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Thread: Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

  1. #76
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    No actually Myceneans have higher Steppe:

    Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    Distance: 3.4885% / 0.03488502 | R4P
    57.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
    16.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
    8.4 GEO_CHG


    Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    Distance: 1.1605% / 0.01160544
    49.8 TUR_Barcin_N
    19.8 TUR_Barcin_C
    18.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
    11.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus

    I'm guessing these Phoceans absorbed Anatolian admixture during those 200 years of settlement on the Anatolian coast before emigrating to Iberia. It would be interesting to see what their admixture was like prior to their settlement in those coastal regions of Anatolia.
    Target: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    Distance: 3.4885% / 0.03488502 | R4P
    57.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    17.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
    16.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
    8.4 GEO_CHG

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.

    "GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.

    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.

    Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.04621737 Italian_Calabria
    0.04809307 Italian_Campania
    0.04852104 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04995370 Italian_Apulia
    0.04999673 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085882 Sicilian_East
    0.05100425 Greek_Kos
    0.05223553 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05364111 Italian_Jew
    0.05422879 Italian_Abruzzo

    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.04715049 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04766329 Italian_Apulia
    0.04778804 Italian_Campania
    0.04857601 Italian_Calabria
    0.04981762 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04994000 Sicilian_East
    0.05206948 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05321564 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05330776 Greek_Kos
    0.05402369 Italian_Molise
    Er Monnezza: What are you using to calculate those distances? Dodecad12b or G25? From what I have always understood, the orginal Dodecade12B calculator suggested 0.05 as the "critical value/cutoff" to determine if a population is genetically the same/similar, etc. For G25 per Duarte who is a very reputable poster here and one whose posts I read and value, the suggested value is 0.029. I think for G25, 0.05 is considered "ok" as I distance so maybe a related population, etc.

    Cheers, PT

  3. #78
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Er Monnezza: What are you using to calculate those distances? Dodecad12b or G25? From what I have always understood, the orginal Dodecade12B calculator suggested 0.05 as the "critical value/cutoff" to determine if a population is genetically the same/similar, etc. For G25 per Duarte who is a very reputable poster here and one whose posts I read and value, the suggested value is 0.029. I think for G25, 0.05 is considered "ok" as I distance so maybe a related population, etc.

    Cheers, PT
    I am using Global25 which uses a different "scale" than Dodecad K12b.

    These are the Dodecad K12b distances

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    12.70876936 Italian_Campania
    13.28266798 Italian_Molise
    13.33339112 Italian_Calabria
    13.97269368 Sephardic_Jew
    14.08212586 Greek_Icaria
    14.33625714 Italian_Sicily
    14.49913338 Italian_Abruzzo
    14.57746270 Italian_Jew
    14.64152549 Ashkenazi_Jew
    15.40629802 Italian_Basilicata

    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    10.73443990 Sephardic_Jew
    11.90094114 Greek_Icaria
    11.95750392 Italian_Jew
    11.97646442 Italian_Calabria
    12.49214553 Italian_Campania
    12.70723416 Morocco_Jew
    13.03312702 Ashkenazi_Jew
    13.39700713 Italian_Molise
    13.84223248 Italian_Sicily
    14.39025017 Moldovan_Jewish

    As for Global25, two averages are very close if they have a distance less than 1.30, and close if they have a distance less than 1.80. For the distances of an individual to an average, I also tend to consider 3.00 as the cut-off value although technically there is none.

  4. #79
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    Er Monnezza: Ok, thanks.

  5. #80
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Sorry, duplicate post.


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  6. #81
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Er Monnezza;654178]I base this on the genomes of the ancient Greeks that we have so far. I am Southern Italian, not Albanian.

    "GRC_Mycenaean" is an average of 4 individuals who lived in the Peloponnese between 1346 and 1300 BC.

    "Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" is an average of 2 individuals who lived in the Greek colony of Emporion in Spain between 576 and 276 BC.

    Below you can see the closest modern populations to them, and also note that they are all far apart.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
    0.04621737 Italian_Calabria
    0.04809307 Italian_Campania
    0.04852104 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04995370 Italian_Apulia
    0.04999673 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05085882 Sicilian_East
    0.05100425 Greek_Kos
    0.05223553 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05364111 Italian_Jew
    0.05422879 Italian_Abruzzo

    Distance to: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.04715049 Greek_Deep_Mani
    0.04766329 Italian_Apulia
    0.04778804 Italian_Campania
    0.04857601 Italian_Calabria
    0.04981762 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04994000 Sicilian_East
    0.05206948 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05321564 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05330776 Greek_Kos
    0.05402369 Italian_Molise
    .
    That's not far apart, not when we're talking of a time span of 2000 years, and a folk migration in between. Your Czechs and Brits and Germans are far apart from the ancient Greeks, not the modern Greeks.

    As I've said till I'm blue in the face, that's what from 15-30% of Slavic ancestry will do to you. Doesn't mean they aren't descended from them, and to a substantial degree.

    The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?

  7. #82
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The passage of time did the same to my own genome, which comes out in more than one calculator as 70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like". So, there you go. Those are the results I get, and my genealogical tree shows all my ancestors lived not just on the Italian peninsula, but in the same rather isolated area of the Italian peninsula for at least 1000 years. Are my scores too, "just a coincidence"?
    I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.

    In the PCA below I have circled where a 70% Italic and 30% Minoan individual would plot and where you would plot, if I remember correctly you have Ligurian and Emilian origins.


  8. #83
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Wrong again.

    Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. Ed. We're talking about a component heavy in Anatolian Neolithic with a portion of ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.

    As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

    On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.

    I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.

    Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
    0.01907727 Greek_Crete:817
    0.02057406 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
    0.02065721 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5
    0.02151681 Greek_Crete:751
    0.02192317 Greek_Crete:Crete6
    0.02196253 Greek_Crete:798
    0.02251245 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02274454 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02337586 Greek_Crete:795
    0.02409433 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02442495 Italian_Apulia:GS34
    0.02469108 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02478552 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02522396 Greek_Crete:Crete2
    0.02559006 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02570297 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02571523 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503
    0.02587633 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25
    0.02634186 Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG
    0.02645257 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02665773 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26
    0.02674478 Italian_Apulia:ALP583
    0.02692147 Greek_Crete:774
    0.02692821 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8
    0.02693907 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02696257 Greek_Crete:Crete3
    0.02698185 Greek_Crete:Crete10
    0.02698524 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02726185 Greek_Crete:Crete5
    0.02728106 Greek_Crete:793
    0.02731252 Greek_Crete:744
    0.02736772 Greek_Crete:752
    0.02755490 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40
    0.02759782 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.02772782 Greek_Crete:741
    0.02793692 Greek_Messenia:MES-29
    0.02799300 Greek_Crete:753
    0.02813933 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02820586 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02821764 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02843447 Italian_Basilicata:PG22
    0.02856289 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02856418 Greek_Crete:772
    0.02859414 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H
    0.02873544 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
    0.02916334 Greek_Crete:738
    0.02928948 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17
    0.02938125 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02938921 Greek_Crete:796
    0.02944012 Italian_Calabria:BEL57


    All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

    Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

    Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
    Last edited by Angela; 18-08-22 at 02:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I agree many Greeks of the Peloponnese stayed put in their own regions for years (particularly Deep Maniates and Tsakonians) but I can only speak from the research I did on my paternal line that their families moved South to Messinia (from two villages in Arcadia) with their flocks in the 18th century. I’ve since spoken to someone in Greece about the history of those 2 villages and there’s historical (oral nonetheless) that they were from Epirus. I do think there was some moving around (particularly sheep/goatherders). By no means was I suggesting that Maniates or Tsakonians are from the North (sorry it came across like that). I do believe those two populations in particular have been in Southern Greece for thousands of years
    Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.

  10. #85
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    Do you know the exact villages in question? My paternal line supposedly moved from the Arcadian side of the Arcado-messinian border to northern Messinia around 1800 but they weren’t shepherds. We do not have any known arvanite connection (arvanite villages in messinia form a specific cluster to this day, centered around Dorion aka Soulima, and we are from elsewhere) so if there is one it must be from 18th century Arcadia.
    Yes my paternal grandparents’ were originally from two villages (mile apart) in the mountains SW of Petalidi (Kokkinon and Paneika) Messinia. These 2 villages were settled by sheepherders from Arcadia. My grandfather’s family settled in Messinia in the 17th c from Alonistaina Arcadia and my grandmother’s from the adjacent village of Roino. Those villages aren’t terribly far from Levidi. My mom’s dad was an Arvanite from Aetos Messinia and his family was originally (18th c) from an Arvanite village called Merze near Megalopolis.

  11. #86
    Regular Member Francesco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    I highly doubt such an estimate (70% Latin and 30% "Minoan like") is accurate, first because it is plausible to think that Minoan-like people had largely disappeared by the Iron Age and after, when the modern Italian cline began to take shape, and second because an Italic/Minoan cline falls too far west of the aforementioned Italian cline that was also caused by other movements and repopulations.

    I don't think that "Minoan-like people" should be intended litterally as Minoans, but as a population derived from Minoans, corresponding roughly to the Aegean bronze age cluster (wich is, infact, a bit more north-east shifted).

  12. #87
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wrong again.

    Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.

    As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

    On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.

    I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.

    Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
    0.01907727 Greek_Crete:817
    0.02057406 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
    0.02065721 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5
    0.02151681 Greek_Crete:751
    0.02192317 Greek_Crete:Crete6
    0.02196253 Greek_Crete:798
    0.02251245 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02274454 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02337586 Greek_Crete:795
    0.02409433 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02442495 Italian_Apulia:GS34
    0.02469108 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02478552 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02522396 Greek_Crete:Crete2
    0.02559006 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02570297 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02571523 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503
    0.02587633 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25
    0.02634186 Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG
    0.02645257 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02665773 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26
    0.02674478 Italian_Apulia:ALP583
    0.02692147 Greek_Crete:774
    0.02692821 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8
    0.02693907 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02696257 Greek_Crete:Crete3
    0.02698185 Greek_Crete:Crete10
    0.02698524 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02726185 Greek_Crete:Crete5
    0.02728106 Greek_Crete:793
    0.02731252 Greek_Crete:744
    0.02736772 Greek_Crete:752
    0.02755490 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40
    0.02759782 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.02772782 Greek_Crete:741
    0.02793692 Greek_Messenia:MES-29
    0.02799300 Greek_Crete:753
    0.02813933 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02820586 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02821764 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02843447 Italian_Basilicata:PG22
    0.02856289 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02856418 Greek_Crete:772
    0.02859414 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H
    0.02873544 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
    0.02916334 Greek_Crete:738
    0.02928948 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17
    0.02938125 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02938921 Greek_Crete:796
    0.02944012 Italian_Calabria:BEL57


    All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

    Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

    Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
    Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!

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    Er Monnezza: Regarding the ancient Greeks, here are my G25 simulated distances vs. the ancient Greeks. Personally distances < 0.05 are in my view not bad when you are talking about a Bronze Age population. I also provided Dodecad12B.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.04038985 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
    0.04572758 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.04910292 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.05721194 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.06039257 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.06451359 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.06715366 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
    0.06777463 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
    0.07226258 GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
    0.07688129 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
    0.07833817 GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras:Pta08
    0.08132781 GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    0.08498680 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0070
    0.08603116 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0073
    0.08751703 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0074
    0.08888468 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3709
    0.09012269 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9130
    0.09016593 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I9005
    0.09765612 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9131
    0.10024850 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res:I9129
    0.10234243 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3708
    0.10989734 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937
    0.11253184 GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318
    0.12455383 GRC_N:I5427

    Dodecad 12B
    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
    10.96465686 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
    13.09711037 Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
    13.29675524 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
    17.59052586 Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
    18.26833873 Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
    18.31004369 Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
    19.87612638 Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021
    20.75969894 Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
    20.95289717 Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
    21.02275434 Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
    21.73581837 Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017
    22.36079381 Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
    22.39674083 Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
    24.49760396 Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017
    26.66040322 Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017

  14. #89
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    Wow his top 6 are all Greek! Beautiful!
    It's fitting for someone who was a Classics Minor in university, I suppose, and studied Ancient Greek Literature so intently. :)

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    These are his results from the G25 Europa by Lars:

    0.02634406 Greek_Crete
    0.02944012 Italian_Calabria:BEL57
    0.02962038 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.03021238 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.03039302 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.03295897 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo19
    0.03420458 Greek_Kos
    0.03722615 Greek_Izmir
    0.03839199 Maltese:Malta8AM91
    0.04322283 Sicilian_West:WestSicilian10H
    0.04414997 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.04473829 Greek_Laconia
    0.04916314 Greek_Thessaly
    0.05150904 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.05242056 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.05298864 talian_Tuscany:MURLO114
    0.05548768 Italian_Marche:MarABU050D
    0.05549273 Italian_Tuscany:NA20502
    0.05783949 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.05926052 Albanian:AL82
    0.06470630 Greek_Central_Macedonia:GreeceNE11
    0.07877493 Greek_Trabzon
    0.08076106 Turkish_Deliorman:Turkish_Razgrad2
    0.08472952 Gagauz:GAG-183
    0.08973513 Portuguese:EBC_Portugal2

    Still a lot of Greeks. This guy must not have a lot of samples from Campania, Crete, or Deep Mani.

  16. #91
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Wrong again.

    Have you not read any of Jovialis' posts about the "Minoan LIKE" ancestry which not only he but academics use to partly model modern Italians? Of course we're not talking about actual Minoans. We're talking about a component heavy in ANATOLIA BRONZE AGE which made it's way to Italy. When precisely it arrived and when it moved north I don't yet know.
    Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.

    About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.

    Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
    Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
    49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
    37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
    7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
    4.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
    1.2 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750

    Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
    Distance: 0.0423% / 0.04233144
    57.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
    15.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
    10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
    7.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
    6.9 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
    2.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for my ancestry, I'm half Emilian, but also 1/4 Tuscan and 1/4 Eastern Liguria, which latter group seems to be a lot like TSI, so a summary would be 1/2 Emilian and 1/2 Tuscan.

    On calculators I trust more than G25 I happen to plot between Tuscans and Corsicans and Lombards, closer to the Tuscans and Corsicans and further from the Lombards. (My brother is the one who plots almost exactly midway between the Tuscans and Lombards.) In fact, one of the Corsican samples keeps coming up as my closest match.
    Interesting, could you share your Dodecad K12b values? There are no privacy concerns as they are completely anonymous values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I was under a distance of two to that combination (70% Latin plus 30% MINOAN LIKE), so, as a matter of fact, I think you've proved my point for me. So, not a coincidence at all.
    I don't think so. We actually have radically different views.

    As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also, since this thread is actually about the Greeks, this is my husband's G25 against Matadworf's list of modern Greeks and Italians.
    0.01907727 Greek_Crete:817
    0.02057406 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-9
    0.02065721 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-5
    0.02151681 Greek_Crete:751
    0.02192317 Greek_Crete:Crete6
    0.02196253 Greek_Crete:798
    0.02251245 Italian_Apulia:GS47
    0.02274454 Italian_Campania:NaN128LA
    0.02337586 Greek_Crete:795
    0.02409433 Italian_Campania:NaN212CR
    0.02442495 Italian_Apulia:GS34
    0.02469108 Italian_Apulia:ALP379
    0.02478552 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-6
    0.02522396 Greek_Crete:Crete2
    0.02559006 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.02570297 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.02571523 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp503
    0.02587633 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-25
    0.02634186 Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG
    0.02645257 Italian_Campania:CMP_b002_2
    0.02665773 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-26
    0.02674478 Italian_Apulia:ALP583
    0.02692147 Greek_Crete:774
    0.02692821 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8
    0.02693907 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.02696257 Greek_Crete:Crete3
    0.02698185 Greek_Crete:Crete10
    0.02698524 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo14
    0.02726185 Greek_Crete:Crete5
    0.02728106 Greek_Crete:793
    0.02731252 Greek_Crete:744
    0.02736772 Greek_Crete:752
    0.02755490 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-40
    0.02759782 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-39
    0.02772782 Greek_Crete:741
    0.02793692 Greek_Messenia:MES-29
    0.02799300 Greek_Crete:753
    0.02813933 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-4
    0.02820586 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-8
    0.02821764 Italian_Basilicata:PG16
    0.02843447 Italian_Basilicata:PG22
    0.02856289 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.02856418 Greek_Crete:772
    0.02859414 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian5H
    0.02873544 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-19
    0.02916334 Greek_Crete:738
    0.02928948 Greek_Deep_Mani:ARE-17
    0.02938125 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp090
    0.02938921 Greek_Crete:796
    0.02944012 Italian_Calabria:BEL57


    All his ancestors come from Napoli and the Ionian coast of Calabria, both within sight of ancient Greek settlements. I suppose it's also another "coincidence" that someone with that ancestry should be so close to the people of Crete and Deep Mani?

    Good grief, he should ask for honorary Greek citizenship.

    Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
    They get it if they have it. Your husband is closer to the very Greeks who have less.

    The fact that mainland Greeks and to some extent island Greeks have Slavic ancestry, in different proportions, is shown by Dodecad K12b itself. In a PCA you can just see a cline going from Poland/Ukraine to Central Greece.


  17. #92
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    Why call Minoan-like a component rich in Anatolia_BA? Anatolia_BA (Isparta_EBA) is as distant to Minoans as Campania is to Veneto, ethnically speaking. They are not at all the same.

    About 87% of the ancestry of Minoans is purely Anatolian Neolithic, Anatolia_BA instead has about 65%, not counting the CHG, Iran_N and Natufian of the latter which is less present in the former.

    Target: GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
    Distance: 0.0412% / 0.04124206
    49.5 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
    37.7 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
    7.1 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264
    4.5 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
    1.2 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750

    Target: TUR_Isparta_EBA
    Distance: 0.0423% / 0.04233144
    57.8 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZMOJ_BON014___BC_7950
    15.1 GEO_CHG:KK1___BC_7728
    10.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1954___BC_8212
    7.3 TUR_Boncuklu_N:ZHAG_BON004___BC_7950
    6.9 Levant_Natufian_contam:I1072___BC_10750
    2.7 IRN_Wezmeh_N:WC1___BC_7264



    Interesting, could you share your Dodecad K12b values? There are no privacy concerns as they are completely anonymous values.



    I don't think so. We actually have radically different views.

    As shown in the PCA, the modern Italian cline takes a completely different path from the one you suggest (Italics Anatolians/Minoans). You already know where I want to go with this, but it is not the topic of this thread so I will stop here.





    They get it if they have it. Your husband is closer to the very Greeks who have less.

    The fact that mainland Greeks and to some extent island Greeks have Slavic ancestry, in different proportions, is shown by Dodecad K12b itself. In a PCA you can just see a cline going from Poland/Ukraine to Central Greece.

    I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?

  18. #93
    Regular Member Er Monnezza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?
    I don't know who did the averages and how accurate they are, but this is what comes out.

    Distance to: Greek_Macedonia
    1.75883484 Macedonian_Northeast&Skopje
    1.76618232 Macedonian_Vardar
    1.82548624 Macedonian_South
    1.94617574 Macedonian_East
    2.39703984 Macedonian_Polog
    2.98494556 Albanian_Kosovo
    3.46690063 Bulgarian_East
    3.99801201 Moldovan_Gagauz
    4.29685932 Bulgarian_Central
    5.06928003 Bulgarian_Thrace
    5.19929803 Pomak_Bulgaria
    5.21098839 Greek_Thessaly

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Btw, the G25 would have him believe he has all this Slavic ancestry, but then most people get it in G25, don't they?
    Not really if you use Italic samples.
    Cretans are an off shot of Ancient Greeks, Anatolians and some Slavic but they lack the Italic element which the Calabrese has. When you include future samples from Italic people of Calabria, Calabrese wont need any Slavic admixture like the Cretans do.

  20. #95
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by matadworf View Post
    I’m sorry but that Dodecad PCA looks completely off. Greek Macedonians clustering with Slavic Macedonians?
    I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?


  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?

    It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.

  22. #97
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    It is a Slavophone Macedonian, they are closer to Bulgarians while Grecophones of Macedonia are closer to Peloponnesians.
    Agreed, the academic sample is clearly based on Slavic-speaking individuals from Greece.

  23. #98
    Regular Member matadworf's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I do not know which ones he is using, but there is indeed a very off "Greece Macedonia" academic sample, which looks very much like the Bulgarians and Slavic Macedonians. Could it be that individuals from some linguistic minority in Greece were sampled?


    Yes probably because most PCAs I've seen Greek Macedonians tend to cluster with Thessalians and to a lesser extent Peloponnesians.

  24. #99
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    T-rolls starting from Sikeliot have asked me for my data for 12 years. You think I'm going to give it to "you" so you can manipulate it? You must be mad.

    My results from Jovialis' calculator:

    Distance to: Angela
    3.83896877 27.00% Yamnaya:RISE550:Allentoft_2015 + 73.00% C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019


    Not bad for such ancient samples. So much for Davidski coming on here to tell me if I thought I'd have ancestry from ancient inhabitants of the Italian peninsula I was crazy. Yeah, ok.

    Eupedia Ancient Ethnicities Checker:

    Distance: 1.2242% / 1.22419699
    49.8 Latins_(n=4)
    43.8 Mycenaean_Greeks_(n=4)
    6.1 Yamna_culture_(n=13)
    0.2 Early_Neolithic_Iran_(n=6)
    0.1 Italian_Greeks_(n=2)

    Distance to: Angela
    1.92071940 63.60% Latins_(n=4) + 36.40% Italian_Greeks_(n=2)


    If I'm right about the "Italian Greek" samples, and they are half Latin, then, dividing the 35.40 by 2, I get an additional 18.2% Latin/Ancient Roman, for a total of 81.8%. I'll take that. :)

    There are others, but I think my point is made.


    Please don't keep addressing my posts. You'll get no further responses from me. There's nothing to learn from t-rolls, so you will be going on ignore.

  25. #100
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Country: United States



    Angela: I have been meaning to ask you this. The picture on your profile there that is perhaps your 1) Husband? if Not, 2) the person looks very similar to the Italian actor who played in the movie Transatlantic (ie. Adriano Giannini).

    Regarding your question earlier about why I often get close distances with mainlanders, I gave a brief response but not one in detail in this forum. I just got my ancestry update and it shows 67% Southern Italian along with 21% Greek and Albanian. I get 9% Northern Italian, so that is 97% there. The other is about 2% Levant, 1% UK (I think Norman signal) and it has < 1% North African which is at I would think Trace level.

    My opinion, and that is all it is, I don't think my results are an anomaly for Sicily as Pax noted, he has looked I would assume at those academic samples and indicated that Sicilians can plot with Calabria all the way to Abruzzo. Dodecad12B (updated regional averages, on used Italian Regional averages). G25 modern averages scaled. I think results are similar with those individual G25 results I posted earlier.

    Distance to: PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
    3.55695094 Italian_Campania
    3.83109645 Italian_Abruzzo
    4.03399306 Italian_Sicily
    5.85703850 Italian_Calabria
    6.29590343 Italian_Apulia
    7.04365275 Italian_Marche
    7.65706210 Italian_Lazio
    8.92854971 Italian_Jews
    10.45749014 Italian_Romagna
    13.19033737 Italian_Tuscany
    14.95717219 Italian_Emilia
    15.59693880 Italian_Liguria
    18.60546156 Italian_Lombardy
    18.76266506 Italian_Piedmont
    18.91842752 Italian_Veneto
    20.12546645 Italian_Friuli_VG
    22.89381139 Italian_Trentino
    25.68230909 Italian_Aosta_Valley

    G25 modern averages: Distances <= 0.029
    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.01454319 Italian_Campania
    0.01467787 Italian_Apulia
    0.01578753 Italian_Basilicata
    0.01773697 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.01877336 Sicilian_East
    0.02031561 Italian_Calabria
    0.02059654 Italian_Lazio
    0.02181560 Italian_Molise
    0.02262314 Sicilian_West
    0.02453796 Greek_Laconia
    0.02454989 Greek_Izmir
    0.02598987 Maltese
    0.02656442 Italian_Marche
    0.02736723 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.02749535 Italian_Umbria
    0.02752555 Greek_Crete
    0.02881994 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr_o
    0.02889421 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.02911099 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.02941709 Greek_Peloponnese

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