The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[Hawk]

Yes, it's very interesting and I intend to read up about it, but I'm not speaking about the incoming steppe admixed people. What I'm saying is what I've been saying for the last more than 5 years when we first heard about a Bulgarian sample which was "Tuscan" like. The authors of that paper picked "Tuscan like" because their only modern sources for comparison were from 1000 Genomes. Now, with more sophisticated analyses, we're told some of these Bulgarian samples were "Mycenaean like". Well, the amount of steppe in a lot of Mycenaeans ran from 0 to 3% to an average of 10%. The rest was Anatolian Neolithic and CHG/Iran Neo. That genetic profile could fit the farmers of Bulgaria, not these incomers. Doesn't it make more sense that someone you sacrifice would be from the people you conquered, not one of your own? That's certainly what Davidski thought at the time. Maybe for once he was right.

If this sacrificed sample was E-V13 then I think it's certainly possible that was a local farmer ancestry. Certainly makes sense to me given the close proximity to Anatolia and its lineages.

There was also 1 sample R1a-Z93 among them, virtually indistinguishable from the rest of them, he was probably what they call Noua-Sabatinovska Culture which mixed with Carpathian people before moving down.

Dubovac Zuto Brdo was a Bronze Age Culture with Neolithic-like features, the ritual pits and human sacrifices are well known features of Thracian religion and previously of Eastern Urnfielders (some of the sacrifices were newborns or young adults), it's impossible to explain the Moesian and South Pannonian E-V13 rich populations right after. The EBA/MBA previous heavy steppe population of Bulgaria was annihilated by them, or they ran away. Otherwise, it's easy to falsify or confirm this with subsequent samples, and subsequent and modern samples show E-V13 en masse among them.

The common burials for these people was cremation, but also pit burials which can include criminals within their society, human religious sacrifices but also sometimes common people.

Perhaps a closer look on Thracian religion clarifies this:

Human sacrifice to the god Zalmoxis


Some of the Thracian tribes, like the Getae, performed human sacrifice to the god Zalmoxis. A messenger was chosen who was brought to a high rock while below him the people held up three spears. The messenger was thrown onto the spears and if he died, it was considered that his soul went to the god to send the message. If he survived, however, he was accused of being a bad person unworthy of meeting Zalmoxis. Later, Orpheus substituted the human sacrifice with sacrifice that didn’t require spilling blood.

https://theculturetrip.com/europe/b...cian-rituals-that-only-bulgarians-know-about/

Otherwise, Oroku Saki can explain far more better than me.

EDIT: I think i overlooked and it doesn't seem like Bulgarian archaeologists classify them as human sacrifices, most of the buried look like they are newborns. But the pits are without doubt classified and called Thracian pits.

One of the most important features of the complex is the human remains discov-ered in some of the pits. Entire skeletons or single human bones were unearthed in 19pits and belonged to 22 individuals. In most cases the remains represent inhumations;there are only two examples of burned adult human bones. Anthropological studiesreveal that the remains in nine of the pits belong to small children, often newborn oreven premature (


Sex determination was possible for six of the individuals, allof whom were male.The situation in pit 118 demands particular attention, since two human skeletonsof adult males, aged 45–50 and 50–60, were discovered there. The skeletons werelying on their right sides, close to one another with bent arms and legs. Anthropo-logical studies show that the skull of the elder individual has traces of trepanation,which he survived (


This is the first evidence of this medical treatment in early Iron Age Thrace and undoubtedly speaks in favour of the high social status of the deceased

https://www.academia.edu/588112/Ritual_Pit_Complexes_in_Iron_Age_Thrace_The_Case_Study_of_Svilengrad

 

[Angela]

There was also 1 sample R1a-Z93 among them, virtually indistinguishable from the rest of them, he was probably what they call Noua-Sabatinovska Culture which mixed with Carpathian people before moving down.

Dubovac Zuto Brdo was a Bronze Age Culture with Neolithic-like features, the ritual pits and human sacrifices are well known features of Thracian religion and previously of Eastern Urnfielders (some of the sacrifices were newborns or young adults), it's impossible to explain the Moesian and South Pannonian E-V13 rich populations right after. The EBA/MBA previous heavy steppe population of Bulgaria was annihilated by them, or they ran away. Otherwise, it's easy to falsify or confirm this with subsequent samples, and subsequent and modern samples show E-V13 en masse among them.

The common burials for these people was cremation, but also pit burials which can include criminals within their society, human religious sacrifices but also sometimes common people.

Perhaps a closer look on Thracian religion clarifies this:



Otherwise, Oroku Saki can explain far more better than me.

EDIT: I think i overlooked and it doesn't seem like Bulgarian archaeologists classify them as human sacrifices, most of the buried look like they are newborns. But the pits are without doubt classified and called Thracian pits.

My problem with all of this is that we have not, to my knowledge, found any E-V13 or J2b2, for that matter, on the steppe. I may be wrong, and if so someone can correct me, but I only saw the precursor to E-V13 among these Bulgarian samples, and we have that precursor already present in the Neolithic Balkans. It could also have been in the Carpathians and we just haven't found it.

J2b2, if I remember correctly, has been found "south" of the Caucasus, not on the steppe.

I asked up thread if the E-V13 or precursor bearing samples are the Mycenaean like samples, but I didn't get an answer. If so, I think the most likely explanation is that there indeed remained EBA and MBA people in the area. It's just that we wouldn't normally find their burials. I find it hard to believe this was some line which came in from further north. Rather, it might have been a local lineage absorbed by the steppe admixed people which then expanded.

 

[Silesian]

View attachment 8513

The user Arthwr has a made a map about R1b-PF7562 branch

He compiled data from academic papers and got this numbers

Kosovo - 9/114 (7,89 %);
Macedonia - 4/79 (5,06 %);
Albania - 11/223 (4,93 %);
Serbia - 7/235 (2,98 %);
Armenia - 5/176 (2,84 %);
Cyprus - 16/574 (2,79 %);
Lezgins - 1/41 (2,44 %);
Tabasarans - 1/43 (2,33 %);
Greece - 8/347 (2,31 %);
Crete - 4/193 (2,07 %);
Turkey - 15/737 (2,04 %);
Romania - 10/527 (1,9 %);
Bashkirs - 10/586 (1,71 %);
Herzegovina - 2/141 (1,42 %);
Italy - 5/359 (1,39 %);
Bosnia - 1/78 (1,28 %);
Syria - 1/81 (1,23 %);
Switzerland - 2/175 (1,14 %);
Hungary - 4/370 (1,08 %);
Bulgaria - 10/931 (1,07 %);
Germany - 4/378 (1,06 %);
Sardinia - 10/1204 (0,83 %);
Slovenia - 4/501 (0,8 %);
Iran - 10/1303 (0,77 %);
Mongolia - 1/160 (0,63 %);
Palestinians - 1/170 (0,59 %);
Portugal - 1/190 (0,53 %);
Denmark - 1/215 (0,47 %);
Poland - 1/252 (0,4 %);
Ukraine - 2/596 (0,34 %);
Russians - 3/1093 (0,27 %);
Jordan - 1/392 (0,26 %);
Afghanistan - 1/507 (0,2 %);
France - 1/535 (0,19 %);
Croatia - 1/828 (0,12 %);
Spain - 1/1122 (0,09 %).

http://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.am/
https://r1b-pf7562.blogspot.com/
This branch is an excellent candidate to be a Hittite lineage because it splits before L23

Maciamo can You add this branch in Your R1b Eupedia page?

Any connection with R1b>PF7562 L23+and Macedonia/Albania/Armenia ---Posted 5 years+/- 07/03/2017--Maciamo

It looks like this branch represents a migration out of the Pontic Steppe just before the Yamna period, and would therefore correspond to the Sredny Stog culture or the Khvalynsk culture. Since it appears to be a migration toward the Balkans, I would go with the western Sredny Stog culture. The presence of PF7562 to Turkey and Armenia would be attributable to later migrations from the Balkans to Anatolia and Armenia, such as the Phrygians (alongside other haplogroups, including other branches of R1b that came to the Balkans during the Yamna period).

 

[Hawk]

My problem with all of this is that we have not, to my knowledge, found any E-V13 or J2b2, for that matter, on the steppe. I may be wrong, and if so someone can correct me, but I only saw the precursor to E-V13 among these Bulgarian samples, and we have that precursor already present in the Neolithic Balkans. It could also have been in the Carpathians and we just haven't found it.

J2b2, if I remember correctly, has been found "south" of the Caucasus, not on the steppe.

I asked up thread if the E-V13 or precursor bearing samples are the Mycenaean like samples, but I didn't get an answer. If so, I think the most likely explanation is that there indeed remained EBA and MBA people in the area. It's just that we wouldn't normally find their burials. I find it hard to believe this was some line which came in from further north. Rather, it might have been a local lineage absorbed by the steppe admixed people which then expanded.

They need additional Pannonian_Carpathian Neolithic, the Tell Cultures from Pannonia survived better the Yamnaya incursions, they might have been a small clan high on EEF themselves which expanded. Archaeological records of the site would have told us otherwise, it's impossible for these people to be EBA/MBA locals, unless as i said they were Pelasgians since Pelasgians lived just south of where these E-V13 samples are found. Who knows. But i am confident they were Carpathian Neolithic survivors and LBA newcomers, i was never of the opinion they came from steppe.

 

[Angela]

Any connection with R1b>PF7562 L23+and Macedonia/Albania/Armenia ---Posted 5 years+/- 07/03/2017--Maciamo

How much in Southern Italy, however.

 

[Jovialis]

That is my branch, I have seen other matches with Albanians. I think the Yamnaya arrived in southern Italy, and meet populations that were similar to Greece_N/Minoan.

It makes me wonder if the 32% Greece & Albanian I get is from people primarly decended from Yamnaya + Greece_N/Albanian_N people. While the rest of the 55% is South Italian Neolithic + Italic/Cetina-like people. The rest 13% is Aegean Islander-like.

 

[mount123]

My problem with all of this is that we have not, to my knowledge, found any E-V13 or J2b2, for that matter, on the steppe. I may be wrong, and if so someone can correct me, but I only saw the precursor to E-V13 among these Bulgarian samples, and we have that precursor already present in the Neolithic Balkans. It could also have been in the Carpathians and we just haven't found it.

J2b2, if I remember correctly, has been found "south" of the Caucasus, not on the steppe.

Well, J2b-L283 is irrelevant to the discussion about sampled Thracian sites such as Kapitan Andreevo. And as of right now the oldest J2b-L283 samples are from the Western Balkans, mainly EBA East Adriatic. These people have plenty of steppe auDNA closest modern distances are Northern Italians (specific regions). As a Neolithic lineage of that area that would have not been possible.

J2b-L283 has never been found in Anatolia. As for the Caucasus there are two samples of which one is from South West Russia and one from the Southern Caucasus but these are much younger samples than the 2000+ BCE East Adriatic EBA Cetina samples.

There are certain rumors about Copper Age J2b-L283 presence dated at roughly 6000+ ybp in the Western Steppe, one specific rumor which has constantly been picked up is about an area geographically tied to modern Moldova. But these can only be discussed once published. The many EBA/MBA/IA East Adriatic samples were known to get published for some time too, and here we are.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Haplogroup T was found in Archaic Kastrouli and Roman Marathon, both under T-Z19890, perhaps indicating these branches might be indigenous. The two branches T-S27463 and/or CTS3767 are found in modern Albania, Italy and Turkey but not yet in Greece (YFull).

 

[Oroku Saki]

One or more of the Bulgaria/Thracian samples were "Mycenaean like". Were they the ones who carried E-V13. Were they also the ones who were subjected to ritual sacrifice? Does that sound like they were part of the incoming Thracian speakers or more likely locals?

My problem with all of this is that we have not, to my knowledge, found any E-V13 or J2b2, for that matter, on the steppe. I may be wrong, and if so someone can correct me, but I only saw the precursor to E-V13 among these Bulgarian samples, and we have that precursor already present in the Neolithic Balkans. It could also have been in the Carpathians and we just haven't found it.


I asked up thread if the E-V13 or precursor bearing samples are the Mycenaean like samples,

The "Mycenaean like" E-V13 samples were the EIA invaders from the Danube and Northwards. Many years ago there was an E sample from Svilengrad with Southern profile, alongside Bulgarian LBA sample which was more Northern. back in the day authors speculated that two different groups lived in Thrace, and even segregated, with E sample representing local EEF's.

Now they tested again Svilengrad and another nearby site and again the result was the same. But these people were not locals, this culture was an "invader". There are many Neolithic Bulgarian and EBA samples, none are E. Neolithic E wasn't found in Bulgaria, but in W.Balkans, Pannonia, Carpathians, C.Europe, Spain.. LIA , other IA and LA samples from Bulgaria show this is how Thracians looked like. Also one R-Z93 was found alongside.

The upcoming Hungarian study contains two E-L539 samples from East and Northeastern Hungary. They are practically certain to be V13 (they used on diagram 10k-15k old SNP's except for the R1b). E samples from Carpathian basin are from EBA and LBA. They do carry substantial Steppe ancestry, much higher than Bulgarian E samples. EBA almost 40 % and LBA sample almost 50 %.

But as this study shows, NE Hungary was also populated by various Minoan like peoples, often carrying J2a. Also the majority of invading Tumulus culture R1b's were very Southern shifted. This must have influenced the formation of Thracian autosomal profile as it was.

Bottom line There is no E on the Balkans in BA, there is Steppe heavy E in Carpathians in BA. The culture where Bulgarian samples are from is a direct descendant of the culture where Steppe heavy LBA E sample is from.

So there is nothing to debate, unless those E-L539 are somehow E-V12 or E-V22 which they won't be. Originally E-V13 was more Steppe derived in auDNA, prior to their invasion of the Balkans between LBA and EIA their autosomal profile was significantly altered by Carpathian locals. This Southern profile invaded, caused Southern autosomal shift and brought the Thracian language to Bulgaria in EIA.

These results also point towards E being IE-zed in EBA, as there seems to be auDNA continuity from EBA to LBA. And their root is not the Steppe, but might be an area very near to the Steppe. Possibly some R1a will also be found alongside EBA E sample.

 

[Silesian]

In light of all the new samples, I'm sure interested how linguists will interpret Armenian, so many theories.

Armenian is an independent branch of the Indo-European languages.^[31] It is of interest to linguists for its distinctive phonological changes within that family. Armenian exhibits more satemization than centumization, although it is not classified as belonging to either of these subgroups. Some linguists tentatively conclude that Armenian, Greek (and Phrygian) and Indo-Iranian were dialectally close to each other;^{[32][33][34][35][36][37]} within this hypothetical dialect group, Proto-Armenian was situated between Proto-Greek (centum subgroup) and Proto-Indo-Iranian (satem subgroup).^[38] Ronald I. Kim has noted unique morphological developments connecting Armenian to Balto-Slavic languages.^[39]

There are words used in Armenian that are generally believed to have been borrowed from Anatolian languages, particularly from Luwian, although some researchers have identified possible Hittite loanwords as well.^[51] One notable loanword from Anatolian is Armenian xalam, "skull", cognate to Hittite ḫalanta, "head".^[52]

In 1985, the Soviet linguist Igor M. Diakonoff noted the presence in Classical Armenian of what he calls a "Caucasian substratum" identified by earlier scholars, consisting of loans from theKartvelian and Northeast Caucasian languages.^[53] Noting that Hurro-Urartian-speakingpeoples inhabited the Armenian homeland in the second millennium BC, Diakonoff identifies in Armenian a Hurro-Urartian substratum of social, cultural, and animal and plant terms such as ałaxin "slave girl" ( ← Hurr. al(l)a(e)ḫḫenne), cov "sea" ( ← Urart. ṣûǝ "(inland) sea"), ułt "camel" ( ← Hurr. uḷtu), and xnjor "apple (tree)" ( ← Hurr. ḫinzuri). Some of the terms he gives admittedly have an Akkadian or Sumerian provenance, but he suggests they were borrowed through Hurrian or Urartian. Given that these borrowings do not undergo sound changes characteristic of the development of Armenian from Proto-Indo-European, he dates their borrowing to a time before the written record but after the Proto-Armenian language stage.

 

[Milan.M]

The Thracian E-V13 from Bulgaria should be tested for more deep clades to check their descendants today.Cause it might appear that E-V13 brought more steppe in the Balkans in later migrations stages maybe.Someone can correct me if I am wrong but so far it was found among Scythian sample from Moldova and "Goths" if I am not mistaken? Present day according to some studies Carpathian Rusyns carry up to 30% E-V13 who are Slavic.All this to me suggest that this haplogroup was present further north thus can be much more steppe admixed in the north,also one should compare the varieties of E-V13 among Bulgarians,Serbs,Greeks and Albanians for connection among them and then with further north samples such as Carpathian Rusyns,Moldovans,Ukrainians etc to see if their is some connections and from when.

 

[voloh]

Carpathian Rusyns carry up to 30% E-V13

could you please find this study? I want to know if it's real.

 

[Milan.M]

could you please find this study? I want to know if it's real.

This was done according to sampling and have read about it long ago might have been bias if the people were from same region or related but Pannonian Rusyns carry 12,5 % E-V13 from 200 samples and interestingly people from Zakarpathia or Bukovina carry 30% I2a which will make them more similar to South Slavs in Y-DNA.

 

[Misnomer00]

Target: Kurdish_Average
Distance: 0.9144% / 0.00914426
97.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
2.6 Levant_Baqah_BA

Kurds are just hasanlu_IA descendents. The paper wrongly claims Hasanlu was not Iranian speaking. Hasanlu definitely was Iranian, as there is almost 0 additional steppe ancestry in Kurds.

 

[td120]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ny_na_geneticeskom_fone_okruzausih_territorij

From Molgen, stats from FTDNA Carpatho-Rusyn Heritage DNA Project
"E1b1b [E-M215] - All Subclades (M35, M78, V13, V36, L17, L117, L142, L241) – 57 (16%)"
The overwhelmig majority of these 16% belong to various subclades of E-v13..."

https://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,508.330.html

Result from the FT Project are visible to members only.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/carpatho-rusyn/about/project-statistics

 

[Milan.M]

E-V13 was also found in Hungarian conquerors along I2a and in some early West Slavic samples?

 

[Ghani]

Target: Kurdish_Average
Distance: 0.9144% / 0.00914426
97.4 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
2.6 Levant_Baqah_BA
Kurds are just hasanlu_IA descendents. The paper wrongly claims Hasanlu was not Iranian speaking. Hasanlu definitely was Iranian, as there is almost 0 additional steppe ancestry in Kurds.

A newbie with 2 posts challenging a Harvard paper. Either you’re a troll or someone who truly doesn’t get why you can’t use G25 to discredit a solid paper based on advanced scientific methodology. Based on qpAdm Kurds are no more than 65-70% Hasanlu-IA the remainder be late Iron Age and Medieval populations that entered Kurdistan from the north and east.

There’s practically no population in a mixing bowl such as northern W. Asia or Central Asia that’s 97% of a 2700 year old early Iron Age except for in your lala land or G25 of course. Isolated islanders such as Onge are one of the few exceptions.

Learn real scientific methods if you want to criticize a Harvard paper

 

[Moja]

A newbie with 2 posts challenging a Harvard paper. Either you’re a troll or someone who truly doesn’t get why you can’t use G25 to discredit a solid paper based on advanced scientific methodology. Based on qpAdm Kurds are no more than 65-70% Hasanlu-IA the remainder be late Iron Age and Medieval populations that entered Kurdistan from the north and east.

There’s practically no population in a mixing bowl such as northern W. Asia or Central Asia that’s 97% of a 2700 year old early Iron Age except for in your lala land or G25 of course. Isolated islanders such as Onge are one of the few exceptions.

Learn real scientific methods if you want to criticize a Harvard paper

This Harward paper says that Iran is the homeland of Indo-Europeans and Kurds are an Indo-European people who have always lived in their own land.

 

[Ghani]

This Harward paper says that Iran is the homeland of Indo-Europeans and Kurds are an Indo-European people who have always lived in their own land.

Big unreasonable claims require big proof and not just a couple of words or G25

 

[Angela]

The "Mycenaean like" E-V13 samples were the EIA invaders from the Danube and Northwards. Many years ago there was an E sample from Svilengrad with Southern profile, alongside Bulgarian LBA sample which was more Northern. back in the day authors speculated that two different groups lived in Thrace, and even segregated, with E sample representing local EEF's.

Now they tested again Svilengrad and another nearby site and again the result was the same. But these people were not locals, this culture was an "invader". There are many Neolithic Bulgarian and EBA samples, none are E. Neolithic E wasn't found in Bulgaria, but in W.Balkans, Pannonia, Carpathians, C.Europe, Spain.. LIA , other IA and LA samples from Bulgaria show this is how Thracians looked like. Also one R-Z93 was found alongside.

The upcoming Hungarian study contains two E-L539 samples from East and Northeastern Hungary. They are practically certain to be V13 (they used on diagram 10k-15k old SNP's except for the R1b). E samples from Carpathian basin are from EBA and LBA. They do carry substantial Steppe ancestry, much higher than Bulgarian E samples. EBA almost 40 % and LBA sample almost 50 %.

But as this study shows, NE Hungary was also populated by various Minoan like peoples, often carrying J2a. Also the majority of invading Tumulus culture R1b's were very Southern shifted. This must have influenced the formation of Thracian autosomal profile as it was.

Bottom line There is no E on the Balkans in BA, there is Steppe heavy E in Carpathians in BA. The culture where Bulgarian samples are from is a direct descendant of the culture where Steppe heavy LBA E sample is from.

So there is nothing to debate, unless those E-L539 are somehow E-V12 or E-V22 which they won't be. Originally E-V13 was more Steppe derived in auDNA, prior to their invasion of the Balkans between LBA and EIA their autosomal profile was significantly altered by Carpathian locals. This Southern profile invaded, caused Southern autosomal shift and brought the Thracian language to Bulgaria in EIA.

These results also point towards E being IE-zed in EBA, as there seems to be auDNA continuity from EBA to LBA. And their root is not the Steppe, but might be an area very near to the Steppe. Possibly some R1a will also be found alongside EBA E sample.

Love how some of our new members think they're such experts that they can condescend to long time members here and even moderators. I'll debate what I want to debate.

If you're trying to imply that E-V13 was a steppe lineage, I think that's highly improbable.

From everything we've seen, E came into Europe from Anatolia.

Now, perhaps it went to LBK and we just haven't found it, or perhaps it was indeed in the eastern Balkans and we just haven't found it. It was not, however, a "STEPPE" lineage. What may have happened is that it was absorbed by steppe people as they admixed with local European farmers.

I'd also point out that the Bulgarian E-V13 is "MYCENAEAN LIKE. Mycenaeans in the new study carry up to 22% CHG. Neolithic farmers from the Danube wouldn't have carried anything like that. "Southern" profile doesn't mean "Mycenaean", and we know that J2a has already been found in the European Neolithic. It didn't need to wait for the Bronze Age.

Conclusions in population genetics shouldn't be drawn from speculations largely based on what we WANT to believe; they should be based on statistical analysis of ancient samples, and I don't mean G25. All I see in your post is speculation after speculation.

Furthermore, while the culture where this E-V13 sacrificial sample was found may have moved in from further north, there is no way in hell you can know whether this person was from the invading group or was a local. You just "want" to believe it.