The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[Silesian]

No, there are just some R1b samples in the northwest of Iran and Armenia that all of them seem to be Urartians.

I would be interested how you came to your conclusion. Can you at least give a breakdown defining snps with rough dating between Uratian and Iranian samples.

 

[Palermo Trapani]

The "Beakers" with no steppe are the Iberian ones. The R1b bearing people who went to Britain, France, Iberia, and Italy were half steppe and half local European farmers of the LN/Chl whom they absorbed as they exited the steppe. They merely adopted the "Beakers" or "cups", along with wrist guards etc.

This caused confusion for years.

To simplify it drastically, what may be the case is that there were two groups of steppe people who exited the steppe perhaps at around the same time and from approximately the same area, with one group carrying R1a whose local women made cups decorated with a cord and became the "Corded Ware" group, and one group carrying R1b who adopted the "Beaker" cups. The R1a carrying group may originally have had more EHG than the R1b carrying group.

It may actually just be that simple.

Angela: Yes, it in the Iberian Beakers where you find zero Steppe per the Supplements I reviewed last night. You are correct. There are some Iberian Beakers with Steppe, not to the level you find in the British Isles where some were 60-70% Steppe. Here is Table S4 from Olade et al 2018 Supplement (pp.167-168). The 4 highlighted are the 3 Northern Italians from Emilia and the Sicilian Bell Beaker. There are 2 other Sicilian Beakers included in the analysis that had mtdna haplogroups (I4933 with ROa I think it is and I4936 with K1a)

The German Corded Ware in the Olade et al 2018 models are 70% Steppe. Lots of variation in the Beaker samples

 

[Silesian]

That may be the case. Anyway, I did not assert or allude that Davidski was the first or only guy who made this suggestion, to begin with. Moreover, the fact that this theory was popular before 2017 doesn't change the fact that some years ago he did propose Bell Beaker being a subgroup of Corded Ware. Plus, I'm well aware of the things Davidski got completely wrong.

I would really like to see a side by side comparison of dates with corresponding snps to see the movement of R1a versus R1b. When I have some time. Oldest R1a all branches versus R1b L51/z2103. In Yamnaya (akaTurganik Dom2) Afanasievo,CordedWare(aka horseless Ware), Bell Beaker, Latins, Albanians, Macedonians, Armenians, Greeks,Iranians, Scythians,Sarmatians.

 

[Bergin]

I would really like to see a side by side comparison of dates with corresponding snps to see the movement of R1a versus R1b. When I have some time. Oldest R1a all branches versus R1b L51/z2103. In Yamnaya (akaTurganik Dom2) Afanasievo,CordedWare(aka horseless Ware), Bell Beaker, Latins, Albanians, Macedonians, Armenians, Greeks,Iranians, Scythians,Sarmatians.

"We observe that, on the steppe, R-M12149
Y chromosomes (within haplogroup R1b) at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE,
associated with the Yamnaya, were replaced
by the beginning of the next millennium by
R-Z93 Y chromosomes (within haplogroup
R1a), associated with Corded Ware/Fatianovo
(35) steppe descendants such as those of the
Sintashta culture (34). Genetic data cannot dis-
tinguish whether this Y-chromosome replace-
ment was the result of competition between
patrilineal groups from the steppe, one of
which may have had cultural adaptations such
as usage of an improved variety of domesti-
cated horse (37), or whether one group simply
filled an ecological niche vacated by earlier
groups. A fuller understanding of the reason for
this profound genetic change requires combined
analysis of genetic and archaeological data."

-this is how your question is partially addressed in the new paper.

 

[enter_tain]

Many of these Illyrian samples are not even close to Myceneans. Even in Northern Albania there are samples that cluster like Northern Italian, Kosovo Albanian etc.

Maybe in Central and Southern Albania they clustered like Greeks and some Central / Southern Albanians , certainly does not seem to apply for entire Illyrian area in Albania nor the Albanian genetic cluster. There are many Albanians who are not even cluse to Myceneans nor Greeks genetically, actually Albanians on average are more north.

You've got to let go your obsession with "Myceneans". I simply used "Mycenean-like" as an example of an EEF-heavy group, which the authors themselves admit. I never said Illyrians = Myceneans.

"If you look at Croatian IA and Helladic MBA they are very similar and more Eastern-European like. This is obviously less EEF-admixed populations.

When they got to the Balkans, they mixed with EEF-heavy populations, and became more "Mycenean-like. Then more Slavic admixture in the Middle Ages increase the steppe ancestry/EE-like admixture."

Autosomally I compared southern Illyrians to Macedonians/Epirotes. That's what I put on the chart.

 

[Silesian]

"We observe that, on the steppe, R-M12149
Y chromosomes (within haplogroup R1b) at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE,
associated with the Yamnaya, were replaced
by the beginning of the next millennium by
R-Z93 Y chromosomes (within haplogroup
R1a), associated with Corded Ware/Fatianovo
(35) steppe descendants such as those of the
Sintashta culture (34). Genetic data cannot dis-
tinguish whether this Y-chromosome replace-
ment was the result of competition between
patrilineal groups from the steppe, one of
which may have had cultural adaptations such
as usage of an improved variety of domesti-
cated horse (37), or whether one group simply
filled an ecological niche vacated by earlier
groups. A fuller understanding of the reason for
this profound genetic change requires combined
analysis of genetic and archaeological data."
-this is how your question is partially addressed in the new paper.

Well that's not true is it. Yamnaya were z2108-kms 67. We know that there are more R1b-z2110 in modern day Ossetians than R1a-Z93. I'm waiting for the results of z93 in early Iran from the Iranian poster. Also have you seen the maps Maciamo did R1a-93 is displaced not only from there earliest homelands but from most of Corded Ware(horseless Ware)and Bell Beakers, in other words Europe. To compound the matter you have R1b-Yamnaya burried in Potopovka and Sintashta burial plots. Sintashta was a heavily fortified settlement. The R1a-93 descendants have been mostly replaced by the original R1b--kms67 and R1b 73 lines.

 

[Angela]

"We observe that, on the steppe, R-M12149
Y chromosomes (within haplogroup R1b) at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BCE,
associated with the Yamnaya, were replaced
by the beginning of the next millennium by
R-Z93 Y chromosomes (within haplogroup
R1a), associated with Corded Ware/Fatianovo
(35) steppe descendants such as those of the
Sintashta culture (34). Genetic data cannot dis-
tinguish whether this Y-chromosome replace-
ment was the result of competition between
patrilineal groups from the steppe, one of
which may have had cultural adaptations such
as usage of an improved variety of domesti-
cated horse (37), or whether one group simply
filled an ecological niche vacated by earlier
groups. A fuller understanding of the reason for
this profound genetic change requires combined
analysis of genetic and archaeological data."
-this is how your question is partially addressed in the new paper.

I think in one of the papers it is proposed that this "displacement" from the steppe by R1a Z93 "might be" one of the reasons that the R1b Z2103 people went south through the Caucasus to Armenia etc. It may also be what caused some of it to go down through the Balkans ultimately to Greece and beyond.

Of course, eventually, all of the R1a Z93 was "displaced" as well, but by Central Asian groups.

The steppe was the death of countless male lineages. Don't see how people can doubt what a violent place it was.

The R1b and R1a of the Italo-Celtic, Germanic, and Balto-Slavic language groups are, of course, not part of that story.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Davidski proposes that "this" R1b was somehow a "subordinate" lineage of Corded Ware. Perhaps that's correct or perhaps it's not. I don't know how you would prove that based on a few men with R1b being part of a Corded Ware group.

Regardless, I don't see how it matters in any "emotional" sense, although in the interests of full disclosure, my father and probably every male in his family tree was R1b U-152.

 

[Silesian]

try to remember that twitter IS NOT Science magazine. Linguistically speaking (not my area though) it might have been better stated that: Armenian, Albanian and Greek languages are not linked to the Corded Ware, while Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages are somewhat related to the Corded Ware.

The problem is there's nothing in terms of ydna and or autosomally to connect any branch of R1a with Anatolian (Hittite)and or Tocharian languages and geographic regions. Probably explains why we don't see the earliest attested Dom2 horses/long distance wagons in there general burials.

 

[enter_tain]

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of Y-DNA by both academics and posters. Which subclade becomes popular later on is irrelevant. What matters is if the proto-population carried all those subclades. L51 comes from Yamnaya (a close sibling to Z2103), yet we have 0 L51s in the steppe. But who cares?

The smaller the populations = the more wild the Y-DNA variations. Guess what? They didn't live in 2022 with 8 billion people. We're talking about people numbering in the thousands. As long as there are no ENTIRELY DIFFERENT groups of Y-DNA popping up, Yamnaya should be R1b-M269 and that's it. No point in discussing Z2103/L51, etc... Yamna had all M269/Z2103/L51. Some clades popular in one place. Some in another. They're all descendant from the same people.

 

[Hawk]

I think there is a fundamental lack of understanding of Y-DNA by both academics and posters. Which subclade becomes popular later on is irrelevant. What matters is if the proto-population carried all those subclades. L51 comes from Yamnaya (a close sibling to Z2103), yet we have 0 L51s in the steppe. But who cares?

The smaller the populations = the more wild the Y-DNA variations. Guess what? They didn't live in 2022 with 8 billion people. We're talking about people numbering in the thousands. As long as there are no ENTIRELY DIFFERENT groups of Y-DNA popping up, Yamnaya should be R1b-M269 and that's it. No point in discussing Z2103/L51, etc... Yamna had all M269/Z2103/L51. Some clades popular in one place. Some in another. They're all descendant from the same people.

Wow, we didn't know that Captain Obvious.

 

[Silesian]

Comparing R1b-Z2103 to R1a-Z93 on the Steppe and in the Arc now that we have ancient samples and modern day populations.

In 2018, a genetic study of the earlier Srubnaya culture, and later peoples of the Scythian cultures, including the Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, was published in Science Advances. Six males from two sites ascribed to the Srubnaya culture were analysed, and were all found to possess haplogroup R1a1a1. Cimmerian, Sarmatian and Scythian males were however found have mostly haplogroup R1b1a1a2, although one Sarmatian male carried haplogroup R1a1a1. The authors of the study suggested that rather than being ancestral to the Scythians, the Srubnaya shared with them a common origin from the earlier Yamnaya culture.^[6]

 

[kingjohn]

i was interested to know how many ancient males they tested in this paper
so i counted the number of them from er monnezza post in page 2

north macedonia- 10

bulgaria-25

iran -20

greece-15

albania-17

romania-32

armenia- 92

croatia-37

turkey -85

montenegro-10

moldova-9

iraq- 4

serbia -5

cyprus-4

jordan-1

bosnia-1

total = 367 males



p.s
in turkey and armenia the number is large nice
but in cyprus and iraq only 4 ancient males each they could have done better job

 

[1337_]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture



Got this on wiki but I will be reading some books on this from now on.

 

[Angela]

One or more of the Bulgaria/Thracian samples were "Mycenaean like". Were they the ones who carried E-V13. Were they also the ones who were subjected to ritual sacrifice? Does that sound like they were part of the incoming Thracian speakers or more likely locals?

 

[Hawk]

One or more of the Bulgaria/Thracian samples were "Mycenaean like". Were they the ones who carried E-V13. Were they also the ones who were subjected to ritual sacrifice? Does that sound like they were part of the incoming Thracian speakers or more likely locals?

They were newcomers from Southern Pannonia, the Bronze Age ancestral culture is called Dubovac Zuto Brdo/Grla Mara (there is archaeological evidence these people migrated in Greece as well during the transitional period (Eastern Greece) and were responsible for the introduction of cremation burials) and it's cousin culture with Vatin Culture. They are classified as Eastern Urnfielder Cultures or Balkan-Carpathian Cultural Complex and to their north they were related to their cousin culture, Gava Culture. A very striking cultural trait of them is the cult of water birds, the Dupljalja chariot, cremation burials in urns.

You can read more about Bronze Age/Iron Age Balkans from Draga Garasanin, it's an excellent article, one of the best: https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dgarasanin-the_bronze.htm

Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 samples belong to Psenicevo Culture

In the above survey, we have tried to offer, on the basis of the available archaeological material, a picture of the Bronze Age and its cultural and chronological development during the centuries that this important period in prehistory belongs to. The distinction between cultural areas, depends to a great deal on the geographic and topographic character of the land, and indicates the basis for finer distinctions of the written sources that pertain to the Paleobalkan peoples. It is very important, that during the whole Bronze Age a continuity can be followed that extends to the period of transition into the Iron Age. This is characteristic of all the cultural groups of this area, including the Dubovac-Zuto Brdo, which in Oltenia is followed by the Insula Banului group and later the Bassarabi group in these parts and Transylvania (compare also some of the finds from Saraorci near Smederevo). In Thrace at this time we have the appearance of the new group, the so called Psenicevo which kept close contacts with the peoples of the Morava Lands area as can be seen from the finds in the Mediana group. It can also be noticed that the people, who during this period lived in the Morava Lands area took part if only partially in the movements attributed to the so called Aegean Migration. In this manner, the Bronze Age evolves as a very important stage in the process of formation of the Paleobalkan peoples, their ethnogenesis, and the historical events that have left their imprint, in a sense on the historical evolution of the old Balkans. Until now, enough attention has not been paid to this very important period in the ancient history of southeastern Europe except among the small circle of interested specialists. It is the purpose of this exhibition, to try and fulfill this gap, and offer a more understanding picture of this, not too well known period. We shall be very pleased if this exhibition and this short accompanying survey helped in any way to achieve this aim.

Just as renowned Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony explained:

By the end of the Late Bronze Age, the people of the Gáva culture, who buried cremated remains in urns, and related groups had expanded their domain. Their settlements and burial places are found not only in Transylvania, but also in the Banat, in areas east of the Tisza, and, east of the Carpathians, in Galicia and Bessarabia (Holihrad and Kisinyov cultures). Some of their groups travelled across the wooded steppes as far as the Dnieper River. Judging from the material evidence, peoples who lived at this time south of {1-36.} the Carpathians, in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria, spoke a language related to that of the Gáva culture (Babadag and Pšeničevo cultures). This region is roughly contiguous with the subsequent settlement areas of the Dacians, Gaetians, and Mysians.

https://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/9.html

 

[Ricardo]

More Iranian and Indo-European Y-DNA J1

[COLOR=var(--primary-text)]One of the most important results in the ARC paper is I4097_all IRN_Hasanlu_LBA_A Cluster 1425-1284 calBCE (3095±25 BP, PSUAMS-1948) https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abm4247

The Iranian J1 branch from Hasanlu I4097 is the same of BMAC-Gonur, Geoksyur and Mayemer-II, Eastern Kazakhstan.
I4097_all IRN_Hasanlu_LBA_A Cluster2.7.2.9.33 Brown Brown Dark Intermediate J-ZS6637 J1a2a1b1a~
J1>J-Z2215>J-Z2217>J-L620>J-PF4816>J-ZS6599>J-ZS6638>J-Y169874>J-ZS6592>ZS6637

J1 samples were found in Central Asia, The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia 25 :
- I1784; 2201-2031 BC; Gonur; Turkmenistan; BMAC; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592
- I12481; 3500-2800 BC; Geoksyur; Turkmenistan; Geoksyur_EN; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592
- I8504; 3092-2925 BC; Geoksyur; Turkmenistan; Geoksyur_EN; J1-L620>PF4816>ZS6599>ZS4428>ZS6592

And the same J1 lineage found in Eastern Kazakhstan. MMR001.A0101 Mayemer-II mound 1 7th-5th c. BCE Mayemer-II_600_BCE MMR001.A0101
- Mayemer-II mound 1 Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA Mayemer-II_600_BCE MMR001.out Kazakhstan -600 C4a1a4a J-M304
J1> M267> CTS12238> Z2217> L620> PF4832> ZS6599> ZS6602> ZS6592. Early Saka period Mayemer, on the left bank of the Narym River, in the Katonkaragai district of East Kazakhstan region

One of these Hasanlu samples looks to be an outlier migrant from Central Asia, and has a BMAC subclade ,the main Hasanlu cluster are not like this and this individual prefers a Steppe MLBA source. Possible Mitanni or early Iranic ?

Target: Hasanlu_I4097_all
Distance: 1.2639% / 0.01263948 | R3P
62.6 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
19.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
18.2 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA

Target: Hasanlu_I4097_all
Distance: 1.1517% / 0.01151679 | R4P
50.4 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA
24.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
18.2 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
6.6 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

1425-1284 calBCE (3095±25 BP, PSUAMS-1948)

Distance to: Hasanlu_I4097_all
0.03265890 MNG_TUK001:TUK001
0.05762061 Hasanlu_I6430
0.06053626 Hasanlu_I6432
0.06117189 Hasanlu_I6428
0.06220058 Hasanlu_I4269_all
0.06734644 Hasanlu_I4232_all
0.07167512 Hasanlu_I6431
0.07847426 Hasanlu_I4357
0.08817144 Hasanlu_I4280_all
0.08817453 Hasanlu_I6388
0.09095997 Hasanlu_I4353
0.09327439 Hasanlu_I4100_all
0.09495759 Hasanlu_I4355
0.09516835 Hasanlu_I4354
0.09741795 Hasanlu_I4099_all
0.10199630 Hasanlu_I4098
0.10288792 Hasanlu_I4233_all
0.10311437 Hasanlu_I4356
0.10640174 Hasanlu_I6429
0.10673581 Hasanlu_I4338

MNG_TUK001

Individual TUK001 (250–383 cal. CE), whose burial was an intrusion into an earlier Xiongnu cemetery, has the highest western Eurasian affinity. This ancestry is distinct from that of the Sarmatians and closer to ancient populations with BMAC/ Iranian-related ancestry
One individual in this study (TUK001) at the site of Tamiryn Ulaan Khoshuu (Burkhan Tolgoi) dates to the era of Xianbei power in Inner Asia; however, there is no cultural context that could affirm affiliation with the Xianbei or other groups of northeastern China. Instead, recent excavations at this site have yielded artifacts, such as pottery from the Kwarezm oasis cultures near the Aral Sea and coins of the Sassanian Persian empire, that indicate significant interactions with areas in Central Asia and much farther west. In the mid-fourth century, a large polity known as the Rouran purportedly took over all of Mongolia; however, there is little recorded history about the Rouran

TUK001(250-383 CE), the earliest early Medieval individual in our dataset from a Xiongnu site with a post-Xiongnu occupation, has the highest western Eurasian affinity. This individual is distinct from Sarmatians, and likely to be admixed between Sarmatians and populations with BMAC/Iranian-related ancestry

A Dynamic 6,000-Year Genetic History of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe Choongwon Jeong et al. 2020

So, I4097 Y-DNA J1-ZS6637 can be associated with the Indo-Aryan influence in MItanni, the nomadic Indo-Aryan elite, known as the Maryannu, settled in Mitanni and the Mitanni warriors were called marya and the Mitanni can be one of the ancestors of the "early Medes" from Iran.
The same Iranian population of Hasanlu_I4097_all, MNG_TUK001 and the ‘Well Lady’ (ALA019) from Alalakh

A Dynamic 6,000-Year Genetic History of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe Choongwon Jeong et al. 2020
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S...674(20)31321-0

"the so-called ‘Well Lady’ (ALA019), The case of the Well Lady (ALA019) Aside from the bulk of genetic data from Alalakh that suggests regional ties over many generations, there is one outstanding case of long-distance mobility. Individual ALA019 –the Well Lady–takes up an extreme outlier position in the PCA closest to sampled individuals from Bronze Age Iran/Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan/Afghanistan"

1550-1600 BC

Ingman T, Eisenmann S, Skourtanioti E, Akar M, Ilgner J, Gnecchi Ruscone GA, et al. (2021) Human mobility at Tell Atchana (Alalakh), Hatay, Turkey during the 2nd millennium BC: Integration of isotopic and genomic evidence. PLoS ONE 16(6): e0241883. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0241883

So, I4097 Y-DNA J1-ZS6637 can be associated with the Indo-Aryan influence in Mitanni, the nomadic Indo-Aryan elite, known as the Maryannu, settled in Mitanni and their warriors were called marya and the Mitanni can be one of the ancestors of the "early Medes" from Iran.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=var(--primary-text)][/COLOR]
[COLOR=var(--primary-text)]Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European populations have always the most ancient basal diversity of haplogroup J, specially J1 and the haplogroup J increase is that it accompanied the spread of Caucasus hunter-gatherer/Iranian ancestry.[/COLOR]

 

[Palermo Trapani]

1337 (Re Post 233): Razib has a great flow chart that takes what you found on wiki and provides more detail. I have linked it below


https://www.gnxp.com/

 

[1337_]

Posted by Lukas:

Distance to: HRV_IA_I3313
1.41428962 IT_Veneto
1.51111193 IT_Aosta
1.53241280 Albanian_Kosovo
1.53417027 Albanian_north
1.53700296 IT_Friuli
1.55188512 IT_Piedmont
1.58708565 Albanians_Montenegro
1.61639078 Albanians_FYROM
1.62339206 IT_Lombardia
1.64073982 IT_Trentino

Distance to: HRV_Cetina_BA:I11843
0.02479983 Albanian

Distance to: MKD_BA:I7231
0.02721903 Albanian


A Question: Trogir_Byz in Croatia are from Byzantine period ? They are almost all Greek like or Albanian like.


If anything many of these samples are quite diverse genetically . BA / IA Croatia samples even that cluster like French and Spanish ?

 

[Misnomer00]

Exciting samples. L1a of the swat valley IA kind at Hasanlu, lots of BMAC at Dinkha tepe. I have a nice post on this on my blog at a-genetics.blogspot.com
Plus Laziridis just tweeted that CHG ancestry in steppe is male mediated as There is more CHG on autosomal ancestry of Yamnaya than on X chromosome.

 

[Angela]

They were newcomers from Southern Pannonia, the Bronze Age ancestral culture is called Dubovac Zuto Brdo/Grla Mara (there is archaeological evidence these people migrated in Greece as well during the transitional period (Eastern Greece) and were responsible for the introduction of cremation burials) and it's cousin culture with Vatin Culture. They are classified as Eastern Urnfielder Cultures or Balkan-Carpathian Cultural Complex and to their north they were related to their cousin culture, Gava Culture. A very striking cultural trait of them is the cult of water birds, the Dupljalja chariot, cremation burials in urns.

You can read more about Bronze Age/Iron Age Balkans from Draga Garasanin, it's an excellent article, one of the best: https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dgarasanin-the_bronze.htm

Kapitan Andreevo E-V13 samples belong to Psenicevo Culture

Just as renowned Hungarian archaeologist Gabor Vekony explained:

Yes, it's very interesting and I intend to read up about it, but I'm not speaking about the incoming steppe admixed people. What I'm saying is what I've been saying for the last more than 5 years when we first heard about a Bulgarian sample which was "Tuscan" like. The authors of that paper picked "Tuscan like" because their only modern sources for comparison were from 1000 Genomes. Now, with more sophisticated analyses, we're told some of these Bulgarian samples were "Mycenaean like". Well, the amount of steppe in a lot of Mycenaeans ran from 0 to 3% to an average of 10%. The rest was Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iran Neo. That genetic profile could fit the farmers of Bulgaria, not these incomers. Doesn't it make more sense that someone you sacrifice would be from the people you conquered, not one of your own? That's certainly what Davidski thought at the time. Maybe for once he was right.

If this sacrificed sample was E-V13 then I think it's certainly possible that was a local farmer ancestry. Certainly makes sense to me given the close proximity to Anatolia and its lineages.