The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Regarding J2b-L283:

In totality there are about 35 J2b-L283 samples of which the majority are from the Bronze Age and Iron Age East Adriatic.

J2b-L283 has been proven to be the main haplogroup of the Proto-Illyrian Cetina culture and Classical Illyrians. The J2b-L283 samples in this study extend from Early Bronze Age 2500 BCE onwards. This aligns perfectly with all of the many J2b-L283 samples of the area we have gotten from previous papers.

Samples from Illyrii proprie dicti (Montenegro and Shkodra) are mostly represented by J2b-L283>Z638>Z1297+.


The upcoming Lalueza-Fox paper will add another 50+ J2b-L283 samples from the same archeological contexts to the list.

The samples will be added to the J2b-L283 map https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewe...S&ll=48.74992772963409,27.633824999999966&z=5 by Veseli once the bam files are published and deeper subclades determined.



And yet again you lie and sweep R1b under the rug cause it doesn't fit your agenda.
 
And yet again you lie and sweep R1b under the rug cause it doesn't fit your agenda.
I kindly ask you to keep a more civil tone since that would be more appropriate for this thread.

I said regarding J2b-L283 and it indeed is the main haplogroup of EBA Proto-Illyrian Cetina and the groups I have just mentioned. My post was not about TC Celtic sites in the Balkans nor Urnfield dispersals hence why that has nothing to do with my post.

Now it would be great if you stopped attacking me and others and stop with the name-calling.
 
My post was not about TC Celtic sites in the Balkans nor Urnfield dispersals hence why that has nothing to do with my post.

:LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL: Here we go. R1bs can't be Illyrian. They're "Celtic sites" and "Urnfield dispersals". Forget the fact that they're a steppe-heavy Indo-European people.
 
I kindly ask you to keep a more civil tone since that would be more appropriate for this thread.

I said regarding J2b-L283 and it indeed is the main haplogroup of EBA Proto-Illyrian Cetina and the groups I have just mentioned. My post was not about TC Celtic sites in the Balkans nor Urnfield dispersals hence why that has nothing to do with my post.

Now it would be great if you stopped attacking me and others and stop with the name-calling.
I repeat it again. The J2b-L283 Bronze Age samples are from EBA Cetina and not TC Celtic or Urnfield dispersals. The TC/UF sites are not part of EBA Cetina or Dinaric (late phase Cetina) culture.
 
The amount of copium I've seen from this paper is truly unparalleled. I see Michalis is crying over at Anthrogenica about ancient Macedonian samples. His excuse was "Northern Macedonians" were Paeonian, when every indication shows they were a sibling population. Now the "southern" Macedonian ones come out, and he's "not sure" they're the "core of Macedonia". :LOL::LOL:

People talk about "Nordic" propaganda of ancient Greece, but they don't talk about the modern Greek propaganda of ancient Greece. Sure, Athens was Greece proper. No issue there. Thebes was Greek. No argument there. But why are we ignoring ancient sources calling Epirotes and Macedonians "barbarians"? Why are we ignoring the Epirotes/Macedonians intermarrying with Illyrians, and the fact that southern Illyrian elites also spoke Greek/had Greek names? Were Illyrians also "Greeks", because they educated themselves in Greek and some donned Greek names.

Unfortunately, for most western historians, "it's all Greek to me" is their motto. But read those historical sources. Read what the ancient Greeks were saying about Macedonians

Demosthenes, "said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave."
 
The amount of copium I've seen from this paper is truly unparalleled. I see Michalis is crying over at Anthrogenica about ancient Macedonian samples. His excuse was "Northern Macedonians" were Paeonian, when every indication shows they were a sibling population. Now the "southern" Macedonian ones come out, and he's "not sure" they're the "core of Macedonia". :LOL::LOL:

People talk about "Nordic" propaganda of ancient Greece, but they don't talk about the modern Greek propaganda of ancient Greece. Sure, Athens was Greece proper. No issue there. Thebes was Greek. No argument there. But why are we ignoring ancient sources calling Epirotes and Macedonians "barbarians"? Why are we ignoring the Epirotes/Macedonians intermarrying with Illyrians, and the fact that southern Illyrian elites also spoke Greek/had Greek names? Were Illyrians also "Greeks", because they educated themselves in Greek and some donned Greek names.

Unfortunately, for most western historians, "it's all Greek to me" is their motto. But read those historical sources. Read what the ancient Greeks were saying about Macedonians

Demosthenes, "said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave."

Here they come again the "Greeks are Albanians" pseudo scientific comments and "Evil Greek propaganda".

This is embarrassing.
 
Here they come again the "Greeks are Albanians" pseudo scientific comments and "Evil Greek propaganda".

This is embarrassing.

What's embarrassing you constantly lying about everything. Where did I say "Greeks are Albanians". I am talking about the origins of Macedonians/Epirotes who were in ancient times called "barbarians" by Greeks themselves. That's not me saying. That's them.

It might seem trivial, but Greeks have constantly bullied their neighbours based on "history". They blackmailed Macedonia into changing their name or else they were going to block accession to the EU. They were "supposedly" the heir to the Macedonians. They disparaged Macedonians in ancient times, called them barbarians, but for the actions of a man and his famous son, now they're Greeks :LOL::LOL:

And when this paper comes out showing those Macedonians being genetically identical to southern Illyrians, guys like Michalis are "not sure" about the results.
 
The amount of copium I've seen from this paper is truly unparalleled. I see Michalis is crying over at Anthrogenica about ancient Macedonian samples. His excuse was "Northern Macedonians" were Paeonian, when every indication shows they were a sibling population. Now the "southern" Macedonian ones come out, and he's "not sure" they're the "core of Macedonia". :LOL::LOL:


Macedonians being close, or even identical, to Illyrians doesn't surprise me personally.
 
How do these Macedonian samples look like. I don't have a horse in this race, just being curious.

There are two main sets. One from northern....North Macedonia (mouthful), and one from southern/east of Ohrid.

The east of Ohrid area is clearly ancient Macedonian territory and are pretty much identical to southern Illyrians.
 
There are two main sets. One from northern....North Macedonia (mouthful), and one from southern/east of Ohrid.

The east of Ohrid area is clearly ancient Macedonian territory and are pretty much identical to southern Illyrians.

Thanks, as you can see I edited my post.
 
Demosthenes, "said of Philip that Philip was not Greek, nor related to Greeks but comes from Macedonia where a person could not even buy a decent slave."

Demosthenes was a mortal political enemy of Philip and would use slander to discredit him so no surprises there. Macedon having affinity with Illyria is expected actually, they were kin to the Epirotans as well. In classical times they were both Greek speakers too btw. There is a reason the Macedon idiom is described as Μακεδονιστι by Greeks and not βαρβαριστι, you know.
 
At least you're not making excuses like Michalis :bigsmile:


That's a bit out of left field, why would I make excuses, have you ever read any of my posts?
 
Macedonians being close, or even identical, to Illyrians doesn't surprise me personally.

What bothers me the most is that after this results I'm afraid that the DNA analysis of the tomb of Vergina (Philip II & co) will be postponed for a long time. Really a mised opportunity to know more about a possible importan figure of antiquitie.
 
What bothers me the most is that after this results I'm afraid that the DNA analysis of the tomb of Vergina (Philip II & co) will be postponed for a long time. Really a mised opportunity to know more about a possible importan figure of antiquitie.


That was a slim chance anyways, Greek archaeological service is the equivalent of ultra-deep state-like organization to begin with.
 
I'll write here my impressions about the three papers since it seems to me it is the main thread about them all:

Nothing surprising has been published, all that I expected has been proposed, mistakes included.

As for the Greeks, the data strongly support my scenario that the myth of the expulsion of the Pelasgians by the Greeks was a remembrance of a very thorough population replacement by Mycenaeans at the expense of the previous inhabitants; the fact that there were largely two clusters with a few individuals in between indicate that the Mycenaeans had recently arrived thus there was not yet time for genetic homogenization, and most of the Mycenaean samples are on the side that is richer in steppe ancestry (though still low compared to other areas of Europe); as it was customary for IE speakers, they not only replaced the locals but incorporated a few in their ranks (which must have happened before Mycenaeans arrived in south Greece, when they underwent their ethnogenesis in northern Greece).

My biggest complain isn't about their view that early proto-IE was spoken in Anatolia/Armenia, for I see that most people can see through it, but about a very important detail that far fewer people are going to notice: how could they conclude that Anatolia remained genetically stable through the IA? One can see the jump in EHG ancestry from the BA to the IA, which remained stable till the late antiquity. Even the Gordion samples that show "merely" about 2% EHG aren't very different from a subset of Mycenaeans, and in the supplementary text they say that it betokens either a small contribution from the north Balkans or a greater one from the south, and they leave it at it.
Thank heavens that supposed Anatolians (here confirmed indeed that they were Anatolians) had already been modelled in the Danubian limes paper and they came out as half Anatolia_BA and half Balkan_IA, so a great movement of people from the Balkans to Anatolia did happen between the BA and the IA and it resulted in a significant genetic turn over.
 
That was a slim chance anyways, Greek archaeological service is the equivalent of ultra-deep state-like organization to begin with.

Do you think the two E-V13 brothers from Byzantine (Nicaea) finds are either Greek or Thracian-Bithynian by descend?
 
Do you think the two E-V13 brothers from Byzantine finds are either Greek or Thracian-Bithynian by descend?


Sure, why not, Thracians were an important part of the Eastern Empire, they eventually produced prominent emperors like the Komnenians, no less.
 
Personally I don't find it weird that ancient Macedonians Epirotes and South illyrians are pretty much identical, if you look at the modern inhabitants of these regions you can see how close they are autosomally
 
Demosthenes was a mortal political enemy of Philip and would use slander to discredit him so no surprises there. Macedon having affinity with Illyria is expected actually, they were kin to the Epirotans as well. In classical times they were both Greek speakers too btw. There is a reason the Macedon idiom is described as Μακεδονιστι by Greeks and not βαρβαριστι, you know.
This is your personal interpretation. The historical fact is another and Demosthenes said it clearly:
"...οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ᾽ ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι."
"...he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."
Demosthenes-Third Philippic 31
 

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