greek connection also, you reckon?

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    I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...

    Oh, well ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):

    Code:
    Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
    0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
    0.04809307    Italian_Campania
    0.04852104    Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04995370    Italian_Apulia
    0.04999673    Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085882    Sicilian_East
    0.05100425    Greek_Kos
    0.05223553    Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05364111    Italian_Jew
    0.05422879    Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05499403    Italian_Molise
    0.05509976    Greek_Crete
    0.05543374    Greek_South_Tsakonia
    0.05550294    Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.05592299    Greek_Izmir
    0.05626354    Maltese
    0.05656327    Italian_Lazio
    0.05678270    Romaniote_Jew
    0.05864589    Sicilian_West
    0.05865506    Italian_Umbria
    0.05947154    Sephardic_Jew
    0.06132990    Italian_Marche
    0.06154745    Greek_North_Tsakonia
    0.06178645    Greek_Laconia
    0.06250757    Greek_Corinthia
    It seems that the reference Italian Jews are pretty close, also the Ashkenazi Jewish reference from Germany is almost as close as the South Tsakonian one? I wonder what are the historical circumstances that make Ashkenazi from Germany be so close? Do they have an ancient Greek connection also, you reckon?
    First of all, don't use averages, especially for Italians; too much variation.

    Second of all, still see Deep Mani and Greek Islanders at a "decent" distance from Mycenaeans. NEVER SAID THEY WERE AN UNCHANGED 'PURE" POPULATION. Maybe if it's all caps it will penetrate.

    Third of all, you didn't really need me to tell you that Ashkenazim are a combination of Anatolian Neolithic, Iran Neolithic, Southern European (perhaps Greeks) and some Slavic, did you? Plus, they're quite a bit further down the line, precisely because of that additional Slavic. Italian Jews are a much more "ancient" population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy12 View Post
    No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.
    I believe the IBD sharing with Slavs (Poles) within certain Peloponnesian Groups in the Stamatoyannopoulos paper was anywhere from 5-15%. I believe Elis and Messinia were the highest overall. The Steppe component (which can be as high as 34%) in mainland Greeks isn't necessarily Slavic it could also be Paleobalkanic. I honestly believe much of the modern Peloponnese (last 100 years) and particularly among the Sheepherders of the interior mountain regions travelled around and many (from my discussion with other Peloponnesians from Messinia and Arcadia) groups originated in the NW (Epirus or Rumeli) or NE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...

    Oh, well ...
    :
    Do you know how many logical fallacies you cram into your responses?

    I'll address just two here:

    1. Appeal to authority; specifically Byzantine "historians". Were you one of the members at anthrogenica or theapricity who insisted the Etruscans were recent (1st millennium B.C.) migrants from Asia Minor because Herodotus said so? How did that work out for you?

    2. Straw man argument; insisting I propose that some Peloponnese populations and the Island Greeks are identical to, or close to it, the Mycenaeans. INEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I'm sure there were some genetic influences on them with the passing of the years. Stop implying I said otherwise.

    My point was and is that a good bit of that ancestry may very well still exist in them.

    I don't know you, so I don't know why something so obvious upsets you so much. Are you one of those Southern European Nordicists who wants all Greeks to have a lot of Central and Eastern European ancestry, or are you a member of some other Balkan nationality who wants the Greeks to be some cobbled together ethnicity with no line of descent whatsoever to their illustrious ancestors?

    Both positions are absurd, imo.

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