Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

Too close cousin marriage is also forbidden within the Catholic tradition. The rule is that 3rd cousin and beyond is OK, but not second, or especially first cousins. It's one of the reasons that the Council of Trent required that all marriages and births be recorded in the parish of the mother.

In my mother's area, which was in the foothills of the Apennines, there was more out marriage, with Tuscans, Ligurians from near France etc.

My father's area, high atop the Apennines in the province of Parma, was accessible only on foot or by mule until the 1920s. The "marriage circle" was the other villages high in the Apennines. The priests did check to see if the would-be partners were within the prohibited level, but in reality, after 700 years in the same general area with only a few new arrivals per hundred years, I'm sure they were more related than that. That's why Cavalli-Sforza used them for his seminal works on drift in isolated populations. It's also why I became so interested in population genetics; I read an article by him on my father's villages in a biology class. Thank goodness for my father's people that by chance the founder populations didn't seem to carry very many deleterious recessive genes, or there would have been a lot of dangerous diseases and anomalies up there.

Still, a young man and woman, second cousins of my paternal grandmother, but first cousins to each other, sought a dispensation and got one, goodness knows why. Most of their children died at birth or shortly thereafter or were infertile as adults. Only two of the 12 reached adulthood healthy and fertile. They were the cautionary tale I heard repeated over and over again as I grew up, especially because as one of 24 first cousins, all of whom played together all the time and grew up together, I suppose they were worried that attractions could occur. I certainly had what in retrospect was probably a "crush" on my very handsome older cousin, who looked a lot like my father in youth. Of course, one outgrows these things even if one can't name what they are, exactly at the time.

What I find very interesting, however, are the numerous papers, the latest of which was from Scandinavia, showing that some "closeness" in ancestry is actually beneficial. What the scientists found from studying genealogical records from hundreds of years into the past was that while first and second cousin marriages adversely affected fertility and disease risk, i.e. "genetic fitness", the offspring of totally unrelated couples also were less "fit". The most "fit" offspring were the products of third cousin mating. The speculation is that it has something to do with immune system compatibility as one of many possibilities.

There's an old, sexist saying in Italian: moglie e buoi dei paesi tuoi. Wives and oxen from your own village. (Sounds better in Italian because it rhymes.) They didn't know about genes, but they knew certain families ran to certain traits, and that certain marriages had more "luck" where children were concerned. You knew what you were getting, i.e. the bloodlines, the way you would know them about your horses, oxen, dogs etc. and it applied to men too, with marriage into certain male lines being frowned upon. Of course, nowadays, the ability to conceive and bear twelve or more healthy children isn't the boon it used to be. My handsome cousin wound up marrying one of our third cousins. She was very devout, so no birth control, and, to her dismay she joked that all he had to do was get into bed for her to get pregnant. She had seven beautiful, healthy, very intelligent children, but he went grey before his time trying to support them.

This constant "re-passing" of the same genes, especially in rural areas in the era before cars, trains, planes etc. is part of the reason that we see the continuity that we do.
 
First let's address you assertion that it was based on genetic analysis. Within the paragraph you quoted there were two references to other sources. One, reference 55 is "Vandorpe, K. Idnetity in Roman Egypt, 260–276 (Oxford University Press, 2012)." Not a genetics article. The second reference is "Rathbone, D. W. Villages, land and population in Graeco-Roman Egypt. Proc. Cambridge Philolog. Soc. 36, 103–142 (1990).Also not a genetics article.

From further up in the article"

"On the one hand, the interpretation of literary and archaeological sources is often complicated by selective representation and preservation and the fact that markers of foreign identity, such as, for example, Greek or Latin names and ethnics, quickly became ‘status symbols’ and were adopted by natives and foreigners alike"

It seems that there was a loss of archaeological context in the recovered mummies. The authors also come to that conclusion:' This lack of context greatly diminishes the possibility of ‘thick description’ of the analysed individuals, at least in terms of their names, titles and materially expressed identity."

Here's also what I found in the article:

Importantly, there is evidence for foreign influence at Abusir el-Meleq. Individuals with Greek, Latin and Hebrew names are known to have lived at the site and several coffins found at the cemetery used Greek portrait image and adapted Greek statue types to suit ‘Egyptian’ burial practices2,45. The site’s first excavator, Otto Rubensohn, also found a Greek grave inscription in stone as well as a writing board inscribed in Greek46. Taken together with the multitude of Greek papyri that were written at the site, this evidence strongly suggests that at least some inhabitants of Abusir el-Meleq were literate in, and able to speak, Greek45. However, a general issue concerning the site is that several details of the context of the individuals analysed in this study were lost over time. All of the material was excavated by Rubensohn in the early twentieth century, whose main interest was to obtain literary papyri from cartonnage rather than to excavate human remains"

In their conclusions, here's what the authors said:

"Our genetic time transect suggests genetic continuity between the Pre-Ptolemaic, Ptolemaic and Roman populations of Abusir el-Meleq, indicating that foreign rule impacted the town’s population only to a very limited degree at the genetic level. It is possible that the genetic impact of Greek and Roman immigration was more pronounced in the north-western Delta and the Fayum, where most Greek and Roman settlement concentrated43,55, or among the higher classes of Egyptian society"

So the article you quoted adds no genetic answer to the question of Greek population in Egypt in the Ptolemaic and post ptolemaic eras. Further studies might.






Now you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings of the paper.


""The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied," said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute.

This period covered the rule of Alexander the Great (332-323 B.C.), the Ptolemaic dynasty (323-30 B.C.) and part of Roman rule (30 B.C.-A.D. 641). Strict social structures and legal incentives to marry along ethnic lines within these communities may have played a part in the Egyptians' genetic stasis, the paper speculates."

"A lot of people had assumed foreign invaders ... brought a lot of genetic ancestry into the region," Krause said. "People expected that through time, Egypt would become more European, but we see the exact opposite."
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

Now, if you had said maybe it was different in the Delta, or the sample size was too small, you'd have points with which I could agree, but you posted what is either stupid or a prevarication.

You once boasted how you aced the SATS while barely studying, or some such. Give me leave to doubt if you can't read a scientific paper and understand what it's saying, and need it summarized and dumbed down by the authors for you to get it.

That or you're a completely dishonest poster here.

Either way, try to misrepresent the findings of this study one more time and your posting privileges will be suspended. Am I clear?
 
Though it is possible that Maniot and Taygetos are even closer.

But also, the Southern Arc paper did mention that the Mycenaean-like profile also existed in Thrace at the time as well. Basically, they were similar, but not the Mycenaean. So It is possible that Puglia, among other areas of Southern Italy also had a Mycenaean-like population, that was further maintained by Greek colonists. Furthermore, it more likely that Northwestern influences account for the "Northern ancestry" in Apulia (i.e. Bell Beakers--->Italics), rather than straight-up Yamnaya. There is also the influence of Cetina culture, which was similar to modern Northern Italians. One thing I believe is far more likely, is that the "Southern" ancestry in Apulia is likely attributed to early Bronze-Age Aegean-like/Minoan-like peoples.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but on the Albanian threads there is in some members an absolute refusal to accept that finding of the paper.

It's beyond me, but there you have it.
 
I don't know if you're aware of it, but on the Albanian threads there is in some members an absolute refusal to accept that finding of the paper.

It's beyond me, but there you have it.

I just look at those threads like a jumble of nonsense, like the ramblings of a psychopath.
 
Ancient Greek colonisers took local women, sometimes after killing the male population that disagreed, that is a common theme in their relevant ethnography/history.

In Byzantine times, the ethnos was united under the Faith, and language secondary, the Eastern Roman state machine was a behemoth of absorption and assimilation. A lot of the Emperors themselves, even the most successful ones, were often of very diverse backgrounds, not just Greek, like Armenians, Isaurians, Thracians and Illyrians and other Balkaners, Iberians (Spain) and the list goes on. Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty who beat the Bulgars with his reconquista was paternally Armenian and maternally Bulgarian (the opposite mix to Samuel - his mortal enemy), Theodosius was Iberian, the Comnenians were part Thracian part Anatolian (or entirely Thracian depending on the source), Leon the 3rd was part Syrian/part Anatolian (again either/or in some sources) and so on ...

I don't see what the big deal is, these things are known for ages.
 
Ancient Greek colonisers took local women, sometimes after killing the male population that disagreed, that is a common theme in their relevant ethnography/history.

In Byzantine times, the ethnos was united under the Faith, and language secondary, the Eastern Roman state machine was a behemoth of absorption and assimilation. A lot of the Emperors themselves, even the most successful ones, were often of very diverse backgrounds, not just Greek, like Armenians, Isaurians, Thracians and Illyrians and other Balkaners, Iberians (Spain) and the list goes on. Basil II of the Macedonian dynasty who beat the Bulgars with his reconquista was paternally Armenian and maternally Bulgarian (the opposite mix to Samuel - his mortal enemy), Theodosius was Iberian, the Comnenians were part Thracian part Anatolian (or entirely Thracian depending on the source), Leon the 3rd was part Syrian/part Anatolian (again either/or in some sources) and so on ...

I don't see what the big deal is, these things are known for ages.

If I am not mistaken, there was not one Greek (from Greece) Byzantine emperor (although the Byzanties never called themselves Byzantines, they called themselves Romans).

The Byzantine emperors like the Roman emperors moved populations around to counteract depopulation due to wars, famine and disease or rebellions. For example what people call the Slavic invasion might not have been an invasion at all. The Justinian plague decimated the urban centers of the empire. Justinian needed people that paid taxes so although he originally used the Avars to block the Slavs, he warmed up to the idea of them repopulating the Balkans. Georgios Kardaras has some fascinating monographs about the relation of Avars, Slavs and the Byzantine emperors and the truly "byzantine" machinations of the imperial court.
 
If I am not mistaken, there was not one Greek (from Greece) Byzantine emperor (although the Byzanties never called themselves Byzantines, they called themselves Romans).
The Byzantine emperors like the Roman emperors moved populations around to counteract depopulation due to wars, famine and disease or rebellions. For example what people call the Slavic invasion might not have been an invasion at all. The Justinian plague decimated the urban centers of the empire. Justinian needed people that paid taxes so although he originally used the Avars to block the Slavs, he warmed up to the idea of them repopulating the Balkans. Georgios Kardaras has some fascinating monographs about the relation of Avars, Slavs and the Byzantine emperors and the truly "byzantine" machinations of the imperial court.
There were several ethnic Greek emperors (starting from Maurice if we ignore those that were Greek on their mother’s side ) and the core Greek areas back then stretched from Ionian Sea all the way east of Capadocia, so singling out the area from contemporary Greece as not producing emperors is nonsensical. And also inaccurate. From the top of my head, Empress Irene of Athens, is a very famous example. Michael I was from a Greek family with origins in Salonica, probably born in Constantinople, Komnenos family (multiple emperors) were Greek Thracians ( from Orestiada or Didymotichon both in contemporary Greek Thrace) etc. Of course there were also plenty of Armenian, Thracian, Balkan Latin etc emperors.


The Slavs most certainly weren’t settlers that got invited over to populate areas. They were part of a larger wave of population movements (triggered by steppe people etc) and their passage through Greece is well recorded. They avoided garrisoned areas (like Athens, isthmus of Corinth etc), they avoided the densely populated plains and coastal areas and they settled in mountains and highlands, and even created forts to protect themselves. Being pagans they did not become imperial subjects until they got converted to Christianity.
 
G25 version of "Comparing the modeling of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians"

Thank you to Lukas for posting the simulation tool.

It looks the same as the Dodecad K12b version, with some slight variation.

Code:
Yamnaya_Samara,0.122482,0.105703,0.050417,0.094832,-0.019530,0.067302,-0.002916,-0.012350,-0.037627,-0.061136,-0.004795,-0.009621,0.015083,0.002641,0.010517,0.012294,-0.005724,-0.000899,-0.002742,-0.009487,-0.005137,0.001379,0.005377,-0.001199,0.000736
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0.107965,0.175043,-0.043188,-0.081848,0.018443,-0.046239,0.015567,0.022724,0.002661,0.038483,0.003795,0.008205,-0.012183,-0.000822,-0.006065,-0.010807,0.004190,-0.002213,-0.001629,0.008995,0.002561,0.000974,-0.003401,-0.000084,-0.002337
Minoan_Lasithi,0.116961,0.183279,-0.029107,-0.086099,0.027212,-0.045190,0.012910,0.021275,0.010535,0.044143,0.003807,0.008700,-0.013195,-0.004722,-0.002464,-0.006743,0.001660,-0.001554,-0.000353,0.006721,0.003549,0.000216,-0.004245,-0.001076,-0.001736
Minoan_Odigitria,0.117562,0.179047,-0.021343,-0.080214,0.029083,-0.041611,0.011036,0.018722,0.017454,0.048385,0.003171,0.009392,-0.015094,-0.007857,0.000286,-0.003164,-0.000190,-0.000059,0.001772,0.004355,0.004496,0.000056,-0.005525,-0.001839,-0.001131
Minoan_Petras,0.100377,0.176276,-0.029971,-0.085329,0.025730,-0.044810,0.011952,0.021085,0.008989,0.041663,0.003582,0.007105,-0.010081,-0.003382,-0.003147,-0.006996,0.001746,-0.001923,-0.001132,0.007622,0.003310,0.000533,-0.003678,-0.000643,-0.001788



FD3OmIB.png
 
My results from coordinates from Jovialis posts #528 and 548 above.

TargetDistanceMinoan_Odigitria
Minoan_Petras
Yamnaya_Samara
PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY2.79917725
36.540.822.7
Average2.79917725
36.540.822.7




TargetDistanceMinoan_Lasithi
Minoan_Odigitria
Minoan_Petras
Yamnaya_Samara
PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_scaled_DodK120.00757177
19.436.822.721.1
Average0.00757177
19.436.822.721.1
 
Now you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings of the paper.


""The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300-year timespan we studied," said Wolfgang Haak, group leader at the Max Planck Institute.

This period covered the rule of Alexander the Great (332-323 B.C.), the Ptolemaic dynasty (323-30 B.C.) and part of Roman rule (30 B.C.-A.D. 641). Strict social structures and legal incentives to marry along ethnic lines within these communities may have played a part in the Egyptians' genetic stasis, the paper speculates."

"A lot of people had assumed foreign invaders ... brought a lot of genetic ancestry into the region," Krause said. "People expected that through time, Egypt would become more European, but we see the exact opposite."
https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html

Now, if you had said maybe it was different in the Delta, or the sample size was too small, you'd have points with which I could agree, but you posted what is either stupid or a prevarication.

You once boasted how you aced the SATS while barely studying, or some such. Give me leave to doubt if you can't read a scientific paper and understand what it's saying, and need it summarized and dumbed down by the authors for you to get it.

That or you're a completely dishonest poster here.

Either way, try to misrepresent the findings of this study one more time and your posting privileges will be suspended. Am I clear?

How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?
 
How am I misrepresenting them when I quote from the study using the authors own words?


The conclusion of the authors is clearly stated in the paper and is contrary to what you claimed. The statements you quoted as supporting your false conclusion were provided by the authors as context i.e. how the question was analyzed in the past, not the results of the genetic analysis which was the subject of the paper itself. These are the kinds of games that media outlets play in order to get away with libel.

So, if your claim is that you didn't deliberately misrepresent the results, i.e. you knew they didn't actually support your conclusion, then either you didn't read the "whole" paper, where the genetics over time are analyzed, or you weren't intelligent enough to understand what it said.

Which is it?

If you didn't read the whole paper carefully it's negligence, while if you didn't understand it, you're not intelligent enough to be posting about genetics papers. Do you prefer that I draw those conclusions?
 
G25 version of "Comparing the modeling of Ancient Greeks to modern Greeks and Italians"

Thank you to Lukas for posting the simulation tool.

It looks the same as the Dodecad K12b version, with some slight variation.

Code:
Yamnaya_Samara,0.122482,0.105703,0.050417,0.094832,-0.019530,0.067302,-0.002916,-0.012350,-0.037627,-0.061136,-0.004795,-0.009621,0.015083,0.002641,0.010517,0.012294,-0.005724,-0.000899,-0.002742,-0.009487,-0.005137,0.001379,0.005377,-0.001199,0.000736
Minoan_Zakros:I14916,0.107965,0.175043,-0.043188,-0.081848,0.018443,-0.046239,0.015567,0.022724,0.002661,0.038483,0.003795,0.008205,-0.012183,-0.000822,-0.006065,-0.010807,0.004190,-0.002213,-0.001629,0.008995,0.002561,0.000974,-0.003401,-0.000084,-0.002337
Minoan_Lasithi,0.116961,0.183279,-0.029107,-0.086099,0.027212,-0.045190,0.012910,0.021275,0.010535,0.044143,0.003807,0.008700,-0.013195,-0.004722,-0.002464,-0.006743,0.001660,-0.001554,-0.000353,0.006721,0.003549,0.000216,-0.004245,-0.001076,-0.001736
Minoan_Odigitria,0.117562,0.179047,-0.021343,-0.080214,0.029083,-0.041611,0.011036,0.018722,0.017454,0.048385,0.003171,0.009392,-0.015094,-0.007857,0.000286,-0.003164,-0.000190,-0.000059,0.001772,0.004355,0.004496,0.000056,-0.005525,-0.001839,-0.001131
Minoan_Petras,0.100377,0.176276,-0.029971,-0.085329,0.025730,-0.044810,0.011952,0.021085,0.008989,0.041663,0.003582,0.007105,-0.010081,-0.003382,-0.003147,-0.006996,0.001746,-0.001923,-0.001132,0.007622,0.003310,0.000533,-0.003678,-0.000643,-0.001788



FD3OmIB.png


My maternal grandmother came from Paliohori, Arcadia! I've never seen this sample before where did you find this?
 
ZvFHEts.png


PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.

Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:

4Npk0V3.png


Code:
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021,2.02,0.51,1.68,0.46,32.46,23.57,0,0.25,7.97,0,30.09,1
Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021,7.05,1.16,0.26,0,31.18,28.21,0,0.13,4.25,0.92,24.07,2.77
Helladic_Manika_EBA:Mik15:Clemente_2021,0,0,5.75,0.07,41.42,0.91,0,0.03,13.26,0.69,35.94,1.94
Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou01:Clemente_2021,0.13,0,2.62,0,36.59,0.3,0,0,13.35,0.53,45.02,1.45
Cycladic_Koufonisi_EBA:Kou03:Clemente_2021,4.64,0,2.77,0,32.51,1.12,0,0,11.34,0.32,45.28,2.02
Greece_N:Klei10:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,2.1,0.17,46.06,0,0,0,14.18,0,35.73,1.76
Greece_N:Pal7:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.41,0.01,47.42,0,0,0,13.07,0.67,32.97,1.44
Greece_N:Rev5:Hofmanova_2016,0,0,4.74,0,48.42,0,0,0,12.15,0.13,33.21,1.35
Greece_N:I2937:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,2.55,1.31,44.77,0,0,0,12.74,0,36.69,1.95
Greece_N:I5427:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.49,0,48.75,0,0,0,14.27,0,33.81,0.67
Greece_N:I2318:Mathieson_2018,0,0,3.07,0,44.19,0,0,0,13.34,0,39.27,0.13
Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018,0,0.11,4.14,0,44.52,0,0,0.08,15.81,0,35.15,0.18
Greece_N:I3709:Mathieson_2018,0,0,2.84,0.05,41.04,0,0,0,13.53,0,41.5,1.04
Greece_N:I3920:Mathieson_2018,0.45,0,4.53,0.27,35.93,1.27,0,0,15.22,0,41.57,0.76
Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019,1.2,0,2.31,0,22.09,16.57,0,0,20.72,2.25,34.86,0
NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8208:Olalde_2019,0.47,0,4.06,0,36.68,5.45,0,0,12.64,0,40.71,0
Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017,5.02,0,5.95,0,40.19,14.38,0,0,10.66,0,23.79,0
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
GRC_Anc_lc:I17960,5.36,0,0,0,42.92,4.68,0,4.95,17.09,0,25,0
GRC_BA_Mycenaean_lc:I13513_d,31.26,0,7.84,0,37.36,0,0,0,0,0,16.51,7.03
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17959,0,0,8.54,0,41.76,4.79,0.66,0,6.3,0,31.75,6.21
GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962,0.06,0,3.38,0,34.64,9.52,0,0,13.96,0,38.41,0.03
GRC_Marathon_Rom:I7833,10.29,0,1.72,1.05,19.47,7.73,0,0.21,17.41,0.01,41.68,0.42
GRC_Minoan_Zakros_BA:I14916,0,0,3.51,0,31.15,0,2.37,0,12.57,0,49.61,0.8
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872,0,0,0,0,47.61,16.94,0,0,20.45,0,15,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15571,0,0,1.64,0,35.27,6.83,0.7,0.15,13.84,0,41.49,0.07
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582,4.53,0,0.92,0,37.27,7.66,0,0,14.58,0,33.89,1.15
GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709,0.19,0,0.01,0,37.3,9.73,0,0.7,10.32,0,41.76,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA_lc:I13536_d,20.92,0.52,0,0,58.77,0,0,5.31,6.03,0.33,8.13,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428,0,0,1.84,1.71,36.38,12.43,0,0,12.93,0,33.33,1.38
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13433,13.68,0,9,0,44.13,3.91,0,0,3.36,0,25.92,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531,1.13,0,0,0,41.42,8.5,0,0,24.65,0,24.31,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532,12.5,3.41,0,0,44.31,10.13,0,0,15.75,0.83,13.08,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577,2.53,0,2.04,0,33.85,13.18,0,0,9.85,0,38.55,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578,0,0,0.53,1.29,36.65,11.19,0,0,13.64,0,36.7,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579,0,0,6.05,0,39.89,8.35,0,0,9.11,0.68,35.54,0.38
GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580,0,0,0,1.88,39.34,13.06,3.84,0.49,9.46,0,31.93,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA:I6420_d,9.95,0,0,0,25.98,2.98,8.46,0,10.77,0,41.85,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d,0.42,0,4.22,0,37.3,10.96,0,0,12.06,0,33.29,1.75
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13510,1.92,0,2.31,0,25.3,4.43,0,0.75,13.83,0,50.95,0.51
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514,0.95,0.27,1.01,0,36.38,9.69,0,0,14.02,0.44,36.97,0.28
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13516,0,0,0.29,0,36.62,7.11,0,0,10.35,0,45.62,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d,5.93,0,1.29,0,29.47,8.9,0,1.56,11.07,0.47,40.66,0.66
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518,1.94,0,3.13,0,34.67,11.03,0,0.24,10.94,0,37.88,0.17
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13519_d,4.35,0,0.06,0,21.58,9.83,0,0,9.52,0,54.65,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364,1.47,0.43,0,0,43.97,3.16,2.4,1.03,9.64,0,37.9,0
GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19366,3.12,0,1.75,1.41,30.86,7.95,0,0,14.35,0,40.57,0
GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368,5.03,0,3.65,0,27.74,15.8,0,0,7.46,0,39.85,0.48
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17878,7.68,0,2.45,0.39,42.04,4.78,0,0,15.54,0,27.11,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17879,10.6,0.42,0,0,33.53,0,12.83,0,18.24,0,24.39,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17881,8.56,0,10.82,1.79,35.00,0,0,0,8.36,6.78,28.69,0
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884,13.72,0,5.57,0,31.10,5.86,0,0,12.13,0,31.61,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I17887,6.04,0,2.01,0,48,1.93,0,0.5,0,0,41.51,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20160,0,3.56,0,0,48.09,6.29,0,0,0,0,40.21,1.85
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20161,8.17,0,0,0,48.11,0.15,0,0,18.81,5.19,19.56,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20162,0.54,4.57,4.04,0,38.38,6.06,1.58,1.42,12.16,0,31.24,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163,0,0,1.01,0,44.03,15.69,0,0,9.47,0,25.85,3.95
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166,1.3,0,2.27,0,24.86,17.92,0,0,13.05,0,40.39,0.21
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc:I20167,25.91,2.37,0,0,32.61,10.08,0,0,2.47,0,26.56,0
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168,3.15,0,5.53,0,27.61,10.89,1.03,0,8.76,5.28,37.74,0
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217,3.47,0,3.7,1.5,36.68,8.46,0,0,10.54,0,34.73,0.93
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218,1.53,0.56,1.25,0,38.25,9.27,0,0.74,13.01,0.56,33.99,0.85
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7219,0,0,2.62,0,34.85,9.15,0,0,11.07,0.18,40.95,1.18
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7221,3.06,0.08,1.62,0.41,29.82,7.16,0,0,11.3,0.78,44.15,1.62
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223,0.26,0.14,2.97,0.87,41.92,13.23,0.2,0,10.42,0,28.22,1.77
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224,0.86,0,2.28,0.62,37.93,12.11,1.09,0,9.92,0,33.83,1.36
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225,0.92,0,2.71,0.52,43.93,8.64,0,0,7.8,0.99,33.38,1.1
Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I17432,0,0.13,3.96,1.03,47.81,6.96,0,0,8.93,0.32,29.64,1.22
Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17866,1.68,0,1.94,0,32.63,9.06,0,0,13.94,0.50,39.80,0.44
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952,0.81,0,3.09,0.31,35.29,10.84,0,0,10.74,0,37.6,1.32
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948,2.23,0,3.8,0.53,38.48,7.24,0.06,0,12.5,0.59,33.38,1.19
Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945,3.57,0.02,3.49,0,34.37,8.7,1.25,0,9.75,0.51,37.33,1

Yamnaya_Samara

Code:
Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015,29.21,3.13,0,0,3.94,57.21,2.44,0,0,0,3.33,0.75
Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015,30.56,1.4,0,0,7.38,54.65,1.41,0,0,0,4.49,0.12
Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015,30.97,3.96,0,0,4.88,57.16,0.12,0,0,0,1.92,0.99
Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015,28.47,1.92,0,0,3.71,62.57,0.96,0.21,0,0,1.45,0.7
Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015,26.82,1.54,0,0.39,0.6,60.83,1.8,0,0,0,7.77,0.25
Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015,24.1,0.47,0,0.94,8.87,55.96,2.12,0,0,0,7.16,0.37
Yamnaya_Samara:I0441:Mathieson_2015,33.85,2.03,0,0.21,1.48,59.11,2.63,0,0,0,0,0.69
Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015,29.61,2.46,0,0,3.67,58.66,0.07,0,0,0,4.84,0.69
Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015,29.41,1.68,0,0,6.52,59.52,0.6,0.02,0,0,1.07,1.19
 
Iron age greeks seem even more similar to modern southern italians and Cycladic inhabitants and appear a bit more north shifted on the PCA: maybe the interaction both with the doric and anatolian world brought a little bit more EHG and CHG admixture? Just some random thoughts looking at the above PCA.

ZvFHEts.png


PCA using modern academic West Eurasians as a source (not projected), with a projection of the new HO samples along with all modern Ancient Greek samples, and Yamnaya_Samara.

Multi with Yamnaya_Samara omitted from the source:

4Npk0V3.png

I wonder if the Helladic_Logkas sample could be seen as a proxy for proto-oscan-like ancestry
 
Last edited:
Based on Jovialis set (post #556)

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
5.70363919Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
8.03052925Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
12.87863735Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
14.96215894Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
15.09736401Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
15.74680920GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
15.90255954GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
16.05556601Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
17.00930922GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
17.33531655GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
17.86014278GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
18.56199881GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
18.68982343Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
18.78719777Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
18.82408032GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
18.92371792Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
19.09835071Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
19.58297730Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
19.83113965Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
19.83989163GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
19.87338924Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
19.88636216GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
20.07192567Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
20.29479983Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
20.74404011NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2):I8205:Olalde_2019

Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 0.9396% / 0.93959741 | ADC: 0.25x RC

66.6Helladic_Logkas_MBA
13.0Armenoi_Crete
12.2GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
8.2Yamnaya_Samara


Target: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
Distance: 0.9166% / 0.91663302

56.3Helladic_Logkas_MBA
13.7Armenoi_Crete
13.2GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
10.1Yamnaya_Samara
5.4GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA
1.3Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc

Distance to:Dodecadk12bStuvanè
3.0675037679.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0438:Mathieson_2015
3.4800730876.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 23.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13531
3.6079899077.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 23.00% Yamnaya_Samara:I0439:Mathieson_2015
3.8450232079.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0443:Mathieson_2015
3.8472377180.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 19.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0429:Mathieson_2015
3.9346014285.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 14.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532
4.0882204769.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 31.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
4.1712497475.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.20% Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
4.2062605370.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 29.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
4.2190864579.40% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.60% Yamnaya_Samara:I0231:Mathieson_2015
4.2473376764.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 36.00% Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
4.2888655568.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 32.00% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
4.3092014281.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.80% Greece_N:I3708:Mathieson_2018
4.3418124873.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
4.3681351879.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0444:Mathieson_2015
4.3838539273.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 27.00% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
4.4480588965.20% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 34.80% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
4.4520866374.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514
4.4851718774.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
4.4940432778.60% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 21.40% Yamnaya_Samara:I0357:Mathieson_2015
4.4948189586.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 + 13.60% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872
4.4961302875.40% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 24.60% GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
4.5401129182.00% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 18.00% Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.5486549979.80% Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223 + 20.20% Yamnaya_Samara:I0370:Mathieson_2015
4.5625591574.60% Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 + 25.40% GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
 
no where near me

Distance to: Torziok12b
13.78342097 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
15.00850116 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
16.01977216 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
17.85823620 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20163
19.44357477 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7223
20.84526325 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13580
21.86613820 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7224
22.26714171 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13428
23.09377838 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
23.50153186 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I14872
23.82265308 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
24.11690486 GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
24.28304553 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13532
24.61253542 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7218
24.73625679 Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
24.74051131 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I7217
25.04725933 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
25.21423011 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10952
25.28458028 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13578
25.28884932 Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I7225
25.72402768 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I15582
25.74470431 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10948
25.83917955 Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
25.94860883 Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
26.07406758 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166


Target: Torziok12b
Distance: 2.9285% / 2.92845448
33.5 Yamnaya_Samara
22.8 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA
22.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med
21.0 Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med_lc
0.7 Helladic_Logkas_MBA
 

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