In the context we discuss you can go very wrong with that.It is possible with Y-DNA. You can’t go wrong with that.
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In the context we discuss you can go very wrong with that.It is possible with Y-DNA. You can’t go wrong with that.
I don't know for sure, mate, I haven't read too much for the particularities of that period, there were alot of Albanophones and Arvanites in their ranks for sure.
So why we get so much hate from Greeks
That's not exactly true, Pontics were around 350K registered with the Lausanne Treaty, imo much more in actual numbers, and another 150K from the Caucasus/former USSR in the early 1990s.
The GREEKALPOP is the reference name.
The FST distance run is the proof for the argument I made several posts ago, you can scroll back and re-read.
For Greeks you're using the Armenian average to represent Anatolia/Caucasus and Serbian to represent South Slav? So I'm guessing high Steppe (40%) for the Serb sample what about the Armenian sample what does this represent? Explain the logic for this model.
Target: Turkish_Northwest Distance: 0.9214% / 0.00921406 | |
---|---|
43.2 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian) |
36.2 | Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad |
11.4 | 4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
7.4 | 1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc |
1.8 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
Target: Turkish_Central Distance: 0.5316% / 0.00531589 | |
66.0 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Armenian) |
24.2 | Turkic_Kazakhstan_700ad |
4.4 | 4.Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
4.0 | 1.Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc |
1.2 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
0.2 | African |
These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any.
From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:
“We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”
I have only recently started to post here and I am mostly unaware of various posting agendas although I start to get an idea. To strengthen your point I will repeat this:The new paper has clear labels for the modern samples and has used them to model I will refrain from expanding on the obvious, meaning that said groups and others have shared a language and culture for millenia, since i suspect that wont be particularly convincing to the usual subjects that seek to paint Greece and Anatolia as fundamentally different.
I can smell the jealousy of Greeks from Anatolia and Cyprus when they make such ridiculous claims as that some modern Greeks "just happen" to cluster close to Mycenaeans because they have both "southern" and "northern" gene flows (instead of the far more parsimonious explanation they have fewer northern input than other Greeks) or that ancient Greeks (I assume they mean from the mainland as well) had 30-40% Anatolia_BA without any shred of evidence.
Target: Mycenaean_Greek_1350bc Distance: 2.2773% / 0.02277288 | |
---|---|
39.6 | Anatolia_Isparta_EBA_2400bc |
30.4 | Anatolian_Neolithic_Farmer_Barcin |
30.0 | GRC_Logkas_MBA(Maybe_Proto-Greek-like) |
And I add also Albanians claiming that Greeks are a hodgepodge of every neighbouring population who "just happen" to cluster close to them who are actually 100% or almost native Balkanites.
It is tiresome that one has to waddle through pages of wild speculations fueled by ethnic inferiority complexes to get to interesting thoughts.
These models might point us to a general direction when the big picture is concerned but they are not very informative because our ancient sample size is so limited and that can skew things quite a bit. For example, in the model posted by idontknowwhatimdoing Dodecanese islanders pickup Slavic admixture, but when a proper pre Slavic sample is used (the one from Marathon) they don’t pick any.
From the Danubian Limes paper supplement:
“We observe Northeastern Europe-related ancestry in the Cyclades and Crete which are more closely located to the Greek mainland. This ancestry signal (absent in Iron Age and Roman Balkan populations) decreases from North to South in the Balkans, but it is still substantial in populations from these Aegean islands. However, this North-Eastern signal is not significant in the farther islands: the Dodecanese and Cyprus, who even rejects the model by having negative values in the former.”
Concerning the Byzantine relocations from the east Eupator cites, we already know they didn’t play much of a role because again as per the Marathon sample which is dated to 252-412 CE, a Dodecanesian like profile already existed in Greece. When taking such a profile as a starting point nothing from the east gets picked up for modern Greek samples. In fact something abit more western like the Maniots (they plot with or slightly west of Crete) works better for mainland groups than using Dodecanesians.
Therefore, movements mentioned in vague historical sources are not solid proof of population replacement, ancient Dna is, at least when there is an adequate sample size to cover different eras and areas. We are quite a bit off from having an exhaustive sample size but we will eventually get there. Some of the theories proposed here might be proven, or not and some atleast (like byzantine era movements) already look unlikely.
The southern Arc paper is probably coming out in two days, if they have sufficient samples form the Archaic/classical/Roman era we might be able to get a general idea of what happened in Greece and the Balkans, why not chill out and wait for it to drop?
As a side note it is going to be fairly easy to tell when something is a coincidence or not. That Cretans are Saracens mixed with Varangians like Eupator sugested is quite an amusing idea, but it is very unlikely to be confirmed by ancient dna. The general picture painted for Crete will likely be that which was suggested in the Danubian Limes paper.
Also, concerning linguistic affinities especially in the late Ottoman period.
This ethnographic map by Cvijic shows the linguistic (the term ethnic is used rather) for the late Ottoman period in the region.
My father's village as you can see below is painted as brown=Greek.
But if you read Meletios' Geography and History you get the following ethnographic detail:
The village is referred to be made by Arvanites ("Arvanitovillage").
So you can see the depths you have to go into to secure the ethnographic details and nuisances of each place inside the Byzantine and Ottoman periods where so many ethnic groups lived next to each other, where so many languages were spoken simultaneously.
How can anyone with a straight face say there is this ultimately unbroken continuity to 2000 B.C. in the region?
As for Crete, and their supposed unbroken continuity to Minoan and Mycenean times, I copy+paste an older relevant post of mine:
Modern Peloponnesians can’t be medieval Anatolian/south Italian Greek replacements while simultaneously having substantial Slavic ancestry and no ancient Greek ancestry, all while really being Albanians, Turks, Vlachs and others. That would be a gymnastic level of shape shifting to make a Fallmerayer type of argument.
Target: Greek_Deep_Mani Distance: 0.6221% / 0.00622115 | |
---|---|
37.0 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
31.2 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
17.0 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
14.8 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 0.7652% / 0.00765245 | |
52.0 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
29.6 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
12.0 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
6.4 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia Distance: 0.7745% / 0.00774540 | |
44.2 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
26.0 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
22.0 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
7.8 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
Target: Greek_Macedonia Distance: 0.7222% / 0.00722199 | |
---|---|
59.4 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
21.0 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
19.6 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
Target: Greek_Achaea Distance: 0.6698% / 0.00669781 | |
53.6 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
29.8 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
10.2 | 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC |
6.4 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
Target: Greek_Thessaly Distance: 1.1229% / 0.01122937 | |
54.6 | 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) |
34.6 | 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) |
10.8 | 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) |
Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.Deep Mani on G25 scores 37% ancient Greek and 31% Balkan + Slavic. Greek Cypriots on qpAdm score 35% ancient Greek with such models and 31% on G25. So if you adjust it based on that G25 error then on qpAdm Deep Mani would score around 43% ancient Greek. They seem to have less Balkan-Slavic ancestry than the rest of the mainland Greeks. The rest of Peloponnese seems similar to other mainland Greeks but with a bit less Balkan and Slavic.
Target: Greek_Deep_Mani
Distance: 0.6221% / 0.0062211537.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 31.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 17.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC 14.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 0.7652% / 0.0076524552.0 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 29.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 12.0 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC 6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) Target: Greek_North_Tsakonia
Distance: 0.7745% / 0.0077454044.2 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 26.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 22.0 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) 7.8 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC
Target: Greek_Macedonia
Distance: 0.7222% / 0.0072219959.4 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 21.0 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 19.6 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) Target: Greek_Achaea
Distance: 0.6698% / 0.0066978153.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 29.8 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 10.2 2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC 6.4 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic) Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.1229% / 0.0112293754.6 4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian) 34.6 1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion) 10.8 3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic)
Could you please provide specific samples and coordinates for these admixture results both individual and combined.
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):GRC_Mycenaean:Average,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
1.Ancient_Greek(Mycenaean+Emporion):Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
2.Levant_Sidon_1900BC:Levant_Sidon_MBA,0.0812696,0.1468454,-0.0613196,-0.0979336,-0.0105248,-0.0389334,-0.0047942,-0.0065998,0.0114534,0.0101686,0.0104904,-0.0097712,0.0215854,0.005505,-0.0075734,0.0065234,-0.0001562,-0.0011906,0.0015086,0.004252,0.0042674,0.007543,-0.0012572,0.0015906,-0.0005028
3.Anatolia/Caucasus(Pre_Turkic):Armenian,0.1034341,0.13861054,-0.056434355,-0.062990873,-0.027627409,-0.016951482,0.0038348,-0.0061151,-0.028213127,-0.0019019,0.0034337909,0.0020599545,-0.0026677727,0.0023908727,-0.0062209091,-0.00058341818,0.0025223182,0.0013912818,0.0017540818,-0.0018327,0.0017730455,0.0017749727,-0.0010857182,-0.0008993,0.0010700727
4.Paleo-Balkan+Slavic(Serbian),0.1273334,0.137229,0.040024,0.0148299,0.0314974,0.0045957,0.0048738,0.006672,-0.0011737,-7.9e-06,-0.0022946,-0.001251,0.0034128,0.012434,-0.0128875,-0.0008358,0.0040476,0.0005894,0.0043011,-0.0024468,-0.0083168,-0.0017151,0.0048925,0.000372,-0.0020097
Greek_Cypriot,0.1018718,0.1466806,-0.0343886,-0.0680319,-0.0024042,-0.0226075,-0.0005141,-0.0038798,-0.0029784,0.0168911,0.0034406,0.0013208,0.00013,0.0022106,-0.0131309,0.0010028,0.0056799,0.0009977,0.0037945,-0.0017352,-0.0019652,0.0018239,-0.0011324,0.0027337,-0.0007709
Greek_Achaea,0.1176476,0.1447334,0.008915,-0.0254524,0.0186618,-0.0085564,0.0029704,-7.38e-05,0.0028634,0.0153514,0.0010198,0.0014746,-0.0018315,0.006727,-0.0149347,-0.0008963,0.0074268,-0.0001216,0.0049677,-0.004047,-0.0064686,0.0013948,0.0035248,0.0019616,-0.0025866
Greek_Arcadia,0.1173137,0.1434605,0.0074167,-0.0243973,0.0207219,-0.011323,0.003337,-4.62e-05,-0.0002999,0.015235,0.0016347,0.0019181,-0.0021704,0.0085878,-0.0162594,-0.0033235,0.0038595,0.0007095,0.0070473,-0.0058945,-0.007337,-0.0005687,0.0013559,0.0001124,-0.0007663
Greek_Argolis,0.1198699,0.143634,0.0072359,-0.0265264,0.0190804,-0.0092382,0.0014982,-0.0011106,-0.0006774,0.0167202,0.0027098,0.0024354,-0.0035214,0.0072424,-0.0158029,-0.0028425,0.0068207,0.0013936,0.0059943,-0.0055808,-0.0083368,0.0005334,0.0015714,9.79e-05,-0.0029189
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.0157725,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
Greek_Corinthia,0.1185182,0.1451572,0.0064346,-0.0262841,0.0191573,-0.0088025,0.0018947,-0.0004902,0.0007668,0.0167543,0.001563,0.0023229,-0.0036701,0.0068037,-0.0156502,-0.0015994,0.0104959,0.0001266,0.0073848,-0.0052291,-0.0078612,-0.0003553,0.0024342,0.0030349,-0.0011226
Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692
Greek_Deep_Mani,0.1106252,0.1485574,-0.011152,-0.0442049,0.0119434,-0.0166139,0.0008952,-0.000989,0.0015582,0.0186748,0.0019332,0.0022052,-0.0026263,0.0046202,-0.013501,-0.0039461,0.0044454,0.0015564,0.0034178,-0.0042818,-0.006447,0.0014544,0.0002465,0.0001434,-0.0008668
Greek_Dodecanese,0.1059692,0.1461347,-0.0244374,-0.0567511,0.0021851,-0.0183789,0.0038071,-0.0042228,-0.0028019,0.0166563,0.0048066,0.0020682,-0.0044895,-0.0005644,-0.0123505,-0.0012728,0.0032987,0.0050168,0.0058701,-0.0047523,-0.0043049,-0.0009647,0.000345,-0.0008676,-0.0034127
Greek_East_Taygetos,0.1150109,0.1460155,0.0047548,-0.0286206,0.0174345,-0.0104887,0.0022683,-0.0005318,0.0011383,0.013747,0.001059,0.0011339,-0.0021912,0.0070846,-0.0128167,-0.0036895,0.0039286,0.0010411,0.0034376,-0.0050459,-0.0053601,0.0018118,0.0031883,0.0015821,-0.0008902
Greek_Elis,0.1157677,0.1446283,0.0068195,-0.0252344,0.0180801,-0.0090639,0.0024088,0.0015192,0.000375,0.0140854,0.0017525,0.0022918,-0.0023414,0.0060496,-0.0155061,-0.0028507,0.0079481,0.001003,0.0067352,-0.0041583,-0.0060466,-7.21e-05,0.0019104,0.0012954,-0.0023351
Greek_Izmir,0.1146199,0.1443068,-0.0024135,-0.0345287,0.0149874,-0.0126059,0.0025145,-0.0015,-0.0022907,0.0150346,0.0018999,0.0031323,-0.003434,0.0018576,-0.0129749,0.0001989,0.0107827,-0.0001141,0.0059203,-0.0030515,-0.0060393,0.0019289,0.0002095,0.0023496,-0.0030056
Greek_Kos,0.1076261,0.1464618,-0.0220407,-0.0538692,0.0041031,-0.018252,0.0008617,-0.0036921,-0.0059994,0.0167861,0.0026524,0.0031472,-0.0039148,0.0009634,-0.0106012,0.0029906,0.0100107,0.0009432,0.0037151,-0.0036407,-0.0038128,0.0016762,-0.0001778,-0.0014059,-0.0021157
Greek_Laconia,0.1143004,0.1474811,0.0042943,-0.0296847,0.0171445,-0.0101211,0.002206,-0.000551,0.0011545,0.0148259,0.0030906,0.0009669,-0.0017647,0.0072185,-0.0141456,-0.0035201,0.0048915,0.0008909,0.0045211,-0.0064063,-0.0065208,0.0018549,0.0031527,0.0018075,-0.0020203
Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986
Greek_Messenia,0.1178508,0.1445568,0.0081661,-0.024225,0.0192461,-0.00871,0.0032629,2.67e-05,-3.14e-05,0.0146351,0.0010367,0.0016601,-0.0035851,0.0075851,-0.0144855,-0.0053903,0.0042024,0.0015056,0.008359,-0.0051948,-0.0062102,0.0019832,0.0026357,0.0018445,-0.0011423
Greek_North_Tsakonia,0.1169849,0.1444308,0.0005449,-0.030362,0.0156609,-0.0114654,0.0022717,0.0006667,0.0007272,0.0148826,0.0026342,0.0021814,-0.0024117,0.0077988,-0.0137228,-0.0073511,0.0010867,0.0024773,0.0061592,-0.0057807,-0.004104,0.0038469,0.0009177,0.0011244,0.0016898
Greek_Peloponnese,0.117393,0.1445745,0.0071996,-0.0279395,0.0195001,-0.0102429,0.003429,8.4e-05,0.0019895,0.0140653,0.0040523,0.000872,-0.0016691,0.0049669,-0.0158114,0.0002169,0.0066851,0.0010192,0.0063877,-0.0044055,-0.0066928,0.0010004,0.003815,0.0010133,-0.0018506
Greek_South_Tsakonia,0.1163271,0.1441377,-0.0026399,-0.0354439,0.013705,-0.0118809,0.0016293,-0.0010462,-0.0001772,0.0167171,0.002858,0.0016585,-0.0039443,0.0036515,-0.0151555,-0.0001413,0.0093964,-0.0004814,0.004852,-0.0027095,-0.005091,0.0011789,0.0005342,-0.0001526,-0.0006147
Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0.0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
Greek_West_Taygetos,0.1175698,0.1442053,0.0094751,-0.0220582,0.0188753,-0.0080995,0.0044944,0.0011058,7.67e-05,0.0114581,0.0009607,0.0003308,-0.0003903,0.0069844,-0.0116832,-0.0025855,0.003955,0.0008921,0.0035772,-0.0040174,-0.0062598,4.62e-05,0.0016998,0.0020183,-0.0010777
Be careful with possible overlap between Ancient Greek and Paleo-Balkan. Ancient Greeks i.e. LBA Mycenaeans might already have Paleo Balkan ancestry. Try to use distinct populations with no overlap.
That is why i used Serbian which is a mix of Paleo-Balkan and Slavic and not separate Paleo-Balkan and Slavic proxies. I don't get why you said that when i made sure that the overlap doesn't happen.
Mycenaeans have around 30% Paleo-Balkan like admix probably more similar to the Logkas samples (almost 0 WHG). The rest of it is Minoan like.
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