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Thread: The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

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    The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    There was no “yamnaya intrusion into Mycenean culture”. There were no Myceneans before yamnaya merged with what we presume (and dna seems to concur) “minoan-like”’ populations of the area that became known as Greece. There are several Mycenean chamber tombs all around Greece (even in Messenia in the extreme southwest, total opposite from their entry point to Greece) dated from 1600BCE already. Yamnaya didn’t teleport from Ukraine to Peloponnesus you know, it took centuries to get there.
    What I understand from the map and the pie charts above is what Lazaridis gives as a rough genome approximation in Greece after the first stage of Greek ethnogenesis was completed.
    At that point Myceneans were a nation and a political power, strong enough that after Minoan Knossos (probably the last bastion of the minoan like people) got destroyed in 1450BCE they swept in and conquered crete. There is ample evidence of change in burial structures and administration at that exact point.
    https://academia.edu/resource/work/30141476

    There is no way in hell yamnaya appeared in 1500BCE and within 50 years, although grossly outnumbered they spread their language to everyone, created a nation and mounted and offensive to Crete.
    Hell or no hell read the graph explanations
    Nr.2 Arrow- Beginning ~5000 (3,000 BCE) years ago,Yamnaya expansions introduced Eastern European ancestry (red) west into the Balkans and Greece and east across the Caucasus into Armenia.

    Balkans: 3000–1000 BCE
    Armenia: 2000–1000 BCE
    Greece: 1500 - 1000 BCE



    Notice the presumed proto- Greek as a separate migration path and their estimated appearance in Greece.


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    The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You have no freaking idea when Albanian speakers arrived in the Balkans and neither does anyone else.


    This is what we know from the paper.

    Beginning ~5000 (3,000 BCE) years ago,Yamnaya expansions introduced
    Eastern European ancestry (red)
    west into the Balkans and Greece
    and east across the Caucasus into
    Armenia.

    Balkans: 3000–1000 BCE
    Armenia: 2000–1000 BCE
    Greece: 1500 - 1000 BCE

    And this is what can be inferred from Linguistics. Armenian and Greek languages are closer between each other than with Albanian. So logically Albanian should have split from them first with the group of Paleo Balkans, either wise will be closer to Greek or to Armenian.

    P.S. I am going to enjoy so much going forward all the new theories of how close Albanian and Greek languages are from the same people that denied that in the past.


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    Last edited by blevins13; 06-10-22 at 04:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Hell or no hell read the graph explanations
    Nr.2 Arrow- Beginning ~5000 (3,000 BCE) years ago,Yamnaya expansions introduced Eastern European ancestry (red) west into the Balkans and Greece and east across the Caucasus into Armenia.
    Balkans: 3000–1000 BCE
    Armenia: 2000–1000 BCE
    Greece: 1500 - 1000 BCE

    Notice the presumed proto- Greek as a separate migration path and their estimated appearance in Greece.
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    I answered to all that. Yamnaya are in Ukraine in 3000BCE, they spread from there and by 1500BCE Greeks exist. There is nothing in this map that alludes to yamnaya arriving to Greece in 1500BCE and we know for a fact their presence to be earlier than that. As I said academic consensus places the first Mycenean presence as far back as 1750BCE. Don’t take my word, have a peer reviewed work from 2021.

    https://i.ibb.co/hcdSSTT/E0882-D5-D-...3765268-C2.jpg

    https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books...?loc=001.xhtml

    That’s the birth certificate of Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    I answered to all that. Yamnaya are in Ukraine in 3000BCE, they spread from there and by 1500BCE Greeks exist. There is nothing in this map that alludes to yamnaya arriving to Greece in 1500BCE and we know for a fact their presence to be earlier than that. As I said academic consensus places the first Mycenean presence as far back as 1750BCE. Don’t take my word, have a peer reviewed work from 2021.

    https://i.ibb.co/hcdSSTT/E0882-D5-D-...3765268-C2.jpg

    https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books...?loc=001.xhtml

    That’s the birth certificate of Greeks.
    1750 BCE or 1,500 BCE makes a little difference. Per Lazaridis, Yamnaya languages were used as lingua Franka. There was no drastic change on the Minionian - like population.

    For me this scenario is hard to buy at this stage.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    1750 BCE or 1,500 BCE makes a little difference. Per Lazaridis, Yamnaya languages were used as lingua Franka. There was no drastic change on the Minionian - like population.

    For me this scenario is hard to buy at this stage.


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    So are you suggesting that the yamnaya picked up more EEF/CHG or whatnot ancestry on their way to what today is Greece, their numbers were big but their steppe already diluted? Or that they arrived even earlier in small undiluted numbers and took them a while to spread their language without affecting the autosomal character that much? Because we know for a fact that in the 1700s there is a culture change, we know that by 1450 a complete language shift across the whole Helladic world was concluded with Crete switching last, and we know all these changes coincide with the introduction of steppe ancestry in the area. If you have another interpretation of the data I am willing to listen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    So are you suggesting that the yamnaya picked up more EEF/CHG or whatnot ancestry on their way to what today is Greece, their numbers were big but their steppe already diluted? Or that they arrived even earlier in small undiluted numbers and took them a while to spread their language without affecting the autosomal character that much? Because we know for a fact that in the 1700s there is a culture change, we know that by 1450 a complete language shift across the whole Helladic world was concluded with Crete switching last, and we know all these changes coincide with the introduction of steppe ancestry in the area. If you have another interpretation of the data I am willing to listen.
    This Lingua Franca seems odd. Minion-Like people were communicating with Indoeuropian from Anatolia for a very long time and no language shif happed. I guess we have to wait a see and understand better this scenario.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I don't understand why it should be proved that Greeks came from the steppe, when it has been proved that Anatolian IE people came from the south of Caucasus, not the steppe? Just because Greek culture was not too old?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    Based on Y-haplogroup(J2a) association of the Ohrid series, they are the ones most likely related to the proper Macedonians. Also the Korca sample which is clearly missdated points to R-PF7563 being present in Epirus and Macedonia as well. One of the Cinamak samples was R-PF7562, don't know if that is certain and negative for the downstream to R-PF7563.

    Korca misdated MKD and Alb Cinamak 14688, both might carry the same haplgroup, somewhat similar profile too.


    I want to build on this comment, I3834 and I4688 are very likely to both be R-PF7563 and what possibly binds them together is Enchele tribe if this map is to be taken at face value.


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    South of Caucasus in 1200 BC:



    Armenians call themselves Hay, their original land was Hayasa-Azzi in the Pontic region of Anatolia, not Caucasus. Those who lived in the south of Caucasus were Trialeti and Bianili (Urartian) peoples.

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    mount123 said: 26-08-22 10:32
    Regarding J2b-L283:
    In totality there are about 35 J2b-L283 samples of which the majority are from the Bronze Age and Iron Age East Adriatic.
    J2b-L283 has been proven to be the main haplogroup of the Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture and Classical Illyrians. The J2b-L283 samples in this study extend from Early Bronze Age 2500 BCE onwards. This aligns perfectly with all of the many J2b-L283 samples of the area we have gotten from previous papers.
    Samples from Illyrii proprie dicti (Montenegro and Shkodra) are mostly represented by J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297+.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Albanian gentleman, you somewhat forgot to repeat your Pan-Albanian genetic theories that you had recently presented with an almost religious zeal
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ysical-Stature
    I think that it is very appropriate in this thread because thanks to Lazaridis et al., we now know multiple cases of I2a1a2-M423 cases from the prehistoric Balkans, including I2 from Mesolithic Montenegro. Since you were so insulted that I understimated your intelligence, you can present your counterarguments. In my next paper, I will quote them as "Albanian dude from the internet" - which is a widely recognized, reputable source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    I want to build on this comment, I3834 and I4688 are very likely to both be R-PF7563 and what possibly binds them together is Enchele tribe if this map is to be taken at face value.

    Enchele as per map origins are from Budva Montenegro .............they moved to western macedonia circa 600BC

    the name attached to them was what strabo called them (sesarethioi )
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    MaybeMy J-L283 came from sardinia. Etruscan, sardinia and Iberian connection seems to be apparant to the pottery. Put that Connection also to the Daunian / Iapygian image I posted before. From the pdf.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ranean_setting
    [Spoiler]
    As the denomination already alludes, the mediterraneiz-zante fit into the iconographical tradition of the “oriental-izing” EIA Mediterranean if compared to Iron Age Iberian,Etruscan and Italian bronzetti (see below). This groupconsists of schematic and roundish smaller figurines withlittle to no details or decoration, and often with a dynamicposture which serves to give them an expressionistic ap-pearance

    126.Apart from the fixture for permanent installation,base plates which would enable movement of the statu-ettes are common. Less time and material went into themaking of the figurines of this group, as they are smallerand numerically fewer: 67 (25%) anthropomorphic whichare known to the author, and between 17 and 4319 (8% or20%) zoomorphic representations. Their often crude ac-complishment and lack of details means that time wassaved on decoration, hinting that it was only deemednecessary that the essentials should be depicted.3.3 Anthropomorphic representationsUta Abini (Fig. 2–4)The iconography of this group seems to follow a clear,repetitive code of representation. Most of the figurines(54%) depict warriors and archers (fig. 2,a–f; 3; 4,a–c.g),and among them, horned headdresses prevail. Theweaponry nearly always consists of a sword and roundshield, while only a single warrior carries a spear (fig. 7,f).Nine figurines of warriors which were found in Abini-Tetihave each four arms and eyes with each carrying twoshields and two swords. The important features of afighter are enhanced in these representations: extra eye-sight, extra strength and extra armament (fig. 2,b).Together with a “minotaur” from the group of uniquefigurines (fig. 2,v) they clearly refer to the supernaturalworld. Raising a hand in a benedictory pose, a trait often observed on Near Eastern cult figurines 20, is a frequentgestus among all archetypes and persists in the following mediterraneizzante style.Female figurines can be identified by breasts, longcloaks and headdresses, as well as often holding smallvessels such as bowls or “incense burners” (fig. 2,j–l).Three women are depicted with a small man on their fold and raising a blessing hand (fig. 2,s–t). The offerentes fi-gurines are represented carrying round objects, vessels,animal hides in one hand, as well as goats on theirshoulders (fig. 2,g–i). One group of bronzetti wearingpointed hats and cloaks (fig. 2,m–o) may representspecialists of divination if compared to later images ofEtruscan haruspices (fig. 16,d.e) and the related deity ofdivination, ‘Tages’.Another group consisting of the biggest figurines onaverage (19.3 to 39 cm), represent a male with a staff......



    ......
    Pistilliform swords: In Sardinia, this type has been found in Siniscola-Oroè, dating to the 11th century BC, andthree figurines of the Uta-artist (see below, fig. 2,a.r) ob-viously shoulder these swords22. These swords represent a21 Manunza 2008, 250–257.22 See also Lo Schiavo 1990a, 219–220.type common to the Atlantic Bronze Age, and the Black-moor/Braud/Huelva-Phase would be the last phase when pistilliform swords were still in use but already “bastante extraordinario”, which means they are mostly earlier than1050–930 cal. BC23.2.
    Votive swords: The first original Sardinian swordsare purely symbolic weapons since their size and alloymake them extremely fragile and therefore unusable inactual fighting24. Those artefacts were often fixed on theroof-tops and “tables of offerings” of sanctuaries and aretherefore associated to their construction. In the Albuc-ciu-Arzachena hoard, votive sword fragments were foundwith pieces of Cypriot oxhide ingots in a Nuragic pot of theLBA, 1300–1150 BC25. The fixing of bronzetti to the pointsof votive swords (fig. 3,a; 7,c), as well as the fact thatsome warrior bronzetti also carry votive swords (fig. 4,b.g)underline the cultic and chronological connection of bothobjects26.3.


    3.5 Boats (fig. 8)
    Depalmas who wrote an outstanding monograph on thisgroup of artefacts44, places them chronologically in theLBA (12th–11th century BC) and the EIA (10th–8th centuryBC). The iconographic complex involves: The boat with ahorned land animal’s head, the plough, land animals onboard, the nuraghe, and birds. Apart from the latter, boatsexclusively transport symbols of on-shore life. Stylisti-cally, they are all of the Uta-Abini school.The figurehead of the bronze boats is always a hornedland animal45, that is: a bull, occasionally incorporatingwater-bird features, a deer or a goat. Scenes with a repre-sentation of two bulls on a yoke, moving in the oppositedirection as the bow, can be found. In one case, a bull islead by its horns by an anthropomorphic figure, which isthe only human passenger known so far (fig. 8,e). Domes-ticated land animals, dogs and pigs, are often on board.Birds are frequently sitting on the mast, the railing or on
    nuraghe towers, which also frequently appear on boats(fig. 8,a.c). An exotic exception is one depiction of a boatwith a monkey46.A number of crude clay boat-miniatures, some withzoomorphic figureheads, has been found mostly in nur-aghi. Burnt on the inside, they appear to have been usedas lamps or incense-burners, though the same functioncannot be assumed for the bronze versions that do notshow traces of exposure to fire47. Clay models of boatsfrom the LBA are also known from Crete, Cyprus, Lípariand the Levant48. In particular the Cypriot examples can be seen to have animal figureheads of bulls and birds49. Abig difference with these examples is that Cypriot pas-sengers are always humans and not animals. The Byblos hoard (c. 1500–1200 BC) contains several bronze boats, one of which is steered by a monkey50.The symbolic complex present on the navicelle, in-cluding the protagonist-animals of Sardinian iconography in general, as well as the monkey, but not the nuraghi, ap-pear in EIA Italy, worked into a mediterran eizzante style.The cult-wagon from Lucera51 and the kettle of Bisenzio-Olmo Bello involve most of these symbols, and both in-clude a ploughing scene (fig. 17). Human representationson both of these resemble Sardinian EIA figurines.
    ......


    4. “Philistine crown”: Only one figurine by the Utaartist wears this headdress30 which is known from the “seapeople”, mostly Peleset (Philistines) on the Medinet Haburelief, dated to 1176 BC31. There is archaeological evidencefor the presence of Philistines in the Gulf of Oristano32.
    Sardinian EIA imagery, centred around fertility andsexuality, fits in with the iconography of figurative bronzes evolving in Iberia (fig. 15), the alpine region, and Italy (fig. 16; 17) during the “orientalizing” period33. Whilethe Uta-Abini style is self-consciously Sardinian and em-ploys typical Western-Mediterranean elements rooted in LBA iconography alongside many unique Sardinian char-acteristics, the mediterraneizzante style is connected to the Italian mainland and a rather uniform Mediterraneanstyle and iconography, emerging at a time of intensePhoenician trade. This would suggest an origination in the 9th century (confirmed by dating of the Antas bronzetto34,fig. 6,i), a climax of production in the 8th–6th centuries BCwith some late examples in the 5th. No artefact types canbe recognized due to the strong abstraction present in this stye.

    Mediterraneizzante (Fig. 6)The iconography of this group is less repetitive, but sex is an obvious theme. Contrary to the former group, phallicrepresentations, hermaphrodites and nudes are present.Warriors are partly nude, ithyphallic, and are never de-picted with horned headgear. All of the defining symbolsof the Uta-Abini group, such as the gamma-hilted daggersand clearly defined swords, along with the emphasized haircuts and dress, have been abandoned. A heavy rup-ture in iconography is obvious. The figurine size in thisgroup has also diminished (4.5–17.3 cm, average 10 cm)
    [/Spoiler]
    [Spoiler]

    Contexts
    4.1 Sanctuaries
    Sanctuaries Unfortunately, only about 50 % of the bronzetti are docu-mented in their original archaeological context. How-ever, it is clear that the most common use of figurativebronzetti was their visible and enduring exposureat sanctuaries dating from the LBA to the EIA, wherethey were fixed on stone bases with lead (fig. 10,b). 87%of the anthropomorphic and 46.2% of the zoomorphicfigurines from known contexts come from sacred struc-tures.Both styles – Uta-Abini and mediterraneizzante – canbe found together at sanctuaries. It has to be taken into ac-count that older bronzetti have been removed, probablyfor metal-recycling, in many cases. They were obviouslycut off at their feet, which often remained with the at-tached lead-fixing in the stone. A splendid example is the“altar”-fragment from Nurdole, where a figurine of “orien-talizing” style is placed very close to the remaining feet ofan Uta-Abini bronzetto (fig. 10,b, centre)

    settingWhile votive swords and bronzetti were producednearly exclusively for display at sanctuaries, most of theSardinian bronze-work and imports from the LBA and EIAwere also found there58. This shows that the accumulationof precious metal objects was an important element of cultand social practices. No valuable bronze objects from Nu-ragic times, apart two EIA exceptions mentioned below,are found in contexts (i.e. tombs, houses) which wouldallow them to be associated with individuals, i.e. repre-senting personal wealth.


    ....
    4.2 Tombs and other contexts
    Three statuettes were found in Sardinian single graves:One representation of a mediterraneizzante warrior atAntas62 and two of Uta-Abini archers at Sardara63, withboth tombs dating to the EIA. It has to be mentioned that single graves from the EIA are extremely rare, and apart from the two examples mentioned above, they have only been found at the Monte Prama site, where they do not contain grave-goods. In later periods, navicelle also ended up in a Punic and even a Roman tomb64.Some bronzetti, especially navicelle, have been foundin Villanovian and Etruscan religious contexts (tombs anda sanctuary hoard) on the Italian peninsula, e.g. anUta-Abini anthropomorphic figurine and two miniaturevessels in a tomb from the second half of the 9th century BCin Cav.alupo di Vulci65 (fig. 4,e)

    ....

    Function

    Bronzetti are often seen as votive offerings donated bymembers of a stratified society at the sanctuaries, wherethe status of the donator would determine motive (in asense of self-representation) and quality of the figurine68.This implies that they are a major expression of social in-equality. Tronchetti and Van Dommelen accordingly see them as artefacts of the elite69. I prefer to see them as com-municative artefacts 70, a more neutral category, as their main use for society is to communicate religious and ideological concepts.“However, there are artefacts that are not produced for mechanical use (…), but rather are designed exclusively for human communication; that is, to be perceived and to signify (to refer to entities, imaginary or not). (…)As such, they can be classified as ‘means of production’ inhuman communication and learning.” 71The four-armed warriors and the chimaera mentionedabove are not the only references to supernatural spheres.In their context at the sanctuaries and in their Mediterra-nean setting, the bronzetti are cult images. As observedabove, the horned warrior and the horned archer are themost frequent motifs of the Uta-Abini bronzetti. Therefore,the archetype of the horned warrior will be compared to both the artwork and communicative artefacts of some of Sardinian’s contact regions. Shared iconography can be aresult of culture contact and can help in the establishmentof the chronological framework in which it emerged andwas used in a defined area. For the moment, the followingobservations in this chapter are the current working-hy-pothesis and further research will be necessary to confirmthe ideas expressed on the obvious similarities of Mediter-ranean LBA and EIA imagery.

    Horned warriors in the LBA WestIn the LBA of the Western Mediterranean, depictions of warriors with horned headgear are well known from Iberian stelae 72 (fig. 11,a–c) and horned-warrior statue men-hirs from Corsica73 (fig. 12)

    2010.Iconography is strikingly similar in Sardinia and Ibe-ria, where the warrior is equipped with a sword, roundshield and sometimes a bow. Differences in equipment in-clude the spear and wagon, both of which are frequent inIberia, but extremely rare to absent in Sardinia. Both re-gions developed distinguishing pictorial art in the LBA,using techniques and picture carriers according to re-gional preferences, but sharing the iconography of thehorned warrior. The so-called diademada-stelae, whichappear to constitute a female company of the Iberian war-rior (fig. 11,b.d), might cautiously be seen in relationshipto the female entities of the bronzetti.Iberia and Sardinia were in close contact during theLBA and EIA, exchanging metal objects and techniques74.Pistilliform and carp’s tongue swords were in use in bothregions contemporaneously. Comparing the typologicallyanalogous finds from both regions in their respective con-texts helps to confirm the dating of objects. Brandherm, inhis monograph on the Iberian swords of the Bronce Final,analysed the types depicted on the stelae75, with the chro-nological result that the types in use from the 12th, like the pistilli form, to the 9th century BC carp’s tongue blades arerepresented. More recent types are hardly identifiable.Noteworthy are also the representation of an ox-hideingot on an Iberian stelae (fig. 11,a), an ox-hide ingotshaped altar in Iberia76, Cypriot artefacts that have been discovered in Iberian LBA contexts77, all of which suggesta connection via Sardinia. In Huelva, nuragic pottery andbronze artefacts confirm traffic for the end of the LBA andthe EIA78.The Corsican statue menhirs, which include hornedswordsmen, recognizable through cavities on the menhirhead that served to allow the insertion of bulls horns (fig.12,a), are chronologically placed in the Bronze Moyen/Bronze Final79. A strong connection between the statue-menhirs and water can be detected, especially at foun-tains and the confluences of rivers80. Water was a keyfeature of Sardinian sanctuaries, which contained ico-nography, as well. Another outstanding feature is thephallic appearance of the backside of many statue-men-hirs (fig. 12,c). Female representations are so far unknownfrom LBA Corsica.

    ...


    5.2
    Horned warriors in the LBA EastThe Atlantic and the Mediterranean were connected by steady traffic as well as the exchange of goods and people, and the island of Sardinia seems to have played a leading role in this network. Its most important partner to the East seems to have been Cyprus. Cypriot ox-hide copper ingotsfound on Sardinia are part of the rise of LBA metallurgy,trade and close contact between the two islands 81.The Eastern Mediterranean is the only region that can be compared to Sardinia for both the general use of bronze sculpture as a means of representation, and the quantity of figurines. Cyprus revealed few bronze statuettes, which date to the 12th century BC82 (fig. 14,a–d), while Sardinian production is topped only by the Levant and Anatolia
    (fig. 13) in showing evidence of a long-lasting tradition of sculpture83.The Eastern representations were cult-images84, and the horned warrior is understood to have been a protagonist (fig. 13; 14,a.c).
    Horned headdresses are reserved for gods, although they are not obligatory in designating a diety. Kristiansen85 stated: “It is obvious that in the Eastern Mediterranean, Asia Minor and the Near East horned anthropomorphic beings or those with horned helmets represented divinities.” He wrote this with respect to abronze statuette from Grevensvaenge, Denmark, c. 1000BC (fig. 14,e). So it seems that the idea might have travelled as far north as Scandinavia”. Pictorial representations of human warriors wearing horned headgear are known from the Eastern Mediterra-nean. In Egypt, on the Medinet Habu Relief of Ramses III,which has been dated to 1176 BC, some of the ‘seapeople’86, especially the Shardana, are characterized by it.On the Mycenaean ‘warrior vase’, dated to LH III B–C (c.1200 BC), a procession of warriors with horned headgearis shown, also involving the symbolism of the bull itself inthe vessel’s handles87. Thus, there most likely were warriors in the 12th century BC Mediterranean who actually did wear horned helmets in combat, which is hardly a sur-prise, since such a headdress would directly refer to the horned divinity with the evident martial aspect, and mighthave served to invoke the protection of the latter.
    The most famous horned warrior-deity of the East isthe so-called ‘storm god’88. In Anatolia, he was believed to have been the ruler of the ‘subterranean ocean’ and was venerated at holy wells, fountains and sanctuaries. This is due to geological conditions in large parts of Anatolia,where water is mostly present in the subterranean streams of the karst regions89. The same geological features arepresent in Sardinia
    . In the Levant, the ‘storm god’ wasmore associated with the rainstorms, which constitute the most important source of live-giving water in the region90.Thus, it seems that each region adapted the archetype toits own situation, but the essence remained the same: The‘storm god’ was a god of fertility, weather, water and war,sometimes a divine hunter91. All these associations appearto be evident in the Western Mediterranean horned war-rior images.

    Meanings of the Horned Warrior The symbolism of a deity usually includes a level of mean-ing which corresponds to the natural force which it con-trols, a level which corresponds to a social function it pro-tects and a level where it manifests in sacred animals orplants whose life-cycles might depend on its good-will. Theidea behind creating the image of a deity is to make it ap-proachable, to gain influence on the forces controlled by it.Once the decision is taken to visualize a divine entity,it can be venerated and approached in the image of itssacred animal, and, once people take the step to personifya deity, in its anthropomorphic image92, a chimaera of thesacred animal and the human form may emerge, with at-tributes such as the horns of a bull serving to highlight thesupernatural nature of the image.

    5.4 Change: Arrival of the ithyphallicsThe images of ‘horned warriors’ were all but extinct inthe West during the period called “orientalization”93(800–600 BC). In Italy, where bronze sculpture only began its career in the EIA, and in the iconography of the Iberian bronzetti94, the ‘horned warrior’ was never a motif, while the image of the bull remained important.Instead, representations of warriors and other male figurines of the 8th–5th centuries BC from Sardinia, Iberia and 103 Italy are mostly naked and phallic, while females are often naked or, as in Iberia, wear long dresses (fig. 6; 15–17).Hermaphroditic representations appear everywhere.While the essence of the warrior archetype might be unchanged, its iconography changes radically in thesense that attributes which express regional identity areno longer displayed anymore, as was the case with typi-cal weapon types or dress in the LBA imagery. Fertility at-tributes are expressed instead. In the LBA, it is only thephallic Corsican statue menhirs which explicitly show thisaspect. The fact that regional identity is not put into sceneanymore points towards changes in the socio-politicalrealm. [BFurthermore, imports of or locally produced figurines of clearly oriental and Egyptian gods spread in the Western Mediterranean via the Phoenicians.[/b]

    5.5 Symbolism of some other archetypes
    The bull can be said to be the most important animal inSardinian and Mediterranean iconography. In the East, it is connected to the ‘storm god’ and to Ishtar, later to the Greek ‘storm god’ Zeus. In Iberia, the bull’s image appears first in conjunction with the horned warriors of the LBA/EIA stelae, and then becomes a common motif in Iberian art. The animals appearing in Italian and Etruscan im-agery of the EIA are strikingly similar to the Sardinian animal-bronzes95 (fig. 17).The vessel-bearing female (fig. 2,j–l; 6,l–n; 14,d; 15,f;16a; 17) is a popular figure in the art of the EIA Hallstattregions and Italy96. Looking to the East, Negbi includedsome LBA figurines of this type from the Near East in herSyro-Egyptian group97. The Sardinian statuettes might beamong the oldest preserved representations of a female divinity associated with ritual drinking in Western Europe. The offerentes carry mostly round objects, vessels oranimal hides in one hand or goats on their shoulders, andcould represent divinities of agriculture or pastoralism of-fering their gifts.95
    [/Spoiler]
    [Spoiler]

    Origins

    This chapter is again to be seen as a working-hypothesisthat has to be supported by further research: an emergingpicture from the study of the socio-political situation inthe Mediterranean in the LBA and EIA. Metallurgy reacheda remarkably high level in Sardinia in the 14th century BC,when a rupture between Middle Bronze Age (MBA) metal-lurgy and the LBA “bronze boom” is evident99. The use ofCypriot metal-working tools100, as well as the use of Iron inthe LBA101, as sophisticated technologies known in Sardi-nia straight from the LBA, imply that knowledge arrivedfrom the Atlantic and the Eastern Mediterranean at thattime and was integrated quickly in Nuragic society.


    Of the metal forms, Cypriot types dominate tools forworking metal, and these are further developed by Sar-dinians. Other tools, especially axes, as well as mostweapon types, are clearly derived from peninsular, Ibe-rian or Atlantic types, such as pistilliform and carp’stongue swords and spearheads. The only items of in-disputable Sardinian origin are the votive swords andgamma-hilted daggers, both symbolic weapons. Cypriotshapes are used for ritual objects like tripods and for toiletequipment. The most distinguishing Sardinian ritual ob-jects are the bronzetti. Objects of ornament are rare andnearly always imports, except for the dress-pins which re-sisted the introduction of fibulae until the EIA102

    Major changes took place in the whole Mediterranean around 1200 BC, most notably crisis and decline of the ar-chaic states of the East103. Facing the violent destruction of their homesteads104, many people fled to regions that105 seemed safer at this time, like Cyprus105, or the West106,where Sardinia was known to sailors due to sea routes andtrade. Thus, a situation of permanent culture contact was created on the island. Innovation and improvisation aremore intense in zones of culture contact and “hybrid cul-tures” resulting from the latter, be it due to migration, col-onisation or “entanglement”, can bring about the devel-opment of entirely new social and material creations107.The bronzetti are a part of this phenomenon, beingclearly of Sardinian origin, but incorporating archetypesand symbolism which are a part of a general Mediterra-nean religious ideology. Cypriot figurines have been as-sumed to have inspired Sardinians108. But they are not sty-listically similar and figurine-output is much higher inSardinia.

    [/Spoiler]




    https://www.worldhistory.org/Etruscan_Art/

    [Spoiler]

    [/Spoiler]
    Last edited by Wanderer; 25-10-22 at 09:36.

  13. #388
    Regular Member Wanderer's Avatar
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    Archetype M is wearing an plius cap

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    Regular Member mount123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ysical-Stature
    I think that it is very appropriate in this thread because thanks to Lazaridis et al., we now know multiple cases of I2a1a2-M423 cases from the prehistoric Balkans, including I2 from Mesolithic Montenegro.
    What multiple papers on Balkan aDNA genetics have shown is that I-Y3120/I2a-Slav has arrived in the Balkans in the early medieval with the Slavic migrations. Slavic lineages are absent in prehistoric South East Europe and anyone who claims otherwise is worth to be ignored. I also recall other pseudo-scientific posts of yours, so there is a clear pattern.


    Last edited by mount123; 25-10-22 at 11:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    mount123 said: 26-08-22 10:32
    Regarding J2b-L283:
    In totality there are about 35 J2b-L283 samples of which the majority are from the Bronze Age and Iron Age East Adriatic.
    J2b-L283 has been proven to be the main haplogroup of the Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture and Classical Illyrians. The J2b-L283 samples in this study extend from Early Bronze Age 2500 BCE onwards. This aligns perfectly with all of the many J2b-L283 samples of the area we have gotten from previous papers.
    Samples from Illyrii proprie dicti (Montenegro and Shkodra) are mostly represented by J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297+.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Dear Albanian gentleman, you somewhat forgot to repeat your Pan-Albanian genetic theories that you had recently presented with an almost religious zeal
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ysical-Stature
    I think that it is very appropriate in this thread because thanks to Lazaridis et al., we now know multiple cases of I2a1a2-M423 cases from the prehistoric Balkans, including I2 from Mesolithic Montenegro. Since you were so insulted that I understimated your intelligence, you can present your counterarguments. In my next paper, I will quote them as "Albanian dude from the internet" - which is a widely recognized, reputable source.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    What multiple papers on Balkan aDNA genetics have shown is that I-Y3120/I2a-Slav has arrived in the Balkans in the early medieval with the Slavic migrations. Slavic lineages are absent in prehistoric South East Europe and anyone who claims otherwise is worth to be ignored. I also recall other pseudo-scientific posts of yours, so there is a clear pattern.


    Except that I-M170 is not Slavic but autochthonous in the Western Balkans and in Scandinavia. If the recent research by Lazaridis et al. did not convince you, I could demonstrate it with a single graph. But I am sorry - childishly behaving Pan-Albanians are not partners for a serious discussion with me. You must wait until the paper is published.

  16. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centrum99 View Post
    Except that I-M170 is not Slavic but autochthonous in the Western Balkans and in Scandinavia. If the recent research by Lazaridis et al. did not convince you, I could demonstrate it with a single graph. But I am sorry - childishly behaving Pan-Albanians are not partners for a serious discussion with me. You must wait until the paper is published.
    Hey Mr. Intellect, care to enlighten us poor pan-Albanians what ought the Lazaridis paper have convinced us of?
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 25-10-22 at 20:14.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  17. #392
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    MaybeMy J-L283 came from sardinia. Etruscan, sardinia and Iberian connection seems to be apparant to the pottery. Put that Connection also to the Daunian / Iapygian image I posted before. From the pdf.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ranean_setting
    [Spoiler]
    As the denomination already alludes, the mediterraneiz-zante fit into the iconographical tradition of the “oriental-izing” EIA Mediterranean if compared to Iron Age Iberian,Etruscan and Italian bronzetti (see below). This groupconsists of schematic and roundish smaller figurines withlittle to no details or decoration, and often with a dynamicposture which serves to give them an expressionistic ap-pearance

    126.Apart from the fixture for permanent installation,base plates which would enable movement of the statu-ettes are common. Less time and material went into themaking of the figurines of this group, as they are smallerand numerically fewer: 67 (25%) anthropomorphic whichare known to the author, and between 17 and 4319 (8% or20%) zoomorphic representations. Their often crude ac-complishment and lack of details means that time wassaved on decoration, hinting that it was only deemednecessary that the essentials should be depicted.3.3 Anthropomorphic representationsUta Abini (Fig. 2–4)The iconography of this group seems to follow a clear,repetitive code of representation. Most of the figurines(54%) depict warriors and archers (fig. 2,a–f; 3; 4,a–c.g),and among them, horned headdresses prevail. Theweaponry nearly always consists of a sword and roundshield, while only a single warrior carries a spear (fig. 7,f).Nine figurines of warriors which were found in Abini-Tetihave each four arms and eyes with each carrying twoshields and two swords. The important features of afighter are enhanced in these representations: extra eye-sight, extra strength and extra armament (fig. 2,b).Together with a “minotaur” from the group of uniquefigurines (fig. 2,v) they clearly refer to the supernaturalworld. Raising a hand in a benedictory pose, a trait often observed on Near Eastern cult figurines 20, is a frequentgestus among all archetypes and persists in the following mediterraneizzante style.Female figurines can be identified by breasts, longcloaks and headdresses, as well as often holding smallvessels such as bowls or “incense burners” (fig. 2,j–l).Three women are depicted with a small man on their fold and raising a blessing hand (fig. 2,s–t). The offerentes fi-gurines are represented carrying round objects, vessels,animal hides in one hand, as well as goats on theirshoulders (fig. 2,g–i). One group of bronzetti wearingpointed hats and cloaks (fig. 2,m–o) may representspecialists of divination if compared to later images ofEtruscan haruspices (fig. 16,d.e) and the related deity ofdivination, ‘Tages’.Another group consisting of the biggest figurines onaverage (19.3 to 39 cm), represent a male with a staff......



    ......
    Pistilliform swords: In Sardinia, this type has been found in Siniscola-Oroè, dating to the 11th century BC, andthree figurines of the Uta-artist (see below, fig. 2,a.r) ob-viously shoulder these swords22. These swords represent a21 Manunza 2008, 250–257.22 See also Lo Schiavo 1990a, 219–220.type common to the Atlantic Bronze Age, and the Black-moor/Braud/Huelva-Phase would be the last phase when pistilliform swords were still in use but already “bastante extraordinario”, which means they are mostly earlier than1050–930 cal. BC23.2.
    Votive swords: The first original Sardinian swordsare purely symbolic weapons since their size and alloymake them extremely fragile and therefore unusable inactual fighting24. Those artefacts were often fixed on theroof-tops and “tables of offerings” of sanctuaries and aretherefore associated to their construction. In the Albuc-ciu-Arzachena hoard, votive sword fragments were foundwith pieces of Cypriot oxhide ingots in a Nuragic pot of theLBA, 1300–1150 BC25. The fixing of bronzetti to the pointsof votive swords (fig. 3,a; 7,c), as well as the fact thatsome warrior bronzetti also carry votive swords (fig. 4,b.g)underline the cultic and chronological connection of bothobjects26.3.


    3.5 Boats (fig. 8)
    Depalmas who wrote an outstanding monograph on thisgroup of artefacts44, places them chronologically in theLBA (12th–11th century BC) and the EIA (10th–8th centuryBC). The iconographic complex involves: The boat with ahorned land animal’s head, the plough, land animals onboard, the nuraghe, and birds. Apart from the latter, boatsexclusively transport symbols of on-shore life. Stylisti-cally, they are all of the Uta-Abini school.The figurehead of the bronze boats is always a hornedland animal45, that is: a bull, occasionally incorporatingwater-bird features, a deer or a goat. Scenes with a repre-sentation of two bulls on a yoke, moving in the oppositedirection as the bow, can be found. In one case, a bull islead by its horns by an anthropomorphic figure, which isthe only human passenger known so far (fig. 8,e). Domes-ticated land animals, dogs and pigs, are often on board.Birds are frequently sitting on the mast, the railing or on
    nuraghe towers, which also frequently appear on boats(fig. 8,a.c). An exotic exception is one depiction of a boatwith a monkey46.A number of crude clay boat-miniatures, some withzoomorphic figureheads, has been found mostly in nur-aghi. Burnt on the inside, they appear to have been usedas lamps or incense-burners, though the same functioncannot be assumed for the bronze versions that do notshow traces of exposure to fire47. Clay models of boatsfrom the LBA are also known from Crete, Cyprus, Lípariand the Levant48. In particular the Cypriot examples can be seen to have animal figureheads of bulls and birds49. Abig difference with these examples is that Cypriot pas-sengers are always humans and not animals. The Byblos hoard (c. 1500–1200 BC) contains several bronze boats, one of which is steered by a monkey50.The symbolic complex present on the navicelle, in-cluding the protagonist-animals of Sardinian iconography in general, as well as the monkey, but not the nuraghi, ap-pear in EIA Italy, worked into a mediterran eizzante style.The cult-wagon from Lucera51 and the kettle of Bisenzio-Olmo Bello involve most of these symbols, and both in-clude a ploughing scene (fig. 17). Human representationson both of these resemble Sardinian EIA figurines.
    ......


    4. “Philistine crown”: Only one figurine by the Utaartist wears this headdress30 which is known from the “seapeople”, mostly Peleset (Philistines) on the Medinet Haburelief, dated to 1176 BC31. There is archaeological evidencefor the presence of Philistines in the Gulf of Oristano32.
    Sardinian EIA imagery, centred around fertility andsexuality, fits in with the iconography of figurative bronzes evolving in Iberia (fig. 15), the alpine region, and Italy (fig. 16; 17) during the “orientalizing” period33. Whilethe Uta-Abini style is self-consciously Sardinian and em-ploys typical Western-Mediterranean elements rooted in LBA iconography alongside many unique Sardinian char-acteristics, the mediterraneizzante style is connected to the Italian mainland and a rather uniform Mediterraneanstyle and iconography, emerging at a time of intensePhoenician trade. This would suggest an origination in the 9th century (confirmed by dating of the Antas bronzetto34,fig. 6,i), a climax of production in the 8th–6th centuries BCwith some late examples in the 5th. No artefact types canbe recognized due to the strong abstraction present in this stye.

    Mediterraneizzante (Fig. 6)The iconography of this group is less repetitive, but sex is an obvious theme. Contrary to the former group, phallicrepresentations, hermaphrodites and nudes are present.Warriors are partly nude, ithyphallic, and are never de-picted with horned headgear. All of the defining symbolsof the Uta-Abini group, such as the gamma-hilted daggersand clearly defined swords, along with the emphasized haircuts and dress, have been abandoned. A heavy rup-ture in iconography is obvious. The figurine size in thisgroup has also diminished (4.5–17.3 cm, average 10 cm)
    [/Spoiler]
    [Spoiler]

    Contexts
    4.1 Sanctuaries
    Sanctuaries Unfortunately, only about 50 % of the bronzetti are docu-mented in their original archaeological context. How-ever, it is clear that the most common use of figurativebronzetti was their visible and enduring exposureat sanctuaries dating from the LBA to the EIA, wherethey were fixed on stone bases with lead (fig. 10,b). 87%of the anthropomorphic and 46.2% of the zoomorphicfigurines from known contexts come from sacred struc-tures.Both styles – Uta-Abini and mediterraneizzante – canbe found together at sanctuaries. It has to be taken into ac-count that older bronzetti have been removed, probablyfor metal-recycling, in many cases. They were obviouslycut off at their feet, which often remained with the at-tached lead-fixing in the stone. A splendid example is the“altar”-fragment from Nurdole, where a figurine of “orien-talizing” style is placed very close to the remaining feet ofan Uta-Abini bronzetto (fig. 10,b, centre)

    settingWhile votive swords and bronzetti were producednearly exclusively for display at sanctuaries, most of theSardinian bronze-work and imports from the LBA and EIAwere also found there58. This shows that the accumulationof precious metal objects was an important element of cultand social practices. No valuable bronze objects from Nu-ragic times, apart two EIA exceptions mentioned below,are found in contexts (i.e. tombs, houses) which wouldallow them to be associated with individuals, i.e. repre-senting personal wealth.


    ....
    4.2 Tombs and other contexts
    Three statuettes were found in Sardinian single graves:One representation of a mediterraneizzante warrior atAntas62 and two of Uta-Abini archers at Sardara63, withboth tombs dating to the EIA. It has to be mentioned that single graves from the EIA are extremely rare, and apart from the two examples mentioned above, they have only been found at the Monte Prama site, where they do not contain grave-goods. In later periods, navicelle also ended up in a Punic and even a Roman tomb64.Some bronzetti, especially navicelle, have been foundin Villanovian and Etruscan religious contexts (tombs anda sanctuary hoard) on the Italian peninsula, e.g. anUta-Abini anthropomorphic figurine and two miniaturevessels in a tomb from the second half of the 9th century BCin Cav.alupo di Vulci65 (fig. 4,e)

    ....

    Function

    Bronzetti are often seen as votive offerings donated bymembers of a stratified society at the sanctuaries, wherethe status of the donator would determine motive (in asense of self-representation) and quality of the figurine68.This implies that they are a major expression of social in-equality. Tronchetti and Van Dommelen accordingly see them as artefacts of the elite69. I prefer to see them as com-municative artefacts 70, a more neutral category, as their main use for society is to communicate religious and ideological concepts.“However, there are artefacts that are not produced for mechanical use (…), but rather are designed exclusively for human communication; that is, to be perceived and to signify (to refer to entities, imaginary or not). (…)As such, they can be classified as ‘means of production’ inhuman communication and learning.” 71The four-armed warriors and the chimaera mentionedabove are not the only references to supernatural spheres.In their context at the sanctuaries and in their Mediterra-nean setting, the bronzetti are cult images. As observedabove, the horned warrior and the horned archer are themost frequent motifs of the Uta-Abini bronzetti. Therefore,the archetype of the horned warrior will be compared to both the artwork and communicative artefacts of some of Sardinian’s contact regions. Shared iconography can be aresult of culture contact and can help in the establishmentof the chronological framework in which it emerged andwas used in a defined area. For the moment, the followingobservations in this chapter are the current working-hy-pothesis and further research will be necessary to confirmthe ideas expressed on the obvious similarities of Mediter-ranean LBA and EIA imagery.

    Horned warriors in the LBA WestIn the LBA of the Western Mediterranean, depictions of warriors with horned headgear are well known from Iberian stelae 72 (fig. 11,a–c) and horned-warrior statue men-hirs from Corsica73 (fig. 12)

    2010.Iconography is strikingly similar in Sardinia and Ibe-ria, where the warrior is equipped with a sword, roundshield and sometimes a bow. Differences in equipment in-clude the spear and wagon, both of which are frequent inIberia, but extremely rare to absent in Sardinia. Both re-gions developed distinguishing pictorial art in the LBA,using techniques and picture carriers according to re-gional preferences, but sharing the iconography of thehorned warrior. The so-called diademada-stelae, whichappear to constitute a female company of the Iberian war-rior (fig. 11,b.d), might cautiously be seen in relationshipto the female entities of the bronzetti.Iberia and Sardinia were in close contact during theLBA and EIA, exchanging metal objects and techniques74.Pistilliform and carp’s tongue swords were in use in bothregions contemporaneously. Comparing the typologicallyanalogous finds from both regions in their respective con-texts helps to confirm the dating of objects. Brandherm, inhis monograph on the Iberian swords of the Bronce Final,analysed the types depicted on the stelae75, with the chro-nological result that the types in use from the 12th, like the pistilli form, to the 9th century BC carp’s tongue blades arerepresented. More recent types are hardly identifiable.Noteworthy are also the representation of an ox-hideingot on an Iberian stelae (fig. 11,a), an ox-hide ingotshaped altar in Iberia76, Cypriot artefacts that have been discovered in Iberian LBA contexts77, all of which suggesta connection via Sardinia. In Huelva, nuragic pottery andbronze artefacts confirm traffic for the end of the LBA andthe EIA78.The Corsican statue menhirs, which include hornedswordsmen, recognizable through cavities on the menhirhead that served to allow the insertion of bulls horns (fig.12,a), are chronologically placed in the Bronze Moyen/Bronze Final79. A strong connection between the statue-menhirs and water can be detected, especially at foun-tains and the confluences of rivers80. Water was a keyfeature of Sardinian sanctuaries, which contained ico-nography, as well. Another outstanding feature is thephallic appearance of the backside of many statue-men-hirs (fig. 12,c). Female representations are so far unknownfrom LBA Corsica.

    ...


    5.2
    Horned warriors in the LBA EastThe Atlantic and the Mediterranean were connected by steady traffic as well as the exchange of goods and people, and the island of Sardinia seems to have played a leading role in this network. Its most important partner to the East seems to have been Cyprus. Cypriot ox-hide copper ingotsfound on Sardinia are part of the rise of LBA metallurgy,trade and close contact between the two islands 81.The Eastern Mediterranean is the only region that can be compared to Sardinia for both the general use of bronze sculpture as a means of representation, and the quantity of figurines. Cyprus revealed few bronze statuettes, which date to the 12th century BC82 (fig. 14,a–d), while Sardinian production is topped only by the Levant and Anatolia
    (fig. 13) in showing evidence of a long-lasting tradition of sculpture83.The Eastern representations were cult-images84, and the horned warrior is understood to have been a protagonist (fig. 13; 14,a.c).
    Horned headdresses are reserved for gods, although they are not obligatory in designating a diety. Kristiansen85 stated: “It is obvious that in the Eastern Mediterranean, Asia Minor and the Near East horned anthropomorphic beings or those with horned helmets represented divinities.” He wrote this with respect to abronze statuette from Grevensvaenge, Denmark, c. 1000BC (fig. 14,e). So it seems that the idea might have travelled as far north as Scandinavia”. Pictorial representations of human warriors wearing horned headgear are known from the Eastern Mediterra-nean. In Egypt, on the Medinet Habu Relief of Ramses III,which has been dated to 1176 BC, some of the ‘seapeople’86, especially the Shardana, are characterized by it.On the Mycenaean ‘warrior vase’, dated to LH III B–C (c.1200 BC), a procession of warriors with horned headgearis shown, also involving the symbolism of the bull itself inthe vessel’s handles87. Thus, there most likely were warriors in the 12th century BC Mediterranean who actually did wear horned helmets in combat, which is hardly a sur-prise, since such a headdress would directly refer to the horned divinity with the evident martial aspect, and mighthave served to invoke the protection of the latter.
    The most famous horned warrior-deity of the East isthe so-called ‘storm god’88. In Anatolia, he was believed to have been the ruler of the ‘subterranean ocean’ and was venerated at holy wells, fountains and sanctuaries. This is due to geological conditions in large parts of Anatolia,where water is mostly present in the subterranean streams of the karst regions89. The same geological features arepresent in Sardinia
    . In the Levant, the ‘storm god’ wasmore associated with the rainstorms, which constitute the most important source of live-giving water in the region90.Thus, it seems that each region adapted the archetype toits own situation, but the essence remained the same: The‘storm god’ was a god of fertility, weather, water and war,sometimes a divine hunter91. All these associations appearto be evident in the Western Mediterranean horned war-rior images.

    Meanings of the Horned Warrior The symbolism of a deity usually includes a level of mean-ing which corresponds to the natural force which it con-trols, a level which corresponds to a social function it pro-tects and a level where it manifests in sacred animals orplants whose life-cycles might depend on its good-will. Theidea behind creating the image of a deity is to make it ap-proachable, to gain influence on the forces controlled by it.Once the decision is taken to visualize a divine entity,it can be venerated and approached in the image of itssacred animal, and, once people take the step to personifya deity, in its anthropomorphic image92, a chimaera of thesacred animal and the human form may emerge, with at-tributes such as the horns of a bull serving to highlight thesupernatural nature of the image.

    5.4 Change: Arrival of the ithyphallicsThe images of ‘horned warriors’ were all but extinct inthe West during the period called “orientalization”93(800–600 BC). In Italy, where bronze sculpture only began its career in the EIA, and in the iconography of the Iberian bronzetti94, the ‘horned warrior’ was never a motif, while the image of the bull remained important.Instead, representations of warriors and other male figurines of the 8th–5th centuries BC from Sardinia, Iberia and 103 Italy are mostly naked and phallic, while females are often naked or, as in Iberia, wear long dresses (fig. 6; 15–17).Hermaphroditic representations appear everywhere.While the essence of the warrior archetype might be unchanged, its iconography changes radically in thesense that attributes which express regional identity areno longer displayed anymore, as was the case with typi-cal weapon types or dress in the LBA imagery. Fertility at-tributes are expressed instead. In the LBA, it is only thephallic Corsican statue menhirs which explicitly show thisaspect. The fact that regional identity is not put into sceneanymore points towards changes in the socio-politicalrealm. [BFurthermore, imports of or locally produced figurines of clearly oriental and Egyptian gods spread in the Western Mediterranean via the Phoenicians.[/b]

    5.5 Symbolism of some other archetypes
    The bull can be said to be the most important animal inSardinian and Mediterranean iconography. In the East, it is connected to the ‘storm god’ and to Ishtar, later to the Greek ‘storm god’ Zeus. In Iberia, the bull’s image appears first in conjunction with the horned warriors of the LBA/EIA stelae, and then becomes a common motif in Iberian art. The animals appearing in Italian and Etruscan im-agery of the EIA are strikingly similar to the Sardinian animal-bronzes95 (fig. 17).The vessel-bearing female (fig. 2,j–l; 6,l–n; 14,d; 15,f;16a; 17) is a popular figure in the art of the EIA Hallstattregions and Italy96. Looking to the East, Negbi includedsome LBA figurines of this type from the Near East in herSyro-Egyptian group97. The Sardinian statuettes might beamong the oldest preserved representations of a female divinity associated with ritual drinking in Western Europe. The offerentes carry mostly round objects, vessels oranimal hides in one hand or goats on their shoulders, andcould represent divinities of agriculture or pastoralism of-fering their gifts.95
    [/Spoiler]
    [Spoiler]

    Origins

    This chapter is again to be seen as a working-hypothesisthat has to be supported by further research: an emergingpicture from the study of the socio-political situation inthe Mediterranean in the LBA and EIA. Metallurgy reacheda remarkably high level in Sardinia in the 14th century BC,when a rupture between Middle Bronze Age (MBA) metal-lurgy and the LBA “bronze boom” is evident99. The use ofCypriot metal-working tools100, as well as the use of Iron inthe LBA101, as sophisticated technologies known in Sardi-nia straight from the LBA, imply that knowledge arrivedfrom the Atlantic and the Eastern Mediterranean at thattime and was integrated quickly in Nuragic society.


    Of the metal forms, Cypriot types dominate tools forworking metal, and these are further developed by Sar-dinians. Other tools, especially axes, as well as mostweapon types, are clearly derived from peninsular, Ibe-rian or Atlantic types, such as pistilliform and carp’stongue swords and spearheads. The only items of in-disputable Sardinian origin are the votive swords andgamma-hilted daggers, both symbolic weapons. Cypriotshapes are used for ritual objects like tripods and for toiletequipment. The most distinguishing Sardinian ritual ob-jects are the bronzetti. Objects of ornament are rare andnearly always imports, except for the dress-pins which re-sisted the introduction of fibulae until the EIA102

    Major changes took place in the whole Mediterranean around 1200 BC, most notably crisis and decline of the ar-chaic states of the East103. Facing the violent destruction of their homesteads104, many people fled to regions that105 seemed safer at this time, like Cyprus105, or the West106,where Sardinia was known to sailors due to sea routes andtrade. Thus, a situation of permanent culture contact was created on the island. Innovation and improvisation aremore intense in zones of culture contact and “hybrid cul-tures” resulting from the latter, be it due to migration, col-onisation or “entanglement”, can bring about the devel-opment of entirely new social and material creations107.The bronzetti are a part of this phenomenon, beingclearly of Sardinian origin, but incorporating archetypesand symbolism which are a part of a general Mediterra-nean religious ideology. Cypriot figurines have been as-sumed to have inspired Sardinians108. But they are not sty-listically similar and figurine-output is much higher inSardinia.

    [/Spoiler]




    https://www.worldhistory.org/Etruscan_Art/

    [Spoiler]

    [/Spoiler]
    The statue of the Lion with snake tail and a second head ( goat ) is the symbol of the Lycian people from SW Anatolia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia

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    Since this is a thread about Anatolia and Southern Arc, I will share a song/video a friend showed me the other day, by a Greek group ensemble, that encapsulates beautifully the tradition of the place.

    It is sang in pontic greek (first part) and turkish (second part).



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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Since this is a thread about Anatolia and Southern Arc, I will share a song/video a friend showed me the other day, by a Greek group ensemble, that encapsulates beautifully the tradition of the place.

    It is sang in pontic greek (first part) and turkish (second part).


    Hmmmm... the lyra is a Thracian lyra and not a Pontic one. Still enjoyed it though. I do like orchestral renditions of traditional songs toggle more depth plus the recordings are first class.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Hmmmm... the lyra is a Thracian lyra and not a Pontic one. Still enjoyed it though.

    The lyre is the standard Byzantine one, the song is not Pontic in form, by the way, just the first part of the lyrics.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_lyra

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    The statue of the Lion with snake tail and a second head ( goat ) is the symbol of the Lycian people from SW Anatolia


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia
    Santa Vittoria Serra is in sardinia, compare with iberian B type. They are the same !
    The naked statue on the ground of santa vittoria I am talking about


    The one in the back stuck in the rock on right is the same as etruscan C !


    Iberian punic woman bearing offerings similar to Iberian J K L



    Closer look at figurestypes U V
    Helmet and half man Half bull Which is synonamous with the iberian bicha de balazote.




    [IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221025/838722585d25a1a99eb9d79652589043.jpg
    [/IMG]

    Type U with Illyrian Helmet, but if the figurine is older than the greek helmets than the greek helmets didn't originate in greece. Or at the least existed much earlier

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_type_helmet

    According to archaeological evidence, the "Illyrian" type helmet evolved from the Kegelhelm (or Kegel type) of the Archaic Period found in Argos.[1] The earliest "Illyrian" type helmets were developed in a workshop located in the northwestern Peloponnese (possibly Olympia), although the first Type II "Illyrian" helmets were created in Corinthian workshops.[3] The first Type III helmets were created in workshops situated somewhere on the Illyrian coast of the Adriatic.[7] The "Illyrian" type helmet did not obstruct the wearer's critical senses of vision though the first two varieties hampered hearing. There were four types of these helmets and all were open faced:

    Type I (c. 700–640 BC) left the neck unprotected and hampered hearing.

    Type II (c. 600 BC) offered neck protection and again hampered hearing.

    Type III (c. 550 BC) offered neck protection and allowed better hearing.

    Type IV (c. 500 BC) was similar to Type III but hearing was not impaired at all.

    The Illyrian type helmet was used by the ancient Greeks,[8] Etruscans,[9] Scythians,[10] and became popular with the Illyrians who later adopted it.[8][11] A variety of the helm had also spread to Italy based on its appearance on ivory reliefs and on a silver bowl at the "Bernardini" tomb at Praeneste.[5] The helmet became obsolete in most parts of Greece in the early 5th century BC. Its use in Illyria had ended by the 4th century BC.[12]


    Arch type W wearying a Phrygian Cap
    ]
    Last edited by Wanderer; 25-10-22 at 21:09.

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    I just encountered a supposed daunian stele that has a swastika, what the hell?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wanderer View Post
    I just encountered a supposed daunian stele that has a swastika, what the hell?

    i was taught the origin of the swastika was in Central Asia and western China ..............when I was doing my chinese studies in school ( many moons ago)

    the swastika was not on an angle IIRC

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    i was taught the origin of the swastika was in Central Asia and western China ..............when I was doing my chinese studies in school ( many moons ago)

    the swastika was not on an angle IIRC
    I knew slavic people had it as a symbol but Daunians are pre slavic whih is confusing.

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    Seems like it was more spread out than I thought. It was even in sub sahara

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