Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Palermo Trapani]

I believe it’s an expanded collection that includes simulated K 36,, K 13, Dodecanese, and G 25. However, those samples are from 2019 (not sure when those you mentioned were added) so I’m sure there’s been a lot of additions since then. I believe there were several K 13 samples from the Peloponnese added.

Metadworf: Ok, thanks. I added the data in sequence, started with page 14, then 15. When I put in the data from page 16. Got an error. I think Crete_763 is missing some coordinates. When I deleted it and ran the source data from pp 14-16, got it to run. My top 25 from that run using the data from pp.14-16 (excluding Crete_763).

Distance to:	PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01776527	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
0.01974334	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
0.02149438	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
0.02174661	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
0.02245698	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
0.02337302	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
0.02556652	Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
0.02640373	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
0.02714290	Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
0.02721700	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
0.02750559	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
0.02848879	Greek_Crete:778
0.02858355	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
0.02896899	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
0.02902010	Greek_Crete:756
0.02906835	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
0.02914857	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
0.02920876	Greek_Crete:Crete8
0.02995339	Greek_Crete:Crete3
0.03005557	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17
0.03012488	Greek_Crete:790
0.03029585	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25
0.03044015	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
0.03044038	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
0.03044611	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-1

[Palermo Trapani]

Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

Distance to:	PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01713239	Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
0.01776527	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
0.01874231	Italian_Apulia:cera8
0.01888596	Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
0.01932576	Italian_Apulia:cera9
0.01963174	Italian_Basilicata:PG20
0.01964434	Italian_Calabria:ALP596
0.01974334	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
0.01999295	Italian_Lazio:NOR28
0.02047439	Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.02087089	Italian_Basilicata:PG19
0.02149438	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
0.02160112	Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
0.02174661	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
0.02200174	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
0.02224918	Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
0.02227362	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
0.02245698	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
0.02254037	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
0.02254705	Italian_Apulia:Pu3
0.02273719	Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
0.02281146	Italian_Basilicata:PG18
0.02284391	Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
0.02304390	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
0.02326530	Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
0.02329825	Italian_Apulia:Pu7
0.02337302	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
0.02344557	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
0.02353511	Italian_Basilicata:PG17
0.02356284	Italian_Basilicata:PG25
0.02382436	Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
0.02392702	Italian_Basilicata:PG24
0.02410880	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
0.02429385	Italian_Basilicata:PG16
0.02430576	Italian_Apulia:ALP379
0.02441971	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
0.02482137	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
0.02484722	Italian_Basilicata:PG21
0.02488643	Italian_Apulia:ITS7
0.02498739	Italian_Umbria:PG03
0.02507645	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
0.02512626	Italian_Molise:PG27
0.02522220	Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
0.02550033	Italian_Molise:PG26
0.02550403	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
0.02550696	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
0.02556543	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
0.02556652	Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
0.02569943	Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
0.02586840	Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
0.02588653	Italian_Apulia:Pu2
0.02599414	Italian_Umbria:PG05
0.02633758	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
0.02640373	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
0.02663396	Italian_Apulia:GS32
0.02714290	Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
0.02721700	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
0.02722742	Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
0.02729330	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
0.02744356	Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
0.02750559	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
0.02751138	Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
0.02764050	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
0.02773377	Italian_Campania:ITS4
0.02774538	Italian_Calabria:ALP582
0.02778738	Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
0.02779267	Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
0.02779985	Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
0.02791726	Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
0.02818646	Italian_Umbria:PG07
0.02821885	Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
0.02835150	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
0.02845071	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
0.02848879	Greek_Crete:778
0.02855166	Italian_Lazio:PG30
0.02858355	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
0.02862506	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
0.02874658	Italian_Apulia:GS47
0.02890658	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
0.02896899	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
0.02897627	Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
0.02899432	Italian_Apulia:cera2
0.02902010	Greek_Crete:756
0.02906835	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
0.02914857	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
0.02917512	Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
0.02920876	Greek_Crete:Crete8
0.02922918	Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
0.02928449	Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
0.02946591	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

[Niceguy12]

No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.

[Angela]

No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.

Island Greeks, Maniots, and the people of Tsakonia will be very interested to learn they're not really Greek.

[Angela]

Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

Distance to:	PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01713239	Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
0.01776527	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
0.01874231	Italian_Apulia:cera8
0.01888596	Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
0.01932576	Italian_Apulia:cera9
0.01963174	Italian_Basilicata:PG20
0.01964434	Italian_Calabria:ALP596
0.01974334	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
0.01999295	Italian_Lazio:NOR28
0.02047439	Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.02087089	Italian_Basilicata:PG19
0.02149438	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
0.02160112	Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
0.02174661	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
0.02200174	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
0.02224918	Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
0.02227362	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
0.02245698	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
0.02254037	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
0.02254705	Italian_Apulia:Pu3
0.02273719	Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
0.02281146	Italian_Basilicata:PG18
0.02284391	Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
0.02304390	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
0.02326530	Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
0.02329825	Italian_Apulia:Pu7
0.02337302	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
0.02344557	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
0.02353511	Italian_Basilicata:PG17
0.02356284	Italian_Basilicata:PG25
0.02382436	Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
0.02392702	Italian_Basilicata:PG24
0.02410880	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
0.02429385	Italian_Basilicata:PG16
0.02430576	Italian_Apulia:ALP379
0.02441971	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
0.02482137	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
0.02484722	Italian_Basilicata:PG21
0.02488643	Italian_Apulia:ITS7
0.02498739	Italian_Umbria:PG03
0.02507645	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
0.02512626	Italian_Molise:PG27
0.02522220	Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
0.02550033	Italian_Molise:PG26
0.02550403	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
0.02550696	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
0.02556543	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
0.02556652	Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
0.02569943	Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
0.02586840	Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
0.02588653	Italian_Apulia:Pu2
0.02599414	Italian_Umbria:PG05
0.02633758	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
0.02640373	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
0.02663396	Italian_Apulia:GS32
0.02714290	Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
0.02721700	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
0.02722742	Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
0.02729330	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
0.02744356	Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
0.02750559	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
0.02751138	Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
0.02764050	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
0.02773377	Italian_Campania:ITS4
0.02774538	Italian_Calabria:ALP582
0.02778738	Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
0.02779267	Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
0.02779985	Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
0.02791726	Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
0.02818646	Italian_Umbria:PG07
0.02821885	Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
0.02835150	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
0.02845071	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
0.02848879	Greek_Crete:778
0.02855166	Italian_Lazio:PG30
0.02858355	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
0.02862506	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
0.02874658	Italian_Apulia:GS47
0.02890658	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
0.02896899	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
0.02897627	Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
0.02899432	Italian_Apulia:cera2
0.02902010	Greek_Crete:756
0.02906835	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
0.02914857	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
0.02917512	Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
0.02920876	Greek_Crete:Crete8
0.02922918	Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
0.02928449	Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
0.02946591	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

[matadworf]

Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.

[matadworf]

Metadworf: Good work. All data from pp. 14-22, except p.17 which has some errors that I could not eye ball and find and Crete_763. My distances < 0.029. Thanks for your efforts.

Distance to:	PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01713239	Italian_Campania:NaN119AMR
0.01776527	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-7
0.01874231	Italian_Apulia:cera8
0.01888596	Italian_Campania:NaN43TC
0.01932576	Italian_Apulia:cera9
0.01963174	Italian_Basilicata:PG20
0.01964434	Italian_Calabria:ALP596
0.01974334	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
0.01999295	Italian_Lazio:NOR28
0.02047439	Greek_West_TaygetSicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
0.02087089	Italian_Basilicata:PG19
0.02149438	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-11
0.02160112	Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
0.02174661	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-23
0.02200174	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-1
0.02224918	Italian_Campania:NaN238DM
0.02227362	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
0.02245698	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-15
0.02254037	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp380
0.02254705	Italian_Apulia:Pu3
0.02273719	Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
0.02281146	Italian_Basilicata:PG18
0.02284391	Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
0.02304390	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp162
0.02326530	Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
0.02329825	Italian_Apulia:Pu7
0.02337302	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-10
0.02344557	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
0.02353511	Italian_Basilicata:PG17
0.02356284	Italian_Basilicata:PG25
0.02382436	Italian_Marche:MarACO100D
0.02392702	Italian_Basilicata:PG24
0.02410880	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian8H
0.02429385	Italian_Basilicata:PG16
0.02430576	Italian_Apulia:ALP379
0.02441971	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo15
0.02482137	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo16
0.02484722	Italian_Basilicata:PG21
0.02488643	Italian_Apulia:ITS7
0.02498739	Italian_Umbria:PG03
0.02507645	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
0.02512626	Italian_Molise:PG27
0.02522220	Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
0.02550033	Italian_Molise:PG26
0.02550403	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-7
0.02550696	Greek_South_Tsakonia:TSAK-8
0.02556543	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
0.02556652	Greek_Achaea:AHA-37
0.02569943	Italian_Campania:CMP_b004_2
0.02586840	Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
0.02588653	Italian_Apulia:Pu2
0.02599414	Italian_Umbria:PG05
0.02633758	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian7H
0.02640373	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-27
0.02663396	Italian_Apulia:GS32
0.02714290	Greek_Achaea:AHA-10
0.02721700	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
0.02722742	Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
0.02729330	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp140
0.02744356	Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
0.02750559	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
0.02751138	Italian_Marche:MarABP050D
0.02764050	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-19
0.02773377	Italian_Campania:ITS4
0.02774538	Italian_Calabria:ALP582
0.02778738	Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
0.02779267	Italian_Campania:NaN293SF
0.02779985	Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
0.02791726	Italian_Campania:CMP_b009_2
0.02818646	Italian_Umbria:PG07
0.02821885	Italian_Marche:MarACY030D
0.02835150	Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
0.02845071	Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
0.02848879	Greek_Crete:778
0.02855166	Italian_Lazio:PG30
0.02858355	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-7
0.02862506	Sicilian_West:WestSicilian4H
0.02874658	Italian_Apulia:GS47
0.02890658	Greek_North_Tsakonia:TSAK-20
0.02896899	Greek_Argolis:ARGO-6
0.02897627	Italian_Marche:MarABQ080D
0.02899432	Italian_Apulia:cera2
0.02902010	Greek_Crete:756
0.02906835	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
0.02914857	Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-22
0.02917512	Italian_Marche:MarABY030D
0.02920876	Greek_Crete:Crete8
0.02922918	Greek_West_Taygetos:MMA-23
0.02928449	Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
0.02946591	Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H

Thanks! I actually enjoy it. It's sort of like therapy for me and gets me away from my work!

[Palermo Trapani]

Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.

[Palermo Trapani]

It’s a shame there are so few Sicilian samples. That could be part of the reason.

Well that is not going to change my results. they are what they are. I am by no means a G25 expert but Duarte, whose opinion I value and trust, stated distances < 0.029 on G25 are genetically excellent distances indicating the same basic genetic admixture, etc.

[Pax Augusta]

Do you have any idea why as a Sicilian you usually come out closer to mainland Italians?

It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.

Angela: I actually do not know 100%. I have my own theories. I can PM you and maybe you can help me out with that. My family name in Italian is definitely from Campania, that much I have found out on my own via research. Of course it could be the areas of Sicily where all my Great Grand parents were from were areas that had lots of mainlanders that moved into those areas during the Norman era, from places like Emilia, Liguria, etc and maybe I harbor some additional admixture from there. Recently, a paper (I am at work and having Lunch!) so I don't have it off the top of my head found that about 16 to 30% of Sicilians overlap with Central Italians I think it is. I think it was the one that showed West Sicily and Peloponnesians also show close affinity and East Sicily and Calabria and Apulia with Greeks from another area.

I honestly think it is a very unclear part in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans. Which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is. The problem is that in this new study he also makes continuous references to his previous study from 2019. Raveane is the same one who wrote in the 2019 preprint that Emilia-Romagna is in central Italy, only to correct himself when the study was published.



The study then literally says "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~ 16 to ~ 30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese". It is therefore cluster 9.


Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.

[Palermo Trapani]

It is not uncommon to see Sicilians ending up with Abruzzi. Sicily was repopulated from the Normans onwards with people from northern Italy and even with people from mainland southern Italy. Who knows, maybe it had more impact than we think. Then other Sicilians ended up with the Calabrians instead. Hard to tell what the average is.



I honestly think it's an error in that study. It didn't use samples from all regions. Then you can't even tell which central Italians he is referring to, because in the paper he writes that northern Italy is represented by Lombards and Tuscans, which for goodness sake is also debatable, but that's what it is.

Sicilians are very varied, but their range is between Abruzzo and Calabria. I have never seen a Sicilian go further north than the people from Abruzzi.

Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.

They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.

As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.

Cheers.

[Pax Augusta]

Pax: Thanks for the input. I agree, the more I read, it is not uncommon to see Sicilians close with Abruzzi. Dean Martin, the great American-Italian crooner/actor was from Abruzzo (his family) as was the great Boxer Rocky Marciano's family was from Abruzzo/Campania.

They could both be Great Uncles of Mine. It also seems, from my own research over the years and time spent here, that Sicily and Campania (at least modern Campania) overlap. My thinking, and this is just conjecture is that during the Norman era and the later Kingdom of Sicily/Naples/Two Sicily's, etc. Palermo and Naples were the 2 major cultural, economic and political hubs and thus lots of travel between Naples/Campania and Palermo/Sicily.

I remember reading several times in history books that when the Normans repopulated Sicily, in addition to settlers from north-western Italy, they also brought in settlers from Campania and other areas of southern Italy.

As for that paper, and the papers by the Italian academicians, you are much more in tune with where the samples were obtained and whether they are representative of the regions they are from or perhaps from a specific village from a particular region. So the results from that paper may not be generalizable and that 16-30% of Sicilian samples may actually overlap up to Abruzzo and not as far North as the paper suggest. For the record, I don't overlap as far North as Emilia or Liguria. Abruzzo, yes, and sometimes Marche and Molise on an individual sample basis.

Cheers.

The samples are the usual ones already seen in other studies. There are no new samples analysed for this study, as far as I understand. If there was an overlap it would have already been noted by previous papers, I think.

The study literally says that "a substantial proportion of Sicilians (between ~16 to ~30%), are part of a cluster which includes Northern and Central Italian areas (cl. 9), and is absent in Greece and Peloponnese".




It is therefore cluster 9 and the clusters in the study are made using mclust which is a software, an R package.

So it is not so much that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals overlap with central Italians. But that 16-30% of Sicilian individuals join the same cluster (the 9) together with Lombard and Tuscan samples. If you see in the figure also a good percentage of Abruzzese, and a handful of Apulians and Calabrians.

The software is not new, but I have never used it and have no opinion on its accuracy. What I do understand is that it is different from a PCA and other known tools.

In general, I think it would have been more useful if he had used all the Italian populations with mclust, as he did in 2019. Maybe the clusters would have been different.

[ihype02]

I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.

[matadworf]

I was suprised how different Maniotes from Mount Taygetos compared to Deep Maniotes are.

Because they're sort of like the standard Peloponnesian probably absorbing some Slavic admixture that didn't make it to Deep Mani. The Deep Maniots essentially overlap with Cretans which I found astounding.

[eupator]

Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned).

Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea

[ihype02]

Historically, the region has Italian, Slavic (Melingoi) and Arvanite/Albanian Stradioti input, among others like Crete (that was mentioned).

Their autosomal admixture is probably an amalgamation of the 13th-14th century reality of the region that was preserved during the Ottoman period and survived into modern day due to endogamy and also due to the fact that Morea was largely, if not entirely, ignored by the Ottomans as a poor irrelevant area (for taxation of wealth) and was left alone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Despotate_of_the_Morea

One Deep Maniote seem to plot with Dodecanese Islanders. Very likely they became more northern shifted with contact with Maniotes of Taygetos, being plugged into Cretan cluster after the Ottoman conquest of Peloponnese.

[Angela]

Some people just can't seem to abide the fact that perhaps there are still people on the Greek mainland who are pretty much like the ancient Greeks, and they themselves are very different.

So, they post all sorts of speculation about how this group or that group added a few genes here and there, and ignore the facts staring us in the face, which show a rather remarkable similarity to, for example, Mycenaeans. Or are we just going to ignore the analyses which show just that?

Anyone tried which modern populations are closest to the Greek trader from Catalonia?

[1337]

Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool .

[1337]

Essentially, all populations in the Balkans are mixed, including Albanian.

[Angela]

Yeah, there are some similarities with Ancient Greeks . But they don't cluster 100% with all mainland Greeks but there are some modern Greeks who are like that unless I am wrong . I am not an expert nor studied this in detail but I also remember one of the samples was like a Kosovo Albanian or more north. Let's also not forget Bulgarian/Slavic admixture in Greek Macedonia and various other populations that have settled Greece and the population exchange with Turkey. It is silly to argue for some kind of pure genetic gene pool .

When did I ever say anything of the kind?

I'm talking about the fact that certain Peloponnese populations are pretty close to populations like the Mycenaeans, as are some island populations. How does that not make sense? Isolated populations get less new input. The island Greeks got less Slavic.

It would also be interesting to compare modern Greek and Italian populations to the Greek Classical Era trader from Catalonia, or the one from Athens. I'd prefer a K12b comparison, especially considering that Eurogenes himself has said there are problems with the G25. Why people don't take him at his own word I'll never understand, but hey some of you still see it as the Holy Grail, and yet you don't want to accept the results. Don't understand it.

[eupator]

I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):

Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
0.04809307    Italian_Campania
0.04852104    Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04995370    Italian_Apulia
0.04999673    Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882    Sicilian_East
0.05100425    Greek_Kos
0.05223553    Greek_Dodecanese
0.05364111    Italian_Jew
0.05422879    Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403    Italian_Molise
0.05509976    Greek_Crete
0.05543374    Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05550294    Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05592299    Greek_Izmir
0.05626354    Maltese
0.05656327    Italian_Lazio
0.05678270    Romaniote_Jew
0.05864589    Sicilian_West
0.05865506    Italian_Umbria
0.05947154    Sephardic_Jew
0.06132990    Italian_Marche
0.06154745    Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06178645    Greek_Laconia
0.06250757    Greek_Corinthia

It seems that the reference Italian Jews are pretty close, also the Ashkenazi Jewish reference from Germany is almost as close as the South Tsakonian one? I wonder what are the historical circumstances that make Ashkenazi from Germany be so close? Do they have an ancient Greek connection also, you reckon?

[eupator]

I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...

Oh, well ...

[Angela]

I ran the new modern lists of everyone's favorite PCA and this is what comes up with it now (*using the averages):

Distance to:    GRC_Mycenaean
0.04621737    Italian_Calabria
0.04809307    Italian_Campania
0.04852104    Greek_Deep_Mani
0.04995370    Italian_Apulia
0.04999673    Italian_Basilicata
0.05085882    Sicilian_East
0.05100425    Greek_Kos
0.05223553    Greek_Dodecanese
0.05364111    Italian_Jew
0.05422879    Italian_Abruzzo
0.05499403    Italian_Molise
0.05509976    Greek_Crete
0.05543374    Greek_South_Tsakonia
0.05550294    Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05592299    Greek_Izmir
0.05626354    Maltese
0.05656327    Italian_Lazio
0.05678270    Romaniote_Jew
0.05864589    Sicilian_West
0.05865506    Italian_Umbria
0.05947154    Sephardic_Jew
0.06132990    Italian_Marche
0.06154745    Greek_North_Tsakonia
0.06178645    Greek_Laconia
0.06250757    Greek_Corinthia

It seems that the reference Italian Jews are pretty close, also the Ashkenazi Jewish reference from Germany is almost as close as the South Tsakonian one? I wonder what are the historical circumstances that make Ashkenazi from Germany be so close? Do they have an ancient Greek connection also, you reckon?

First of all, don't use averages, especially for Italians; too much variation.

Second of all, still see Deep Mani and Greek Islanders at a "decent" distance from Mycenaeans. NEVER SAID THEY WERE AN UNCHANGED 'PURE" POPULATION. Maybe if it's all caps it will penetrate.

Third of all, you didn't really need me to tell you that Ashkenazim are a combination of Anatolian Neolithic, Iran Neolithic, Southern European (perhaps Greeks) and some Slavic, did you? Plus, they're quite a bit further down the line, precisely because of that additional Slavic. Italian Jews are a much more "ancient" population.

[matadworf]

No surprises. Modern Greeks are further north due to Slavic influence. The southern Italians (and Sardinians) are the most 'Mediterranean' people in Europe in terms of autosomal DNA, as are the ancient Greeks and Minoans.

I believe the IBD sharing with Slavs (Poles) within certain Peloponnesian Groups in the Stamatoyannopoulos paper was anywhere from 5-15%. I believe Elis and Messinia were the highest overall. The Steppe component (which can be as high as 34%) in mainland Greeks isn't necessarily Slavic it could also be Paleobalkanic. I honestly believe much of the modern Peloponnese (last 100 years) and particularly among the Sheepherders of the interior mountain regions travelled around and many (from my discussion with other Peloponnesians from Messinia and Arcadia) groups originated in the NW (Epirus or Rumeli) or NE.

[Angela]

I guess the Byzantine historiographers were either lying or were clueless about their contemporary medieval Morea, it seems that it was a big waste of time for those of us who studied the part, it only took the "Moriopoulos and co." collection and eurogenes PCA to do the trick of disproving them ...

Oh, well ...

:
Do you know how many logical fallacies you cram into your responses?

I'll address just two here:

1. Appeal to authority; specifically Byzantine "historians". Were you one of the members at anthrogenica or theapricity who insisted the Etruscans were recent (1st millennium B.C.) migrants from Asia Minor because Herodotus said so? How did that work out for you?

2. Straw man argument; insisting I propose that some Peloponnese populations and the Island Greeks are identical to, or close to it, the Mycenaeans. INEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I'm sure there were some genetic influences on them with the passing of the years. Stop implying I said otherwise.

My point was and is that a good bit of that ancestry may very well still exist in them.

I don't know you, so I don't know why something so obvious upsets you so much. Are you one of those Southern European Nordicists who wants all Greeks to have a lot of Central and Eastern European ancestry, or are you a member of some other Balkan nationality who wants the Greeks to be some cobbled together ethnicity with no line of descent whatsoever to their illustrious ancestors?

Both positions are absurd, imo.