Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

torzio said:
every Italian on the adriatic side , who can trace their line would have "illyrian" connections
the Adriatic is too small to be a barrier even in ancient times
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I didn't mean to deny that. I was just wandering if Cetina_BA could be autosomically comparable to the proto-italic speakers before entering Italy
 
Francesco said:
Absolutely, I didn't mean to deny that. I was just wandering if Cetina_BA could be autosomically comparable to the proto-italic speakers before entering Italy
Click to expand...


what age is Cetina ?

I think it would be impossible to link with Bronze or iron age people
 
AnthrogenicaMember said:
If you are open to reconsidering how "useless" it is I'm more than willing to share a download link with you :LOL: You're the second to ask for more coverage though.

I wanted to add at least North Africa but the SVG map I'm using has Morocco broken up into regions in a way I don't understand, I can't find matching regions on Wikipedia. It's pretty tedious to identify every country's regions, and then find G25 coordinates that correspond to them.

What would be the most important countries to add first, regarding this thread?

The Levant?
Click to expand...

It would be better if the user had the option to add his own cords for each region since they sometimes get updated and it would be less work for you. Other people would end up covering the coordinate part. Can you include the whole world and let the user edit the coordinates?

About Morocco, either use a Moroccan average to represent all of Morocco or simply use the North Morocco coordinate for the northern parts and South Morocco coordinates for the Southern parts.
 
torzio said:
what age is Cetina ?
I think it would be impossible to link with Bronze or iron age people
Click to expand...

Cetina samples are dated to 1800 BC.

2YfSvSY.png
 
Idontknowwhatimdoing said:
It would be better if the user had the option to add his own cords for each region since they sometimes get updated and it would be less work for you. Other people would end up covering the coordinate part. Can you include the whole world and let the user edit the coordinates?
Click to expand...

Is it okay if the regions are unlabeled? The SVG map I sourced it from is a WIP, only countries are labeled but not regions. But I'm definitely open to doing this.
 
tTSRScq.png


Definitely would like to see more Italic samples processed from various tribes, particularly the Oscans. If they're shifted a bit from Protovillanovan (R1) who is similar to Cetina, that you could easily bracket modern Apulians, and myself with Myceneans.
 
Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?

4Mld0U5.png
 
1337_ said:
Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?
Click to expand...

The former

IDLabelLocalityCountry
I3881MKD_NPista Novo SeloNorth Macedonia
I7231MKD_BADimov Grob, V. Ulanci-GradskoNorth Macedonia
I10171MKD_BA_lcVodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-GradskoNorth Macedonia
I10168MKD_BA_lcSkopje, Skupi, East NecropolisNorth Macedonia
I7233MKD_AncVodovratski Pat, V. Vodovrati-GradskoNorth Macedonia
I10388MKD_AncPlaosnik-OhridNorth Macedonia
I8112MKD_AncLisicin Dol, Marvinci, ValandovoNorth Macedonia
I10383MKD_AncLisicin Dol-Marvinci, ValandovoNorth Macedonia
I10385MKD_AncPlaosnik-OhridNorth Macedonia
I10379MKD_AncBucinci-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10381MKD_AncGovrlevo-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10378MKD_AncBucinci-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10380MKD_IA_lcGovrlevo-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10389MKD_AncPlaosnik-OhridNorth Macedonia
I10387MKD_AncPlaosnik-OhridNorth Macedonia
I10384MKD_AncPlaosnik-OhridNorth Macedonia
I10382MKD_AncGovrlevo-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10377MKD_AncBucinci-SkopjeNorth Macedonia
I10390MKD_AncMarvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)North Macedonia
I10392MKD_Anc_outlier1Isar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest NecropolisNorth Macedonia
I10166MKD_AncIsar Marvinci, V. Marvinci-Valandovo, Southwest NecropolisNorth Macedonia
I10391MKD_AncMarvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)North Macedonia
I10167MKD_Anc_outlier2Marvinci-Valandovo (southwest necropolis)North Macedonia
I2530MKD_MdvTumba S. Opticari, BitolaNorth Macedonia
 
Thanks a lot. They seem similar to the Greek_logkas found in Northern Greece ?
 
Do you have the results of these samples such as K13, K15 or G25 that compares them with modern populations ?
 
Some of these North Macedonian samples can actually be considered Illyrian ? Skopje was an Illyrian town or Paeonian .

Ohrid was Illyrian for example such as Enchele and Dassaretii . Maybe some of those more south which was under Ancient Macedonian influence can be considered Ancient Macedonian .
 
1337_ said:
Are these samples 'MKD' from Northern Macedonia or Greek Macedonia ?
Click to expand...

North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.
 
Er Monnezza said:
North Macedonia. I did the PCA, it includes Mycenaean plus Balkan samples ranging from 1500 BC to the Hellenistic age. Outliers were excluded.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for doing the PCA.

Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest.

I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?
 
Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?
 
1337_ said:
Thanks a lot for doing the PCA.

Can you please post the results of some of these samples found in Skopje and Ohrid ? I wanna see what populations they match closest.

I could possibly also do it myself if you know where I can get their raw data or something ?
Click to expand...

You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UrhcfNMLW0oMXIbHGUE60v2taCM7PFw1/view

Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y/view

Samples

Code: 
MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311
MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149
MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628
MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634
MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269

Closest modern averages

Code: 
Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379
0.04160790    Greek_Corinthia
0.04209242    Italian_Umbria
0.04293713    Italian_Tuscany
0.04331874    Albanian
0.04350649    French_Corsica
0.04363560    Greek_Achaea
0.04382362    Greek_Argolis
0.04386982    Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04493594    Greek_Peloponnese
0.04494455    Italian_Piedmont

Distance to:    MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381
0.03504228    French_Corsica
0.03818658    Italian_Lombardy
0.03870528    Italian_Bergamo
0.03948887    Italian_Piedmont
0.03986299    Italian_Tuscany
0.04137620    Italian_Umbria
0.04242321    Greek_Thessaly
0.04266998    Swiss_Italian
0.04275243    Italian_Veneto
0.04287049    Italian_Marche

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112
0.03277776    Italian_Veneto
0.03282563    Swiss_Italian
0.03394397    Italian_Piedmont
0.03503558    Italian_Bergamo
0.03530438    French_Corsica
0.03569553    Italian_Tuscany
0.03617877    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03898551    Italian_Northeast
0.03908354    Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.03979649    Spanish_Baleares

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383
0.03758136    French_Corsica
0.03813145    Italian_Tuscany
0.03888043    Italian_Piedmont
0.03998897    Swiss_Italian
0.04010991    Italian_Bergamo
0.04024820    Italian_Veneto
0.04093217    Italian_Umbria
0.04426290    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04493292    Italian_Lombardy
0.04603390    Albanian

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390
0.02979567    Italian_Lombardy
0.03365491    Italian_Piedmont
0.03519821    Greek_Thessaly
0.03525994    Italian_Bergamo
0.03596028    Italian_Tuscany
0.03652714    Italian_Marche
0.03657377    French_Corsica
0.03744124    Italian_Liguria
0.04032554    Italian_Veneto
0.04073644    Albanian

Distance to:    MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391
0.03637200    Italian_Marche
0.03665969    Italian_Lombardy
0.03718366    French_Corsica
0.03749688    Greek_Thessaly
0.03754515    Italian_Tuscany
0.03867890    Italian_Piedmont
0.03900322    Greek_Messenia
0.03952154    Greek_Arcadia
0.03992825    Greek_Argolis
0.04068889    Italian_Umbria

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384
0.02658953    Italian_Bergamo
0.02665376    Italian_Piedmont
0.02815767    Italian_Veneto
0.03148070    Italian_Tuscany
0.03157290    Italian_Lombardy
0.03218132    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03292243    French_Corsica
0.03316853    Swiss_Italian
0.03421080    Italian_Northeast
0.03444028    Greek_Thessaly

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385
0.03102428    Italian_Lombardy
0.03106331    Italian_Piedmont
0.03257605    Greek_Thessaly
0.03430976    Italian_Bergamo
0.03548999    Italian_Veneto
0.03595776    Italian_Tuscany
0.03600791    Italian_Liguria
0.03727806    Swiss_Italian
0.03776131    Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03849048    Italian_Northeast

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387
0.04172449    French_Corsica
0.04315419    Italian_Tuscany
0.04317575    Italian_Lombardy
0.04376980    Italian_Bergamo
0.04486060    Italian_Piedmont
0.04673105    Italian_Umbria
0.04761407    Italian_Marche
0.04809777    Greek_Thessaly
0.04835839    Italian_Lazio
0.04992830    Italian_Liguria

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388
0.02865295    Italian_Piedmont
0.02881542    Italian_Tuscany
0.03067725    French_Corsica
0.03111068    Italian_Lombardy
0.03150509    Italian_Bergamo
0.03239027    Greek_Thessaly
0.03339795    Italian_Marche
0.03390751    Italian_Umbria
0.03504262    Albanian
0.03513450    Italian_Veneto

Distance to:    MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389
0.04745656    Italian_Piedmont
0.04809294    Italian_Tuscany
0.04818109    Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.04856204    Swiss_Italian
0.04872707    Greek_Thessaly
0.04898417    Albanian
0.04912564    Rumelia_East
0.05038593    Italian_Veneto
0.05127101    Italian_Northeast
0.05157051    Greek_West_Taygetos

Distance to:    MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233
0.04803218    Italian_Lazio
0.04830066    French_Corsica
0.05103187    Italian_Molise
0.05128321    Italian_Umbria
0.05182249    Italian_Apulia
0.05211776    Italian_Marche
0.05213577    Italian_Abruzzo
0.05261011    Italian_Tuscany
0.05314765    Italian_Basilicata
0.05322605    Greek_Corinthia
 
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