Comparing Ancient Greek populations to modern Greeks and Italians

[Angela]

So CHG fed into Iran N prior to the Neolithic, right (I'm guessing a significant chunk)-thus the interchangeability? My other question that was brought up by another poster was the comment by Lazaridis (I may be misrepresenting what he said) about the Balkan IE source that came South into Greece during the Bronze age was like 60-70 CHG/30 EHG. So could an additional source of CHG found in Myceneans coming from that population?

CHG looks to me like Iran Neo "like" populations, who knows how old in Iran, who got a bit of additional ANE.

 

[Angela]

When Iran_N is not included, a similar percentage also comes out on Global25 (5.8% Levant_PNB). But that still does not justify the allegedly close proximity between Mycenaean or Kapitan Andreevo and Alalakh.



Luckily, "my" platform would never reproduce shitty results like these, taken directly from the paper.

Etruscan_Tarquinia = CHG 14.45%, EHG 9.87%, Levant_PPN 5.94%, SRB_Iron_Gates_HG 13.57%, TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N 56.19%

Imagine then using these results to prove a very recent connection between the Etruscans and West Asia. The paper did the same with Yamnaya by claiming non-existent Levantine admixture.



If you are referring to Alalakh_MLBA, that average is fully North Levantine and clusters close to EMBA Syrians from Ebla.

Closest averages on G25

Distance to: TUR_Alalakh_MLBA
0.01382046 TUR_SE_Kilis_MBA
0.01407303 SYR_Ebla_EMBA
0.01891936 TUR_SE_Kilis_EBA_A
0.02302061 MKD_Anc_outlier1
0.02370778 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
0.02471069 Levant_LBN_Roman
0.02483178 IRN_DinkhaTepe_BIA_A

Dodecad K12b distances with modern populations

Distance to: Alalakh_MLBA
5.33902045 Lebanese_Christian
5.81571781 Palestinian_Christian
6.23079967 Syrian_Christian
6.70861389 Jordanian_Christian
8.23371704 Nusayri_Turkey
8.27243029 Iraqi_Jew
8.71029762 Kurdish_Jew
9.32366659 Assyrian_West
9.62651803 Assyrian_South

A distance of 5 and 6 isn't very impressive. I'm not interested in G25 analyses. If he wants to be taken seriously, then post the methodology and the source of the samples, the way that academicians do. Otherwise, it's always going to be suspect to anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Do you mean to say that the Greek E-V13 is older than the E-V13 found in Albanians?

How about the Mycenaean like E-V13 sample found in the EBA in Bulgaria.

How about the E-V13 found further north.

It would seem to me that before drawing all these conclusions a diagram should be done showing the branches and age of the samples. Southern Italian E-V13 should be included as well.

I saw the old Hungary samples from around the time of the Nicaea sample. The modern Greek samples in older E-V13 branches are in Y159845 (a sub-branch of Y30977/Nicaea sample), BY3880 and Z17264. Based on the Nicaea finding and branch ages, the introduction of E-V13 in the Greek world might not be a novel thing. Went too far with speculation, sorry. But did learn something. Was expecting to not see Greek samples high up in the tree, thinking they would branch down from other modern Balkan ethnic groups.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

 

[ihype02]

Nobody is claiming that E-V13 was 100% non existent in Ancient Greece. Because old Greeks had contact with Thracians too. But in Peloponnese it's spread seems mostly medieval.
Slavs in Croatia brought some E-V13 picked by nearby the Danube region. One big clade in Montenegro is related with Roman migrants and some with Slavic migration and some with Albanians.

 

[AnthrogenicaMember]

A distance of 5 and 6 isn't very impressive. I'm not interested in G25 analyses. If he wants to be taken seriously, then post the methodology and the source of the samples, the way that academicians do. Otherwise, it's always going to be suspect to anyone who hasn't drunk the kool-aid.

My modern ancestry composition at IllustrativeDNA (using G25 coordinates) was overall more accurate than what 23andMe told me.

I don't understand the hate for G25.

 

[Idontknowwhatimdoing]

Heatmaps illustrating relative distances to modern populations:

Are the heatmaps available to use for free online?
Edit: nevermind, it's not free and it's useless. It only includes Europe.

 

[AnthrogenicaMember]

These at most are simulated coordinates for Emilia-Romagna. If simulated ones were used, then all simulated ones should be used. This discussion has already taken place, why is it being repeated?

It's sourced from "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos", I don't know why you are saying it's simulated?

 

[AnthrogenicaMember]

Are the heatmaps available to use for free online?
Edit: nevermind, it's not free and it's useless. It only includes Europe.

If you are open to reconsidering how "useless" it is I'm more than willing to share a download link with you You're the second to ask for more coverage though.

I wanted to add at least North Africa but the SVG map I'm using has Morocco broken up into regions in a way I don't understand, I can't find matching regions on Wikipedia. It's pretty tedious to identify every country's regions, and then find G25 coordinates that correspond to them.

What would be the most important countries to add first, regarding this thread?

The Levant?

 

[Pax Augusta]

It's sourced from "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos", I don't know why you are saying it's simulated?

Because there are no academic samples realeased so far from Emilia-Romagna. So it can be no more than a simulated average. Not to mention the fact that "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos" is nothing but amateur and hobbyst stuff.

 

[eupator]

Because there are no academic samples realeased so far from Emilia-Romagna. So it can be no more than a simulated average. Not to mention the fact that "3055 Ancient and Modern G25 Scaled calculator by Michalis Moriopoulos" is nothing but amateur and hobbyst stuff.

Correct, most of his Greek stuff are from random internet acquittances, more often than not with very poor and vague oral family tradition, that also have an intra-familial bias projected around them (expat/migrant communities in the diaspora with high levels of intra-marriage within their communities, etc.).

They are also the inventors of the "East Med" ancestral cluster of theirs, so they make sure their sampling protects their "unbroken 'East Med' continuity" (lol, Crete).

 

[Pax Augusta]

Correct, most of his Greek stuff are from random internet acquittances, more often than not with very poor and vague oral family tradition, that also have an intra-familial bias projected around them (expat/migrant communities in the diaspora with high levels of intra-marriage within their communities, etc.).

They are also the inventors of the "East Med" ancestral cluster of theirs, so they make sure their sampling protects their "unbroken 'East Med' continuity" (lol, Crete).

Worth mentioning, that even academic scientific samples can be inaccurate. There is a whole set labeled Greek Macedonia that ends with Bulgarians, just as an example, and far from the other Greek sample sets. Just about almost everywhere in the academic sample sets you find outliers, which regardless of their accuracy should be statistically removed. But some of the outliers stray so far from the main cluster that it may not be dependent on individual variation but depends on the fact that their ancestry is not fully in line with the group under which they were labeled.


As for the many inventions in that forum, it is really funny that every time ancient DNA analysis proves them wrong they casually pretend that nothing happened, and move on to come up with new ones.

 

[Jovialis]

I am fascinated by the fact that I get a good fit with Cetina + Mycenaean. Both of those cultures were in my part of Italy.

 

[Jovialis]

Nevertheless, I still get a better fit if using a two way with Minoan and Yamnaya. Which parallels adjacent regions like Greece and Albania, who are a mix of Yamnaya and Balkan/Greece_N people. We have to wait and see what Southern_Italian_N, or Apulia_N looks like.

 

[Hawk]

What language did the Ancient Sicilians speak before the coming of Greek colonizers?

Was it some sort of IE, EEF?

 

[Pax Augusta]

What language did the Ancient Sicilians speak before the coming of Greek colonizers?

Was it some sort of IE, EEF?

Sicily was inhabited by at least three different populations before the arrival of Greek colonists: Elymians, Sicani and Sicels.

 

[Francesco]

Sicily was inhabited by at least three different populations before the arrival of Greek colonists: Elymians, Sicani and Sicels.

If I'm not mistaken, Sicels spoke a language of the same branch of latin. Even the latin mythology hands down a supposedly closeness (if not kinship) with Sicels, since they inhabited Latium before latins themselves.

Also for Elymnians, the most modern theory hypothesize a kinship with latin branch, while Sicani are believed to have spoken a non IE language. For these two people, anyway, I believe we have very few attestations of a written language, so i guess it's difficult to formulate a solid historical linguistic hypothesis.

 

[Francesco]

I am fascinated by the fact that I get a good fit with Cetina + Mycenaean. Both of those cultures were in my part of Italy.

Maybe HRV_Cetina_BA could be a good proxy for:

a) the early proto italic tribes who inhabited the balkans before moving in to Italy (wich could have had low WHG ancestry and a bit of CHG excess);
b) the mix of proto italic and the autoctonous pre IE inhabitant of southern Italy, whic were minoan-like.

a) and b) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

 

[Pax Augusta]

Maybe HRV_Cetina_BA could be a good proxy for:

a) the early proto italic tribes who inhabited the balkans before moving in to Italy (wich could have had low WHG ancestry and a bit of CHG excess);
b) the mix of proto italic and the autoctonous pre IE inhabitant of southern Italy, whic were minoan-like.

a) and b) aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Which Italics are we talking about?

The analysed Latins are still too few, but from their uniparental markers the linguistic ancestors of the Latins did not come from the Balkans.

As far as speakers of Osco-Umbrian languages are concerned, there are no samples analysed yet. If the Italo-Celtic theory is true, their linguistic ancestors came from the Bell Beaker/Corded culture as well, as it's in the case likely of the Latino-Faliscan speakers. It is possible that the Venetics are also linguistically related to these migrations. Most probably also the IE-speaking migrations in the Etruscans.

Then, of course, as admitted by archaeologists, in some Italic peoples probably also came small groups from the Balkans. Certainly in the Picenes. But also in others. The two J2b-L283 found in the Etruscans may be part of these small movements (also supported by archaeology).

Based on statements by geneticists, samples of Samnites from Campania turned out to be autosomal DNA similar to Latins and Etruscans. We know nothing about their possible Y-DNAs.

It is not yet clear, but HRV_Cetina_BA seems to be related to the later Balkan ethnic groups. Perhaps the northern Balkans functioned as a corridor and small groups arrived in Italy as early as the Bronze Age. Contacts between archaeological cultures in Italy and the Cetina culture are attested.

 

[Francesco]

Which Italics are we talking about?
The analysed Latins are still too few, but from their uniparental markers the linguistic ancestors of the Latins did not come from the Balkans.

I didn't have specifically in mind any of the two italic branches. I knew the proto-italic uremaith is supposedly located in what is now Hungary, so maybe - but this is just an (un)educated guess - they could have been autosomically similar, or at least comparable, to other bronze age Balkan population (Hungary is not quite located in the Balkans, but it's pretty close nonetheless).

Of course, since if I understood correctly Jovialis is from Puglia, it's also plausible that there were direct contacts with a dalmatian population, without the influence of any italic tribe (even if contacts with oscan tribes are attested at least in northern Puglia).

 

[torzio]

I didn't have specifically in mind any of the two italic branches. I knew the proto-italic uremaith is supposedly located in what is now Hungary, so maybe - but this is just an (un)educated guess - they could have been autosomically similar, or at least comparable, to other bronze age Balkan population (Hungary is not quite located in the Balkans, but it's pretty close nonetheless).

Of course, since if I understood correctly Jovialis is from Puglia, it's also plausible that there were direct contacts with a dalmatian population, without the influence of any italic tribe (even if contacts with oscan tribes are attested at least in northern Puglia).

every Italian on the adriatic side , who can trace their line would have "illyrian" connections

the Adriatic is too small to be a barrier even in ancient times