Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 LastLast
Results 351 to 375 of 402

Thread: The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

  1. #351
    Banned
    Join Date
    25-12-21
    Posts
    737

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2B2-L283/Z638

    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    You are missing the point. Macedonian samples are only Macedonian until we have Macedonian samples and not Paeonian.

    Furthermore, the Paeonian samples which are compared to Mycenaeans are from a different period of time as well. On that note, the differences between Paeonians and Bronze Age Greeks is, if anything, quite minimal. I.e. there are far bigger genetic differences within the gene-pool of modern Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Turks etc. today. I am actually quite amazed that some of the Iron Age South Illyrians and Thracians plot so close to the Bronze Age Greeks who are more Mediterranean than the modern Greeks. From my perspective, they could easily have been justified as Ancient Greeks where they part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. It clearly seems, however, that Thraco-Illyrians were not part of that culture.



    The people inhabiting that area were Molossians. Which goes to show what was the most northern plotted Ancient Greek tribe during the Iron Age.

    Cavalli-Sforza was right. He noticed this genetic signature in the 80s. Ancient Greeks, South Illyrians, Phrygians, South Thracians were all genetically similar. The rest is cherry picking for modern political agenda's.

    Attachment 13595
    Upper (West) Macedonia is not Paeoian. Like I said, Alexander fought the Illyrians at the city of Korce in Albania today. The city's name was "Pelion". Anything east of that was Macedonian territory.

    And obviously they're all southern European populations, but that doesn't mean they're all identical. There are clear clusters.

  2. #352
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,960

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Some people here, must realize 2 things,

    1, Minoans, major Myceneans, what we called Helladic civilizations, may not be 'pure IE'
    2, IE came to Helladic space from North, from Vucocar,
    3, comcerning the Mycenean world, and the Hellenic non Mycenean we understand the exact migrations,
    4, the Northern points of Myceneans are mt Olymp, and Dodone sacred grounds,
    5, The Northern areas of Proto-Greek is lake lychinitis today Ohrid,
    6, the pass of Greco-Brygian to Proto-Greek to Classical Greek, has a lot of changes, one basic is Dias to Theos,
    that means when primitive Greek pass to Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean etc world, linguistic changes happened,
    same happens after Roman occupation, Christianity, and Slavic entrance, changes like Basilice to Vasilike needs milleniums to become Lingua Franca, and may not happen if there is no starter,

    Now considering the complex co-existance of Makedonians with Brygians, and all what today scientists found, develop and apply,
    Major Makedonians and Epirotes were more from the stuff that was closer to Greco-Brygian, than the older Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean stuff.





    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  3. #353
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by enter_tain View Post
    Upper (West) Macedonia is not Paeoian. Like I said, Alexander fought the Illyrians at the city of Korce in Albania today. The city's name was "Pelion". Anything east of that was Macedonian territory.

    And obviously they're all southern European populations, but that doesn't mean they're all identical. There are clear clusters.
    Pelagonia was populated by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.
    Last edited by Dianatomia; 30-09-22 at 17:26.

  4. #354
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,367

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Pelagonia was settled by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.

    Molossians are Greek like Epirotes

    Chaones are non-Greek like Epirotes
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

  5. #355
    Regular Member Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,960

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Pelagonia was settled by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.



    ?????????????

  6. #356
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    415


    Country: Yugoslavia



    The samples from Marvinci is actually ancient Idomenae as archeologist believe which is pretty close to Macedonian core if you want to put Emathia as such,and by the time some of this samples are dated Idomenae was ancient Macedonian domain I guess,how much and whether Emathians or Macedonians were different from Idomenae samples we should wait and see.

  7. #357
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    415


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia.

  8. #358
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia.
    I trust those as much as I trust Herodotus when it comes to geography of distant places.

  9. #359
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    05-03-16
    Posts
    415


    Country: Yugoslavia



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    I trust those as much as I trust Herodotus when it comes to geography of distant places.
    For some things we trust for some things we don't however is worth mentioning and especially that ancient Macedonians were not aliens to their neighbors.Read for example about the Paeonian tribe of Agrianes and their service in the Macedonian army.Thracians, Illyrians or any other so it will not be surprise even if they will appear genetically similar.And I do not question their Greekness do not care whatever they were.

  10. #360
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,681

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    For some things we trust for some things we don't however is worth mentioning and especially that ancient Macedonians were not aliens to their neighbors.Read for example about the Paeonian tribe of Agrianes and their service in the Macedonian army.Thracians, Illyrians or any other so it will not be surprise even if they will appear genetically similar.And I do not question their Greekness do not care whatever they were.
    The reason that object to it is that the Macedons were a pretty small tribe, just couple of cities in Pella and Agai. I would be surprised if they were a total of 20,000 people. How ever their kings were very astute and married well with the daughters of their neighboring chieftains. Phillip had 8 wives. They expanded their kingdom through marriage, alliances and conquests. The conquered Illyrians, Paeonians and Thracians were not Macedonians. Were the Macedonians very close genetically to their neighbors? Absolutely. As far as Greenness is concerned they participated in the Olympic Games, and they spoke a rough dialect of Doric Greek. I would have a hard time understanding a old Cretan speaking their local dialect or a Pontic Greek. A few words here and there maybe...I would expect that the Athenians would have a hard time understanding the Macedons, particularly the peasants. But then there were 230 minor Greek tribes in antiquity, each speaking a local dialect and using a slightly different alphabet.

  11. #361
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-03-12
    Posts
    345


    Ethnic group
    Greek
    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    This whole Greekness thing of the Ancient Macedonians is overblown by modern political agenda's and competing nationalisms of modern Balkan nations.

    I don't even care about the fact that they participated in the Olympics. Nor do I care about their rivalry with the Athenians. The Macedonians were part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. They believed in the Greek gods, spoke some language which clearly stems from the same proto-Greek source and they eventually ended up spreading Greek culture on a global scale. Not to mention that they standardised the Greek language, eventually resulting to what is today modern Greek.

    Now the ball is being played on a gentic level. If the Ohrid samples are Illyrian. Then they are simply a South Illyrians, with whatever difference they have from North Illyrians. Who cares? If they are Molossian, then this is where the North Greeks plot at that time. They had a little bit more steppe than Mycenaeans. However, if they are Macedonians, then hold your horses. We have evidence that they are not Greeks, because they do not completely overlap with Myceneans.

    If other modern Balkan people's want to claim some paleo-balkan kinship with them. That's absolutely fine. The problem in the Balkans is that people emphasize differences, rather than similarities. As Milan.M correctly argues, Alexander's conquest started off as a pan-Balkan expedition. Under the Hellenic banner.

  12. #362
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Posts
    1,846

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    This whole Greekness thing of the Ancient Macedonians is overblown by modern political agenda's and competing nationalisms of modern Balkan nations.

    I don't even care about the fact that they participated in the Olympics. Nor do I care about their rivalry with the Athenians. The Macedonians were part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. They believed in the Greek gods, spoke some language which clearly stems from the same proto-Greek source and they eventually ended up spreading Greek culture on a global scale. Not to mention that they standardised the Greek language, eventually resulting to what is today modern Greek.

    Now the ball is being played on a gentic level. If the Ohrid samples are Illyrian. Then they are simply a South Illyrians, with whatever difference they have from North Illyrians. Who cares? If they are Molossian, then this is where the North Greeks plot at that time. They had a little bit more steppe than Mycenaeans. However, if they are Macedonians, then hold your horses. We have evidence that they are not Greeks, because they do not completely overlap with Myceneans.

    If other modern Balkan people's want to claim some paleo-balkan kinship with them. That's absolutely fine. The problem in the Balkans is that people emphasize differences, rather than similarities. As Milan.M correctly argues, Alexander's conquest started off as a pan-Balkan expedition. Under the Hellenic banner.
    I don't think from Southern arch paper the samples from modern South-West/Lake Ohrid of modern North Macedonia was part of Ancient Macedonia, especially not in Iron Age. Perhaps we can argue about the samples of Isar-Marvinci, Idomenae which is approximately part of the southernmost city of Gevgelija of Northern Macedonia. That's it.

  13. #363
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-11-16
    Posts
    474


    Country: United States



    Speaking of Macedonians, I am pretty confident that the Korca medieval(I13834) sample is actually a Late Bronze Age or IA indivdual and behaves strongly like the MKD samples, it shows strong thirst for Cetina BA as well. It models very badly as a Albanian ancestor, shows no direct relationship despite allegedly being 1400 AD.





  14. #364
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,367

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North East Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    This whole Greekness thing of the Ancient Macedonians is overblown by modern political agenda's and competing nationalisms of modern Balkan nations.

    I don't even care about the fact that they participated in the Olympics. Nor do I care about their rivalry with the Athenians. The Macedonians were part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. They believed in the Greek gods, spoke some language which clearly stems from the same proto-Greek source and they eventually ended up spreading Greek culture on a global scale. Not to mention that they standardised the Greek language, eventually resulting to what is today modern Greek.

    Now the ball is being played on a gentic level. If the Ohrid samples are Illyrian. Then they are simply a South Illyrians, with whatever difference they have from North Illyrians. Who cares? If they are Molossian, then this is where the North Greeks plot at that time. They had a little bit more steppe than Mycenaeans. However, if they are Macedonians, then hold your horses. We have evidence that they are not Greeks, because they do not completely overlap with Myceneans.

    If other modern Balkan people's want to claim some paleo-balkan kinship with them. That's absolutely fine. The problem in the Balkans is that people emphasize differences, rather than similarities. As Milan.M correctly argues, Alexander's conquest started off as a pan-Balkan expedition. Under the Hellenic banner.

    which are the other Illyrian tribes around Lake Ohrid ................I have no idea when the The Enchelei/Sesarethii arrived in Lake Ohrid from Budva Montenegro as this place ( Montenegro ) is where they where ruled by Cadmus and Harmonia before moving centuries later around lake Ohrid

    The Enchelei or Sesarethii ( what Strabo called them ) were an Illyrian tribe.

  15. #365
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,141

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Some people here, must realize 2 things,

    1, Minoans, major Myceneans, what we called Helladic civilizations, may not be 'pure IE'
    2, IE came to Helladic space from North, from Vucocar,
    3, comcerning the Mycenean world, and the Hellenic non Mycenean we understand the exact migrations,
    4, the Northern points of Myceneans are mt Olymp, and Dodone sacred grounds,
    5, The Northern areas of Proto-Greek is lake lychinitis today Ohrid,
    6, the pass of Greco-Brygian to Proto-Greek to Classical Greek, has a lot of changes, one basic is Dias to Theos,
    that means when primitive Greek pass to Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean etc world, linguistic changes happened,
    same happens after Roman occupation, Christianity, and Slavic entrance, changes like Basilice to Vasilike needs milleniums to become Lingua Franca, and may not happen if there is no starter,

    Now considering the complex co-existance of Makedonians with Brygians, and all what today scientists found, develop and apply,
    Major Makedonians and Epirotes were more from the stuff that was closer to Greco-Brygian, than the older Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean stuff.







    Still dreaming for Vucovar, the route of Hellenes passes was from Easter Thrace not Vucovar per Lazaridis at al. So Έλληνe δεν θα γίνεις Ιλλυρo ποτέ’.

    In addition Albanian becomes a sister language for Greek from a genetic prospective. Who would have thought that, Lazaridis wants to make us Greeks, it seem the Armenian brothers are not that close after all even though initially they are though to be very close and went to Anatolia from the Balkans.

    Also note that the arrival of the Greek in the Balkans now is around 1600 BC. Late comers it seems.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  16. #366
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,141

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I don't think from Southern arch paper the samples from modern South-West/Lake Ohrid of modern North Macedonia was part of Ancient Macedonia, especially not in Iron Age. Perhaps we can argue about the samples of Isar-Marvinci, Idomenae which is approximately part of the southernmost city of Gevgelija of Northern Macedonia. That's it.
    Do you believe that samples from Lake Ohrid will be very different from the ones that will come from Ancient Macedonia.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  17. #367
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-11-16
    Posts
    474


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Do you believe that samples from Lake Ohrid will be very different from the ones that will come from Ancient Macedonia.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Blevins, we already have samples from Ohrid, this is how they can be modeled, a compromise between south Illyrians and Paeonians. Take note, the sample from Korca also belongs to this exact group. The Ohrid group forms it's own cluster.


  18. #368
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,141

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Blevins, we already have samples from Ohrid, this is how they can be modeled, a compromise between south Illyrians and Paeonians. Take note, the sample from Korca also belongs to this exact group. The Ohrid group forms it's own cluster.

    My question relates to Ancient Macedonian. Do you believe they will be different from the ones from Lake Ohrid?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #369
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    26-11-16
    Posts
    474


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    My question relates to Ancient Macedonian. Do you believe they will be different from the ones from Lake Ohrid?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Based on Y-haplogroup(J2a) association of the Ohrid series, they are the ones most likely related to the proper Macedonians. Also the Korca sample which is clearly missdated points to R-PF7563 being present in Epirus and Macedonia as well. One of the Cinamak samples was R-PF7562, don't know if that is certain and negative for the downstream to R-PF7563.

    Korca misdated MKD and Alb Cinamak 14688, both might carry the same haplgroup, somewhat similar profile too.

    Last edited by PaleoRevenge; 06-10-22 at 02:05.

  20. #370
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    52


    Country: Finland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post


    Still dreaming for Vucovar, the route of Hellenes passes was from Easter Thrace not Vucovar per Lazaridis at al. So Έλληνe δεν θα γίνεις Ιλλυρo ποτέ’.

    In addition Albanian becomes a sister language for Greek from a genetic prospective. Who would have thought that, Lazaridis wants to make us Greeks, it seem the Armenian brothers are not that close after all even though initially they are though to be very close and went to Anatolia from the Balkans.o

    Also note that the arrival of the Greek in the Balkans now is around 1600 BC. Late comers it seems.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    By 1700BCE “Greeks” were already in Greece, that’s the academic consensus. And by Greeks I mean the yamnaya-Minoan mix. We do have radiocarbon methods and archaeological material you know. The yamnaya branch that spoke protogreek has obviously been in the general Balkan area for longer. And no lazaridis isn’t trying to “make you Greek”, it is the data that points towards Greeks and Albanians and maybe Armenians having a direct common yamnaya ancestral population (wouldn’t be surprised if Armenians are one step removed and there is a grecoalbanian yamnaya sister group to them that went to Balkans). I can’t even begin to fathom why you find any of that controversial.

  21. #371
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,556


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    It amazes me that some people can still be so clueless that they don't get that the EVERYBODY in the Balkans was Anatolian/European farmer like, present in the area since at least 4000 B.C., who then got some ADDITIONAL Anatolian, but more Iranian Neo like ancestry, and then some Yamnaya like or Corded Ware like ancestry.

    The ancient Greeks didn't have an OLDER presence than anyone else, and neither did the ancient Albanians.

    The last major folk migration was that of the Slavic speaking peoples. EVERYONE also got some part of that, but some less than others. So, if someone wanted to look at it in a nonsensical, which population is older way, the populations with more "Slavic" would be "younger". It's a stupid exercise, however, imo.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  22. #372
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,141

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The ancient Greeks didn't have an OLDER presence than anyone else, and neither did the ancient Albanians.

    The last major folk migration was that of the Slavic speaking peoples. EVERYONE also got some part of that, but some less than others. So, if someone wanted to look at it in a nonsensical, which population is older way, the populations with more "Slavic" would be "younger". It's a stupid exercise, however, imo.
    I don’t think that Greek and Albanians arrived in the Balkans at the same time. The one that branched later from Armenian is the late arrival. In this case would be Greeks. As for who get more new recent immigrant or invaders become “younger” and who has less remains “older” is something that makes no sense to me. The arrival of a certain people in a certain place that speak a certain language doesn’t depends from who them absorb subsequently.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  23. #373
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,141

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    By 1700BCE “Greeks” were already in Greece, that’s the academic consensus. And by Greeks I mean the yamnaya-Minoan mix. We do have radiocarbon methods and archaeological material you know. The yamnaya branch that spoke protogreek has obviously been in the general Balkan area for longer. And no lazaridis isn’t trying to “make you Greek”, it is the data that points towards Greeks and Albanians and maybe Armenians having a direct common yamnaya ancestral population (wouldn’t be surprised if Armenians are one step removed and there is a grecoalbanian yamnaya sister group to them that went to Balkans). I can’t even begin to fathom why you find any of that controversial.
    So why Lazaridis shows 1500 BC in the map for the yamnaya intrusion into Mycenaean culture?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #374
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,556


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I don’t think that Greek and Albanians arrived in the Balkans at the same time. The one that branched later from Armenian is the late arrival. In this case would be Greeks. As for who get more new recent immigrant or invaders become “younger” and who has less remains “older” is something that makes no sense to me. The arrival of a certain people in a certain place that speak a certain language doesn’t depends from who them absorb subsequently.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You have no freaking idea when Albanian speakers arrived in the Balkans and neither does anyone else.

  25. #375
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    09-08-17
    Posts
    52


    Country: Finland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So why Lazaridis shows 1500 BC in the map for the yamnaya intrusion into Mycenaean culture?
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    There was no “yamnaya intrusion into Mycenean culture”. There were no Myceneans before yamnaya merged with what we presume (and dna seems to concur) “minoan-like”’ populations of the area that became known as Greece. There are several Mycenean chamber tombs all around Greece (even in Messenia in the extreme southwest, total opposite from their entry point to Greece) dated from 1600BCE already. Yamnaya didn’t teleport from Ukraine to Peloponnesus you know, it took centuries to get there.
    What I understand from the map and the pie charts above is what Lazaridis gives as a rough genome approximation in Greece after the first stage of Greek ethnogenesis was completed.
    At that point Myceneans were a nation and a political power, strong enough that after Minoan Knossos (probably the last bastion of the minoan like people) got destroyed in 1450BCE they swept in and conquered crete. There is ample evidence of change in burial structures and administration at that exact point.
    https://academia.edu/resource/work/30141476

    There is no way in hell yamnaya appeared in 1500BCE and within 50 years, although grossly outnumbered they spread their language to everyone, created a nation and mounted and offensive to Crete.

Page 15 of 17 FirstFirst ... 51314151617 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •