Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?
Who said anything about that ?
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Since when is a PCA the best tool to use to measure closeness between different populations?
You can find a list of the ancients here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UrhcfNMLW0oMXIbHGUE60v2taCM7PFw1/view
Here is the list of modern averages: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y/view
Samples
Code:MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311 MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381,0.134311,0.151314,0.026776,-0.031331,0.028928,-0.000837,-0.000235,-0.003231,0.006749,0.04319,0.000162,-3e-04,-0.015758,0.005092,-0.009365,-0.006364,0.00678,0.00152,0.006285,0.001751,-0.009358,0.001731,0.003821,-0.003133,0.012334 MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112,0.12862,0.142174,0.026398,-0.012597,0.035083,-0.011992,-0.00188,0.000923,0.00225,0.025331,-0.000325,0.009292,-0.013974,-0.015138,-0.00475,0.011403,0.017993,0.007348,0.005279,-0.008754,-0.001996,-0.01014,-0.001725,0.000843,-0.008861 MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383,0.12862,0.149283,0.025267,-0.018734,0.030159,-0.009482,0.003525,-0.004154,0.002454,0.031709,-0.005359,0.013188,-0.020812,-0.017065,-0.012893,0.007823,0.024251,0.007728,0.007165,0.00075,-0.00836,-0.00136,-0.001725,0.009158,-0.005269 MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390,0.126344,0.153345,0.022627,-0.023256,0.031083,-0.010319,-0.002585,-0.006,0.008795,0.027518,0.001461,0.007643,-0.015015,0.00289,-0.00855,-0.01538,-0.009909,-0.001267,0.003017,-0.02001,-0.012603,0.005193,0.006409,0.005663,-0.005149 MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391,0.120652,0.159438,0.01697,-0.025194,0.028621,-0.016733,-0.00799,-0.006923,0.008999,0.033167,0,0.004346,-0.008622,0.008395,-0.014115,-0.0179,-0.007302,0.004181,0.008673,-0.013256,-0.010856,0.00272,-0.002588,0.005061,0.001317 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384,0.125205,0.156392,0.026398,-0.010013,0.026774,-0.004183,0.002115,-0.003923,0.006954,0.025331,0.001299,0.006894,-0.014123,-0.005918,-0.012758,-0.00053,0.004824,0.002787,0.005028,-0.014257,-0.015223,-0.000371,-0.00986,0.003615,-0.006706 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385,0.124067,0.148267,0.02489,-0.009367,0.022158,0,-0.00517,-0.002769,-0.008181,0.021322,0.006496,0.008692,-0.018731,-0.000963,-0.001357,-0.009016,-0.009518,0.004687,0.001634,-0.01038,-0.011729,0.005688,-0.001479,0.001928,0.005389 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387,0.113823,0.157407,0.017348,-0.020672,0.031083,-0.005299,-0.011986,0.001615,-0.000409,0.045923,0.003897,0.004196,-0.025272,-0.00812,-0.017372,-0.004641,-0.005607,0.004307,0.017095,-0.012381,-0.010981,0.006677,-0.002342,0.01205,-0.003473 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388,0.126344,0.157407,0.019987,-0.019703,0.029236,-0.009761,0.001645,-0.005538,0.006749,0.031162,0.004384,0.008992,-0.014569,-0.004266,-0.013436,-0.004641,0.002347,0.001014,0.008547,-0.012131,-0.012728,0.006925,0.0053,0.011447,-0.005628 MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389,0.124067,0.147252,0.02753,-0.007106,0.013233,-0.01255,0.004935,-0.006231,-0.002045,0.012574,0.012991,0.002847,-0.011744,-0.0139,-0.008415,0.002917,0.01369,0.009628,0.007416,0.001376,-0.017095,0.023494,-0.000123,0.0194,-0.002634 MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233,0.119514,0.157407,0.010559,-0.045543,0.030775,-0.013666,-0.000235,0.000923,0.011862,0.04155,0.006658,0.01154,-0.020367,-0.008808,-0.033659,-0.01127,0.009388,0.000253,0.011439,-0.01138,-0.009982,0.013602,-0.005669,0.004458,-0.005269
Closest modern averages
Code:Distance to: MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10379 0.04160790 Greek_Corinthia 0.04209242 Italian_Umbria 0.04293713 Italian_Tuscany 0.04331874 Albanian 0.04350649 French_Corsica 0.04363560 Greek_Achaea 0.04382362 Greek_Argolis 0.04386982 Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.04493594 Greek_Peloponnese 0.04494455 Italian_Piedmont Distance to: MKD_Skopje_Anc:I10381 0.03504228 French_Corsica 0.03818658 Italian_Lombardy 0.03870528 Italian_Bergamo 0.03948887 Italian_Piedmont 0.03986299 Italian_Tuscany 0.04137620 Italian_Umbria 0.04242321 Greek_Thessaly 0.04266998 Swiss_Italian 0.04275243 Italian_Veneto 0.04287049 Italian_Marche Distance to: MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I8112 0.03277776 Italian_Veneto 0.03282563 Swiss_Italian 0.03394397 Italian_Piedmont 0.03503558 Italian_Bergamo 0.03530438 French_Corsica 0.03569553 Italian_Tuscany 0.03617877 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.03898551 Italian_Northeast 0.03908354 Italian_Aosta_Valley 0.03979649 Spanish_Baleares Distance to: MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10383 0.03758136 French_Corsica 0.03813145 Italian_Tuscany 0.03888043 Italian_Piedmont 0.03998897 Swiss_Italian 0.04010991 Italian_Bergamo 0.04024820 Italian_Veneto 0.04093217 Italian_Umbria 0.04426290 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.04493292 Italian_Lombardy 0.04603390 Albanian Distance to: MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10390 0.02979567 Italian_Lombardy 0.03365491 Italian_Piedmont 0.03519821 Greek_Thessaly 0.03525994 Italian_Bergamo 0.03596028 Italian_Tuscany 0.03652714 Italian_Marche 0.03657377 French_Corsica 0.03744124 Italian_Liguria 0.04032554 Italian_Veneto 0.04073644 Albanian Distance to: MKD_Southeast_Valandovo_Anc:I10391 0.03637200 Italian_Marche 0.03665969 Italian_Lombardy 0.03718366 French_Corsica 0.03749688 Greek_Thessaly 0.03754515 Italian_Tuscany 0.03867890 Italian_Piedmont 0.03900322 Greek_Messenia 0.03952154 Greek_Arcadia 0.03992825 Greek_Argolis 0.04068889 Italian_Umbria Distance to: MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10384 0.02658953 Italian_Bergamo 0.02665376 Italian_Piedmont 0.02815767 Italian_Veneto 0.03148070 Italian_Tuscany 0.03157290 Italian_Lombardy 0.03218132 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.03292243 French_Corsica 0.03316853 Swiss_Italian 0.03421080 Italian_Northeast 0.03444028 Greek_Thessaly Distance to: MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10385 0.03102428 Italian_Lombardy 0.03106331 Italian_Piedmont 0.03257605 Greek_Thessaly 0.03430976 Italian_Bergamo 0.03548999 Italian_Veneto 0.03595776 Italian_Tuscany 0.03600791 Italian_Liguria 0.03727806 Swiss_Italian 0.03776131 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige 0.03849048 Italian_Northeast Distance to: MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10387 0.04172449 French_Corsica 0.04315419 Italian_Tuscany 0.04317575 Italian_Lombardy 0.04376980 Italian_Bergamo 0.04486060 Italian_Piedmont 0.04673105 Italian_Umbria 0.04761407 Italian_Marche 0.04809777 Greek_Thessaly 0.04835839 Italian_Lazio 0.04992830 Italian_Liguria Distance to: MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10388 0.02865295 Italian_Piedmont 0.02881542 Italian_Tuscany 0.03067725 French_Corsica 0.03111068 Italian_Lombardy 0.03150509 Italian_Bergamo 0.03239027 Greek_Thessaly 0.03339795 Italian_Marche 0.03390751 Italian_Umbria 0.03504262 Albanian 0.03513450 Italian_Veneto Distance to: MKD_Southwest_Ohrid_Anc:I10389 0.04745656 Italian_Piedmont 0.04809294 Italian_Tuscany 0.04818109 Greek_Central_Macedonia 0.04856204 Swiss_Italian 0.04872707 Greek_Thessaly 0.04898417 Albanian 0.04912564 Rumelia_East 0.05038593 Italian_Veneto 0.05127101 Italian_Northeast 0.05157051 Greek_West_Taygetos Distance to: MKD_Vardar_Gradsko_Anc:I7233 0.04803218 Italian_Lazio 0.04830066 French_Corsica 0.05103187 Italian_Molise 0.05128321 Italian_Umbria 0.05182249 Italian_Apulia 0.05211776 Italian_Marche 0.05213577 Italian_Abruzzo 0.05261011 Italian_Tuscany 0.05314765 Italian_Basilicata 0.05322605 Greek_Corinthia
So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...
So none of the ancient North Macedonian samples are close to modern North Macedonians? Hmmmmmmm...
Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century.
I got this reply from Bruzmi in AnthrogenicaEven more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
(this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)
Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
0.05240272 Macedonian
0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)
In the end, we should revive the legend the Mathia (todays Mat region in Albania) is related to the Ancient Macedonians. And todays matians being the core of Albanians. Matzinger at the end is not that off-road.
Kelmendasi said:As a side note, the Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite sample should really be removed or included into one of the other Albanian groups. It is based on a single sample from a rather suspicious and problematic individual (responsible for some questionable posts and trolling) from another forum whose entire ancestry was not entirely clear. The inclusion of his alleged religious affiliation in the label is also a little odd in my opinion.
Still Bruzmi in AnthrogenicaIs the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.
Well, it is a pity that the work of first Albanian ethnographer Rrok Zojzi (1910-1995) is not present that much in the main literature. His collection of old poems and tales inherited for centuries would be a treasure, especially in this era of DNA comparison, including the mentioning of the Alexander the Great in those poems and tales.Is the Mirdite average simulated? If I remember correctly, it consists of only 1 sample and is not reliable.
Even more interesting is that these IA North Macedonians are closer to modern-day Macedonian Greeks than to Mycenaeans or even IA Bulgarians.
(this does not imply that there was no significant population replacement or mixing in Macedonia, there certainly was)
Distance to: MKD_IA_(N=12)
0.03441053 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03657688 Greek_Macedonia
0.04492735 BGR_IA_(N=9)
0.05240272 Macedonian
0.05809959 GRC_Mycenaean_(N=15)
[COLOR=#3E3E3E said:1337_[/COLOR]]Why would they be ? Macedonia was invaded by Bulgarians in 900 AD.
I wonder how much Slavic influence Greek Macedonia has ? I expect samples in actual Greek Macedonia to possibly be like IA Thracians or something between these samples and IA Thracians.
Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.It is possible that many of the native people of North Macedonia (former Paeonia) fled South during the Slavic invasions. Looking for refuge closer to the Greek world and the Aegean. It makes sense, because the people living there were already Greek Orthodox Christians and part of the Greek world, while the newcomers were not.
Keep in mind that even Greek Macedonia constitutes a region larger than original habitat of the Ancient Macedonians. The Macedonians settled among other Greek tribes as well as Thracian/Paeonian tribes. They expelled them and created their first kingdom. Then, later on, Phillip expanded the kingdom and incorporated other regions absorbing other Greek tribes (Mollosians, Thessalians) as well as Thracian tribes. So Macedonia during Phillip would be from encopasse Mycenaean-like to IA Thracian-like individuals. Basically they would plot just a bit North of Mycenaeans.
Why would you look for such interpretation when even Greek Macedonia was not so much foreign for Slavic speakers you have tribes as Drougobitai,Sagudates,Rhynchinoi that were living around in Greek Macedonia in 7th century.Let aside modern day period.And present day North Macedonia and Greek Macedonia are very close genetically even with all the Pontic refugees that arrived there.
Is there a way of estimating Slavic admixture in Macedonian Slavs if we compare IA North Macedonia to Macedonian Slavs?
The Thracian ancestry outweighs the Illyrian/Paonian-ancestry in both South-Western Slavs and Slavic Macedonians when modeling. Similarly how E-V13 outweighs J2b. This can be explain with:
1.) Roman genocide and Daco-Thracian related population movement.
2.) Slavic tribes absorbed some E-V13 lines and their autosomal impact during their road before making permanent settlements.
3.) Or a mixture of both scenarios.
Definitely would like to see more Italic samples processed from various tribes, particularly the Oscans. If they're shifted a bit from Protovillanovan (R1) who is similar to Cetina, that you could easily bracket modern Apulians, and myself with Myceneans.
Distance to: | Anthony_C_scaled |
---|---|
0.02880945 | GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02 |
0.03118023 | MKD_Anc:I10391___female___BC_300___Coverage_66.29% |
0.03328139 | MKD_BA:I7231___R-CTS7556___BC_1219___Coverage_72.93% |
0.03329729 | MKD_Anc:I10388___J-Y13128___BC_708___Coverage_67.44% |
0.03407186 | MKD_Anc:I10390___G-Z6494___BC_393___Coverage_67.94% |
0.03898782 | ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14692___female___BC_950___Coverage_69.46% |
0.03966204 | MKD_Anc:I10385___female___BC_641___Coverage_69.29% |
0.04203850 | ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14688___R-L51___BC_500___Coverage_66.52% |
0.04217829 | MKD_Anc:I10381___C-V86___BC_636___Coverage_22.20% |
0.04225267 | GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04 |
0.04365851 | MKD_Anc:I10384___J-Y13128___BC_600___Coverage_65.57% |
0.04384365 | ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16251___R-M269___BC_550___Coverage_36.88% |
0.04616448 | MKD_Anc:I10387___female___BC_600___Coverage_43.99% |
0.04792661 | ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14690___R-CTS1450___BC_1050___Coverage_65.05% |
0.05081105 | ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I16253___J-Y21878___BC_476___Coverage_33.12% |
0.05129287 | MKD_Anc:I7233___female___BC_850___Coverage_74.59% |
0.05145260 | MKD_Anc:I10379___female___BC_641___Coverage_66.02% |
0.05351353 | GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13514___female___BC_1215___Coverage_76.28% |
0.05373817 | GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368___female___BC_1010___Coverage_10.73% |
0.05438663 | MKD_Anc_outlier2:I10167___R-M269___BC_121___Coverage_12.67% |
0.05518335 | MKD_Anc:I8112___R-CTS1450___BC_664___Coverage_70.53% |
0.05540831 | MKD_Anc:I10383___female___BC_657___Coverage_67.48% |
0.05545206 | GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577___G-Z7016___BC_1250___Coverage_24.67% |
0.05663489 | MKD_Anc:I10389___female___BC_600___Coverage_15.50% |
0.06017545 | GRC_Mycenaean:I9033 |
That would make southern italic tribes similar to the Crete Armenoi sample. A similar scenario makes sense, imho (minoan-like substratum+more steppe ancestry than bronze age aegean populations). Modern southern italian would largely plot between them and Mycenaeans/Iron age Greeks.
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