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Thread: The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    This is true. We often overlook that the IE expansion in Europe and Western Asia is a process that took millennia.
    I think it very much depended on the area. To the best of my recollection the movement into Central Europe and admixture on the way with the Neolithic communities right outside the steppe too place relatively quickly. Same would go for the sparsely populated Northeast and Britain.

    Then, if I remember the dates correctly there was almost a pause before the migration into the south and southeast, and I've often wondered if that had something to do with the plague effect as well as the necessity to consolidate and the fact that it was much easier to roll over flat territory where many of the Neolithic farmers had already died than to find one's way over mountains like the Alps and the Pyrenees. I can't remember who said it, but the point has been made that Ukraine, Poland, all the way into central Europe is perfect for tanks, so long as you don't try it during winter when you'll freeze or starve to death, or spring when you'll get mired in the mud.

    Then there's the issue as to whether it also involved the fact that some people left the steppe later and quickly arrived in new areas. The paper is positing that Greek and Albanian speakers came directly from Yamnaya, yes?

    The Middle East was much less affected. Beyond Armenia, it sort of petered out, yes, except for any influence by the Mitanni?


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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    I think it's one of those linguistic matters that, together with the Etruscan R1b, tell us that the IE hypothesis is much more complexed than originally thought.
    I thought about that as well, but from what i have heard (AFAIK Pax Augusta mentioned) Etruscan is usually considered as an Early European Farmer language extremely likely. So, G2a was present as well among them and i guess the original Proto-Tyrrhenian progenitors were of this lineage, considering also the Rhaetic connections from the Alps (where G2a seems to have survived in some decent numbers).

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    Oh, she's of Turkish origin, I thought she may have been German from the name.

    She's a co-author for "Proceed with Caution" for Global aDNA research guidelines along with this guy:



    name
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    Region: Turkey and the Balkans


    I’m Songül Alpaslan-Roodenberg. I am a paleo- and physical anthropologist of Turkish origin and live in the Netherlands. Turkey and the Balkans constitute my study area. I have examined many human skeletons from graves in archaeological excavations, especially in Turkey and Bulgaria.


    Less than 10 years ago ancient DNA analysis was not well known by archaeologists and museum staff. But those who came into contact with this subject responded positively. In those days the protocol of sample taking was simple: the approval of an archaeologist, anthropologist, and the concerned museum authorities was sufficient. But since the growing importance of DNA analysis attracted more and more people, the number of rules increased.


    As for Turkey, it is allowed to analyze ancient human remains in any domestic laboratory after following the procedures established by government institutions. However, if you want to have it done in a laboratory abroad, this procedure will take more time.


    In the last few years, I took human bone samples covering different periods and regions and we were successful in obtaining permissions by strictly following these rules. As a result, all the sampled material could be analyzed abroad/in the Reich Lab and we expect the results to be published soon.


    I think the general rules we propose in our article about ethics are also applicable to our region. In fact, they have already been applied.


    Actually, if I consider my own sampling region, the most important thing about permits is not the attitude of the official authorities, but the undesirable competition between laboratories. Instead of competing on this issue, I believe that collaborating in scientific projects will be more productive for everyone. I hope future sample projects will give us opportunities for better cooperation.

    https://hms.harvard.edu/news/proceeding-caution

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.
    Ohrid was Illyrian town , Skopje was most likely Illyrian. Where many of these samples found in Northern Macedonia are clearly not Ancient Macedonians but Illyrians. What are you even talking about ?

    Ohrid was inhabited by Illyrians:

    Lychnidus (Λυχνιδός, Λυχνίς, Lychnidós, Lychnís), Capital city of the Illyrian Dassaretae (→ Dassaretia) on the → via Egnatia (Str. 7,7,4; It. Ant. 318), modern Ohrid in Macedonia on Lake Ohrid.
    Paeonians were most likely Illyrians or Thracians.


    In what planet are some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia supposed to be Ancient Macedonians ?


    It's also interesting how Northern Macedonia has never been considered as a possible Albanian homeland ? Especially Skopje, Dibra area etc and South-Western parts of Kosovo around the Pashtrik mountains.

    Your obsessions are mostly with samples from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and Kosovo.

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    Unless you're saying Ancient Macedonians were related to Illyrians ?

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Thomas Olander (Cambridge University Press): The Indo European Language Family.

    A an open access book that examines Indo European languages. Currently, Lazaridis mentioned this book and cited it in one of his tweets indicating that Olander puts the Anatolian branch as splitting as early as 4400 BC. Here is the link, it is in PDF form and is free to download.

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...9408050F112A52

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    great book, will be useful in my research

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
    Ftdna path
    E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF196 2>M123>M34>L795>S11835>S12033>S11956>S11168>S10483 >BY96055

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Thanks for sharing. These are all? Why aren´t the other samples uploaded?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    Thanks for sharing. These are all? Why aren´t the other samples uploaded?
    i assume yfull only upload samples of good quality
    and not all the samples from this southern arc paper reach that standard

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    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    I think you need some geography lessons pal. The southern parts of Macedonia were clearly ancient Macedonian, and Paeonians don't seem any different genetically.
    As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

    Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

    Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.
    Not really.




    Tried to label the clusters in the following image, there is a clear trend.


    Ps: Orange diamonds are modern Albanian samples, yellow triangles are modern Greek samples. There is clear clustering between modern Albanians and what looks to be Cetina derived Balkans(HRV, MNE, MKD, ALB).
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    As some argued correctly. Current geographical North Macedonia was not inhabited by Ancient Macedonians. But what people missed out on, is that during the Iron Age (dating of NorthMac samples) there was no Macedonia in Northern Greece either. The Macedonians settled there only later, or were beginning to establish themselves in a small region in current Greek Macedonia (Emathia). So in the case of Ancient Macedonians we really need classical or Hellenistic samples to understand their genetic make up.

    Second, as for the genetic make up of the Illyrians. The essence is that most ancient Illyrians do not overlap with modern Greeks/Albanians, but with North Italians. They are not even near Mycenaeans (unlike many Thracians). There is no point in correlating ancient Illyrians overall and ancient Macedonians. In fact, there are some samples in the Ancient region of Albania which, unlike most Illyrian samples, are pulled towards Mycenaeans. And perhaps (and this is only speculation) Ancient Macedonians cluster close to that group. But overall, all these groups fall within the Ancient Greek genetic sphere.
    Using Northern Macedonian sample the Slavic admixture is lowered to 25% in Peloponnese and 33% in Greek Macedonia.

    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.2767% / 0.01276704
    26.2 Polish
    24.8 GRC_Mycenaean
    23.0 BGR_IA
    21.0 Armenian_Gesaria
    5.0 MKD_Anc


    Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
    Distance: 1.1134% / 0.01113445
    33.8 Polish
    25.8 GRC_Mycenaean
    16.8 Armenian_Gesaria
    14.0 MKD_Anc
    9.6 BGR_IA
    Target: Greek_Peloponnese
    Distance: 1.2767% / 0.01276704
    26.2 Polish
    24.8 GRC_Mycenaean
    23.0 BGR_IA
    21.0 Armenian_Gesaria
    5.0 MKD_Anc

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_ View Post
    Ohrid was Illyrian town , Skopje was most likely Illyrian. Where many of these samples found in Northern Macedonia are clearly not Ancient Macedonians but Illyrians. What are you even talking about ?

    Ohrid was inhabited by Illyrians:



    Paeonians were most likely Illyrians or Thracians.


    In what planet are some of these samples found in Northern Macedonia supposed to be Ancient Macedonians ?


    It's also interesting how Northern Macedonia has never been considered as a possible Albanian homeland ? Especially Skopje, Dibra area etc and South-Western parts of Kosovo around the Pashtrik mountains.

    Your obsessions are mostly with samples from Albania, Croatia, Montenegro and Kosovo.
    Paeonians lived between the Dardanians and the Macedonians ..............throughout their history they where either allied or where a vassal of the Macedonians......they even went with Alexander the Great on his Persian conquests ....
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not really.




    Tried to label the clusters in the following image, there is a clear trend.


    Ps: Orange diamonds are modern Albanian samples, yellow triangles are modern Greek samples. There is clear clustering between modern Albanians and what looks to be Cetina derived Balkans(HRV, MNE, MKD, ALB).
    Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

    I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

    I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.
    One sample from Hellenistic Thessaloniki seem to plot intermediate modern Sicilians and IA Peloponnesians. So basically similar to Southern Ancient Greeks but with a little bit more (+5%) steppe. I would expect them to be more like the Thracian/South Greek samples as the model suggests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

    I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.
    The naming I went for is arbitrary, but loosely based on the clusters. IIRC, I named that 10 o'clock cluster, Ancient Macedonian because it was homogenously made out of ANC_MKD. Now, as with most arbitrary things, it can be debated, but even the alternatives would be arbitrary.

    I would have been on the camp of these samples being Illyrians as well, cause autosomally they look Cetina derived or at least very similar to the Cinamak and Velika/Mala Gruda samples. But it is clear that patrilinearly they are distinct, and looking at the Y-DNA these could indeed be ancient Macedonians. I think their autosomal profile even fits the historical accounts. But all this is, is speculation, until Greek academies test ancient Macedonians proper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    One sample from Hellenistic Thessaloniki seem to plot intermediate modern Sicilians and IA Peloponnesians. So basically similar to Southern Ancient Greeks but with a little bit more (+5%) steppe. I would expect them to be more like the Thracian/South Greek samples as the model suggests.
    I wouldn't be surprised that Hellenistic people from Macedonia proper plot closer to Mycenaean peoples. For starters, unlike the South Illyrians, the Macedonians inhabited an area next to the Aegean. But I like to keep an open mind. Perhaps the Ancient Macedonians are closer to the proto-Hellenic (or Greco-Phrygian) source which gave Mycenaeans steppe ancestry. They lagged behind in the mountains, maintaining their old ways and traditions, but also keeping some of these older genes. Ofcourse eventually they desolved. Perhaps even before the Hellenistic Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The naming I went for is arbitrary, but loosely based on the clusters. IIRC, I named that 10 o'clock cluster, Ancient Macedonian because it was homogenously made out of ANC_MKD. Now, as with most arbitrary things, it can be debated, but even the alternatives would be arbitrary.
    The alternatives would have been arbitrary indeed. But labeling them Ancient Macedonian is simply false.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    The alternatives would have been arbitrary indeed. But labeling them Ancient Macedonian is simply false.
    Macedonia is Greek up until the DNA tests come out

    Those samples southeast of Ohrid are clearly part of Upper Macedonia (western Macedonia). Paeonians were also ruled by Macedonians and were under their direct control/sphere of influence, and showed no difference to those other samples.

    The border between Albania/Macedonia in ancient times was all the way in Albania, where the siege of Pelium was fought somewhere in Korce.

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    Why don't you wait until we have more samples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Why don't you wait until we have more samples?
    For what? We know modern day Korce was the Illyrian/Macedonian division at the city of Pelium (Greek name btw). Anything east of that was Upper Macedonia.

    Maybe all these Greek people should go read their own history and see that before Alexander ancient Greeks called Macedonians "barbarians" i.e. "foreigners".

    Demosthenes on Philip

    "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" "

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    When the greatest orator of ancient Greece calls your king "no Greek, not related to Greeks" and a "barbarian", maybe Idk...start questioning the whole Macedonia = Greek thing.

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    We have been there before. Macedon kings have been participating in the Olympics (which had a strict rule of only allowing Greeks in) centuries before Alexander. As for Demosthenes, once again, he was a mortal political enemy of Philip and his son, of course he would slander them. Not even “Barbarian” means much unless besides Macedon, also Mytilene was non Greek now.

    In Plato's Protagoras, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect of Pittacus of Mytilene as "barbarian" (barbaros),[2] because of its difference from the Attic literary style:[3] "He didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect".

    For someone calling out Greeks on their history, you surely don’t know much about it.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Macedonia is Greek up until the DNA tests come out
    You are missing the point. Macedonian samples are only Macedonian until we have Macedonian samples and not Paeonian.

    Furthermore, the Paeonian samples which are compared to Mycenaeans are from a different period of time as well. On that note, the differences between Paeonians and Bronze Age Greeks is, if anything, quite minimal. I.e. there are far bigger genetic differences within the gene-pool of modern Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Turks etc. today. I am actually quite amazed that some of the Iron Age South Illyrians and Thracians plot so close to the Bronze Age Greeks who are more Mediterranean than the modern Greeks. From my perspective, they could easily have been justified as Ancient Greeks where they part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. It clearly seems, however, that Thraco-Illyrians were not part of that culture.

    Those samples southeast of Ohrid are clearly part of Upper Macedonia (western Macedonia).
    The people inhabiting that area were Molossians. Which goes to show what was the most northern plotted Ancient Greek tribe during the Iron Age.

    Cavalli-Sforza was right. He noticed this genetic signature in the 80s. Ancient Greeks, South Illyrians, Phrygians, South Thracians were all genetically similar. The rest is cherry picking for modern political agenda's.

    pc4.jpg
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 28-09-22 at 17:17.

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