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Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I believe the IBD sharing with Slavs (Poles) within certain Peloponnesian Groups in the Stamatoyannopoulos paper was anywhere from 5-15%. I believe Elis and Messinia were the highest overall. The Steppe component (which can be as high as 34%) in mainland Greeks isn't necessarily Slavic it could also be Paleobalkanic. I honestly believe much of the modern Peloponnese (last 100 years) and particularly among the Sheepherders of the interior mountain regions travelled around and many (from my discussion with other Peloponnesians from Messinia and Arcadia) groups originated in the NW (Epirus or Rumeli) or NE.
    Why on earth would you believe anecdotal stories from acquaintances over genetic analysis in academic papers? Sorry, Matadworf, but it makes no sense to me.

    Plus, there's no way the people of Deep Mani or Tsakonia etc. came from Epirus or the N.E. They're way too different.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Third of all, you didn't really need me to tell you that Ashkenazim are a combination of Anatolian Neolithic, Iran Neolithic, Southern European (perhaps Greeks) and some Slavic, did you? Plus, they're quite a bit further down the line, precisely because of that additional Slavic. Italian Jews are a much more "ancient" population.

    I agree with you, if the positionals on the PCA, like you say with the Ashkenazi, is due to circumstantial breakdown of their relative parts, then why single them out of the total? This same rule could apply to everyone.

    Why discount the Byzantine historiography?

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    Deep Maniotes plot with Cretans. And Cretans have 10% to 15 Slavic admixture.

    The same will turn true for Deep Maniotes which I believe this admixture came with Meligoi who were assimilated during the Ottoman period in Mani.

    Maniotes from Taygetos are the most Slavic people in Peloponnese and Maniotes from Deep Mani are the least just as Emperor Constantine said centuries ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    :
    Do you know how many logical fallacies you cram into your responses?

    I'll address just two here:

    1. Appeal to authority; specifically Byzantine "historians". Were you one of the members at anthrogenica or theapricity who insisted the Etruscans were recent (1st millennium B.C.) migrants from Asia Minor because Herodotus said so? How did that work out for you?

    2. Straw man argument; insisting I propose that some Peloponnese populations and the Island Greeks are identical to, or close to it, the Mycenaeans. INEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I'm sure there were some genetic influences on them with the passing of the years. Stop implying I said otherwise.

    My point was and is that a good bit of that ancestry may very well still exist in them.

    I don't know you, so I don't know why something so obvious upsets you so much. Are you one of those Southern European Nordicists who wants all Greeks to have a lot of Central and Eastern European ancestry, or are you a member of some other Balkan nationality who wants the Greeks to be some cobbled together ethnicity with no line of descent whatsoever to their illustrious ancestors?

    Both positions are absurd, imo.

    I'll reply to the best of my ability,

    1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.

    2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).

    3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others?

    4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?

    I think you have misunderstood me, with all due respect, my background is anthropology and ethnography and so I am very keen on these middle/late Medieval details some people want to leave out.

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    And finally, on a personal note and w/o wanting to abuse having the floor, I'd like to point out my annoyance that every time someone (like me) mentions a historical/ethnographic detail from the Ottoman and Byzantine era, it's considered as shit posting, pardon my expression.

    All countries and nations celebrate their medieval past, their history and their culture, their traditions, it's only modern Greeks that have to forget about their own people's recent medieval roots and constantly try to prove that they are the descendants of Leonidas and Pericles, and so on, like the rest of our history as Grecoromans and Ottomans has to be discarded, thrown in the trash and not mentioned at all, like it's taboo.

    I am very tired of this and find it highly offensive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why on earth would you believe anecdotal stories from acquaintances over genetic analysis in academic papers? Sorry, Matadworf, but it makes no sense to me.

    Plus, there's no way the people of Deep Mani or Tsakonia etc. came from Epirus or the N.E. They're way too different.
    I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years
    wowow.

    Maniates are considered genetical closer to Cretans, expelled Cretans or Pirates etc,
    Mane (Magne) is like the tortuga island of pirates, or the emperror king that become mercenairies. always semi indepented.
    Tsakones is considered a special population, considered as exo-Lakonians, closer to Ancient Lakedemonians and Arcadians
    At kalamata gulf there was an after Kastrioti habitation from Epirus, the Kastrioti followers like Krokodeilos Kladas
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I agree with you, if the positionals on the PCA, like you say with the Ashkenazi, is due to circumstantial breakdown of their relative parts, then why single them out of the total? This same rule could apply to everyone.

    Why discount the Byzantine historiography?
    Why do you continue to post straw man arguments.

    I never said I was discounting Byzantine historiography, or at least not all of it. However, one has to remember that historians in the past often repeated tales heard from others, rarely did the kind of studies which modern methods have given us the ability to do today. Anyone who has ever studied the development of historical writing would know that. Look at the mistakes in Herodotus, for goodness sakes, or in the Latin "historians", or in many of the so called histories of the Middle Ages.

    I'm sure, however, that the people of Deep Mani in the Peloponnese, along with others to greater degrees, have indeed accrued some genes from other admixing populations. Do I have to have it engraved on my forehead???

    HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF???

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I'll reply to the best of my ability,

    1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.

    2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).

    3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others?

    4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?

    I think you have misunderstood me, with all due respect, my background is anthropology and ethnography and so I am very keen on these middle/late Medieval details some people want to leave out.
    All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions.

    If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix?

    To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.

    What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks.

    It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions.

    If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix?

    To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.

    What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks.

    It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.
    Yes I agree the standard modern mainland Greek is pretty much a mix of Classical era Greeks (or something of the sort) with additional Slavic admixture. I will say that the entire Greek mainland is pretty uniform genetically. This was pointed out by someone on this site several years back (LeBrok I believe) who had a collection of mainland Greek samples. I remember asking him about that and he totally agreed. So if you look at Central (Greek) Macedonia, Thessaly, Rumeli and the Peloponnese there's an absolute (and pretty tight) genetic continuum. The outliers (if you want to call them that) are obviously the deep Maniots and Tsakonians who are pretty close (in comparative terms) to Cretans who in turn link up to other Aegean Islanders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I'll reply to the best of my ability,

    1) When I make historical points and references is because I come from such a background, it boggles my mind how some can jump over nearly 1800+ years of Byzantine/Ottoman recorded history and go straight to the Bronze/Iron Age when they want to explain population backgrounds. Ethnographically, with the exception of Tsakonia, Peloponnesians show no unique ethnographic/linguistic evolution of 'ancient times' compared to their other peers.

    2) The PCAs obviously show a distorted sense of reality, that's why formal stats are usually preferred in academic papers. If you head to my other thread, you can see that FST distances are better for Albanians than for Greeks in relation to the Mycenean samples (Reich dataset that Lazaridis et al (2017) used).

    3) I am not a nordicist or any other -icist. I treasure my nation's ancient/Byzantine/Ottoman past, its history and ethnography equally and I only post historical (or other) references that I can back with sources or that are easy to cross reference. I think that a jump of 2k+ years of historical and ethnographic evolution is not very academic to say the least. Why shouldn't Moreans/Peloponnesians treasure their Albanian, Slavic, Italian, Saracen and Greek roots equally? Aren't they an amalgamation of all these things, just like the historians tell us? Is one past more important and more 'pure' than the others?

    4) For disclosure purposes, I am half Arvanite from Thrace from my dad, and half Pontic Anatolian from my mom. Shall I discount my Balkan and South Caucasian genetics, culture and ancestral tradition, just so I can pretend that I am Cretan, like the PCAs say, and henceforth also close to ancient Greeks by proxy? Will I score more internet points if I do that?

    I think you have misunderstood me, with all due respect, my background is anthropology and ethnography and so I am very keen on these middle/late Medieval details some people want to leave out.
    Hey these autosmal comparisons are in "good fun" and I don't believe anyone is saying that if they cluster with an ancient population then they're a direct descendant. I'm super close to the Logkas 2 sample as are Tuscans and other Central Italians so are we genetically linked? Hardly. We just share similar genetic components but that's what makes it interesting. it allows you (in good fun) to compare your genetic makeup to the ancients. As far as the Medieval history of Greece I find it super fascinating particularly when discussing the various Frankish and Venetian principalities, the Slavic and Albanian settlements, and the strongholds of the Byzantine East. It's absolutely an underappreciated segment of Greek history but for the sake of this thread I was simply trying to present (with the various samples available) how similar Greeks and Italians are when comparing these populations to the Ancients.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Yes I agree the standard modern mainland Greek is pretty much a mix of Classical era Greeks (or something of the sort) with additional Slavic admixture. I will say that the entire Greek mainland is pretty uniform genetically. This was pointed out by someone on this site several years back (LeBrok I believe) who had a collection of mainland Greek samples. I remember asking him about that and he totally agreed. So if you look at Central (Greek) Macedonia, Thessaly, Rumeli and the Peloponnese there's an absolute (and pretty tight) genetic continuum. The outliers (if you want to call them that) are obviously the deep Maniots and Tsakonians who are pretty close (in comparative terms) to Cretans who in turn link up to other Aegean Islanders.
    Again you do this again.

    DO NOT MIX MANIATES WITH TSAKONES.

    they are tottaly different population.
    for seconf time plz Understand it,
    Maniates population has nothing to do with Tsakones population,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Again you do this again.

    DO NOT MIX MANIATES WITH TSAKONES.

    they are tottaly different population.
    for seconf time Understand it,
    Maniates population has nothing to do with Tsakones population,
    I know the difference. I’ve been to Greece 5 times. All of my family is from the Morea. My maternal grandmother was from a village called Paliochori that borders on Tsakonian villages. I’ve been to Kosmas and Leonidion. My paternal side is from Messinia and I’ve been to exo Mani. I dated a full blooded Maniatisa so yes I know the difference 😄

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I know the difference. I’ve been to Greece 5 times. All of my family is from the Morea. My maternal grandmother was from a village called Paliochori that borders on Tsakonian villages. I’ve been to Kosmas and Leonidion. My paternal side is from Messinia and I’ve been to exo Mani. I dated a full blooded Maniatisa so yes I know the difference ������
    Tsakones speak an ancient Dorian dialect as shelf improved through ages call exo-Lakonian
    but their ethnogenesis as a sub-group strat at 8 century AD probably cause they served as light infantry,

    Maniates are around 650 years after as a sub-group ethnogenesis
    and has to do with Italian priviledges, mercenairies, and mainly piracy.

    If you refer to Francocratia, then there is a castle there, the castle of Lello Lellou
    even for this the argonese chronicles and local chronicles, and the 4rth crusade chronicles can not give a correct answer,

    Hugues de Charpigny or de Lille
    Guy de Nivelet or de Neuville or de Nevilles etc etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    snip

    I think our disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of goalposts.

    I don't have an agenda to disprove anything, but I do consider myself an avid supporter of the restoration of Byzantine/Ottoman Greek medieval identity and culture in my own country.

    I also believe that the genetics and ethnography of the successors of the Byzantine/Ottoman empires (both modern Greeks and Turks) are more complex than simple models of "ancient Greeks + extra Slavic/Albanian" or "Anatolian + extra Turkic", etc. Based on the historiographers of their times there were numerous populations also thrown in the mix of the Byzantine ethnos apart from Slavs and Albanians, like Armenians, Isaurians, Pecheneges, Seljuks/Iranians, and others, that also contributed their bit into the amalgamation of what consisted the Byzantine/Ottoman Greek ethnos; from my perspective those contributions and sacrifices of whom essentially are some of our ancestors need to also be recognized and not buried.

    As for myself, I am not an Albanian spy, half or full, set out to get the poor Greeks; I think it's funny that Arvanites are automatically considered as Albanians in such an argument, most of my generation (late Xers/early Millenials) only very recently started to rediscover their roots and particularities within the context of the modern Greek ethnos, up until very recently Arvanite or Vlach was a connotation used for a 'villager/rural farmer' person, not necessarily tied to an ethnic context. A lot of people with Arvanite roots or such last names can't speak Arvanitic and sometimes don't even know if any of their ancestors spoke such a language, the linguistic Hellenisation was a process that began in the 11th-12th century in some cases.

    That's all for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I think our disagreement is based on a misunderstanding of goalposts.

    I don't have an agenda to disprove anything, but I do consider myself an avid supporter of the restoration of Byzantine/Ottoman Greek medieval identity and culture in my own country.

    I also believe that the genetics and ethnography of the successors of the Byzantine/Ottoman empires (both modern Greeks and Turks) are more complex than simple models of "ancient Greeks + extra Slavic/Albanian" or "Anatolian + extra Turkic", etc. Based on the historiographers of their times there were numerous populations also thrown in the mix of the Byzantine ethnos apart from Slavs and Albanians, like Armenians, Isaurians, Pecheneges, Seljuks/Iranians, and others, that also contributed their bit into the amalgamation of what consisted the Byzantine/Ottoman Greek ethnos; from my perspective those contributions and sacrifices of whom essentially are some of our ancestors need to also be recognized and not buried.

    As for myself, I am not an Albanian spy, half or full, set out to get the poor Greeks; I think it's funny that Arvanites are automatically considered as Albanians in such an argument, most of my generation (late Xers/early Millenials) only very recently started to rediscover their roots and particularities within the context of the modern Greek ethnos, up until very recently Arvanite or Vlach was a connotation used for a 'villager/rural farmer' person, not necessarily tied to an ethnic context. A lot of people with Arvanite roots or such last names can't speak Arvanitic and sometimes don't even know if any of their ancestors spoke such a language, the linguistic Hellenisation was a process that began in the 11th-12th century in some cases.

    That's all for now.

    I really can not understand you,
    your writting seems you hide something, and want to provide something else,

    Let me at least explain you the brown Iranian Neolithic is the primary genetical stuff of continental Greeks in antique

    Altaic component is a mark of possible Turkic-Turkish origin,
    no matter 400 years unde Ottoman Turks, Greece has the lowest almost 0 Altaic component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I really can not understand you,
    your writting seems you hide something, and want to provide something else,

    Let me at least explain you the brown Iranian Neolithic is the primary genetical stuff of continental Greeks in antique

    Altaic component is a mark of possible Turkic-Turkish origin,
    no matter 400 years unde Ottoman Turks, Greece has the lowest almost 0 Altaic component.

    I am not sure what the Altaic component has to do with anything we're talking about here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When did I ever say anything of the kind?

    I'm talking about the fact that certain Peloponnese populations are pretty close to populations like the Mycenaeans, as are some island populations. How does that not make sense? Isolated populations get less new input. The island Greeks got less Slavic.

    It would also be interesting to compare modern Greek and Italian populations to the Greek Classical Era trader from Catalonia, or the one from Athens. I'd prefer a K12b comparison, especially considering that Eurogenes himself has said there are problems with the G25. Why people don't take him at his own word I'll never understand, but hey some of you still see it as the Holy Grail, and yet you don't want to accept the results. Don't understand it.
    I wasn't addressing you but the thread in general. I wasn't even talking about the Islands and I am aware some people from Peloponnese plot very southern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Some people just can't seem to abide the fact that perhaps there are still people on the Greek mainland who are pretty much like the ancient Greeks, and they themselves are very different.

    So, they post all sorts of speculation about how this group or that group added a few genes here and there, and ignore the facts staring us in the face, which show a rather remarkable similarity to, for example, Mycenaeans. Or are we just going to ignore the analyses which show just that?

    Anyone tried which modern populations are closest to the Greek trader from Catalonia?
    If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.

    The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All you have proved to me is that I guessed right, and you're one of the Albanians, or part Albanians, who want to deny any continuity in Greece to any meaningful degree. You are operating, imo, not from an objective analysis of "all" the data, but from your pre-conceived conclusions.

    If I've got it wrong I apologize, but it seems to me as if you're just someone else trying to prove there are no Greeks, just some combination of Albanians, Slavs, Italians, Saracens, and what was it, Cretan pirates. Anyone else you'd like to throw into the mix?

    To prove such a claim you'd have to provide verifiable, precise numbers of people, uniparental data etc., or ancient dna for each time period showing the change in the dna over time. You can't do it, although perhaps at some point in the future we'll have that kind of data.

    What can be done, and has been done in academic papers, is to show that one can take the Greeks of their Golden Eras, add Slavic admixture, and you get modern Greeks. Those populations most isolated from that Slavic admixture are the closest to the ancient Greeks.

    It makes perfect sense. If we've learned anything at all from the population genetics papers of the last few years it should be that the autosomal "signature" of a people is shaped by folk migrations, NOT a few Saracens, or pirates or Italians or soldiers here and there. The SLAVS were a folk migration; that's why they were able to change the genetics. No one denies it. The operative word, however, is CHANGE, not REPLACE, much as it may pain you to accept it.
    Lol you're quickly to jump to assumptions and conclusions Relax, we already know you are anti-Albanian

    I have seen him also on other forums and he is definitely not Albanian. There was another Greek guy arguing the same on Apecity , and I remember he showed that many of these samples are closer to other populations than to Greeks and plotting can also be misleading for many reasons.

    Tell me, what happened to all these people ?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popula...ece_and_Turkey

    The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey (Greek: Ἡ Ἀνταλλαγή, romanized: I Antallagí, Ottoman Turkish: مبادله, romanized: Mübâdele, Turkish: Mübadele) stemmed from the "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on 30 January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved at least 1.6 million people (1,221,489 Greek Orthodox from Asia Minor, Eastern Thrace, the Pontic Alps and the Caucasus, and 355,000–400,000 Muslims from Greece),[3] most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    Lol you're quickly to jump to assumptions and conclusions Relax, we already know you are anti-Albanian

    I have seen him also on other forums and he is definitely not Albanian. There was another Greek guy arguing the same on Apecity , and I remember he showed that many of these samples are closer to other populations than to Greeks and plotting can also be misleading for many reasons.

    Tell me, what happened to all these people ?
    Yes, I'm so anti-Albanian that for years I pointed out the absurdity of the claims made here that the Albanians were the descendants of Turks.

    You guys have very short memories, and/or no capacity for gratitude.

    As for all those people, at least in the academic study on the Peloponnese, great care was taken to get samples from people who were quite elderly, specifically so that the "all four grandparents from the same area" standard which was also applied would ensure that no people with long residence in the Peloponnese would have any of that ancestry.

    I've only pointed that out on this thread four or five times already.

    Do go back to the paper and look it up for yourself.

  22. #72
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337 View Post
    I wasn't addressing you but the thread in general. I wasn't even talking about the Islands and I am aware some people from Peloponnese plot very southern.
    Well, as no mainland Greeks plot any further north than the Tuscans, and in fact usually southeast of them, which is the same for the Albanians, all of you are "Southern", in that sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.

    The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!

    how sure you are?
    about
    1 this,
    2 the ancient myceneans,
    3 Maniates are local to Lacedaimonia when Myceneans rull
    4 Myceneans where main dwellers and not main rulers.

    etc etc,

    and who is emporiotes

    are you another Albanian hiding behind Italian Flag?

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    how sure you are?
    about
    1 this,
    2 the ancient myceneans,
    3 Maniates are local to Lacedaimonia when Myceneans rull
    4 Myceneans where main dwellers and not main rulers.

    etc etc,

    and who is emporiotes

    are you another Albanian hiding behind Italian Flag?
    I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.

    "GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.

    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.

    Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.04621737 Italian_Calabria
    0.04809307 Italian_Campania
    0.04852104 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04995370 Italian_Apulia
    0.04999673 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085882 Sicilian_East
    0.05100425 Greek_Kos
    0.05223553 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05364111 Italian_Jew
    0.05422879 Italian_Abruzzo

    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.04715049 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04766329 Italian_Apulia
    0.04778804 Italian_Campania
    0.04857601 Italian_Calabria
    0.04981762 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04994000 Sicilian_East
    0.05206948 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05321564 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05330776 Greek_Kos
    0.05402369 Italian_Molise

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    If the Greeks referred to are Mycenaean-like then no, they are not even remotely "similar" to any population living today in either Greece or Italy.

    The Mycenaean and Emporiote average have a distance of 4.85 and 4.72 from Greek_Deep_Mani which is the closest, it is practically the same distance that there is on average between an Irishman and a Czech!
    Wow I forgot to add the NE Empuries sample. That population consisted of settlers from the Anatolian Coast who were originally from Central Greece and apparently Doric speakers. I'm guessing they had higher Steppe than the Myceneans.

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