The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Milan.M said:
E-V13 was also found in Hungarian conquerors along I2a and in some early West Slavic samples?
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There's E-V13 in Bavaria and I'm sure there was some in Hungary. For crying out loud, Hitler probably carried it.

So, it got absorbed by the "conquerors". Big deal. It doesn't make it a steppe lineage.

One of my best matches is supposedly a "Scythian" conqueror. Thing is, the reason I'm so close to him is because he's very "Tuscan" like.

My husband is very close to a "Goth" sample from around the Black Sea. Surprise, surprise, he's very Mycenaean/Aegea Sea like.

If people are going to figure out the population history of their areas, they're going to have to be a lot more sophisticated in their analyses than this.
 
Angela said:
Love how some of our new members think they're such experts that they can condescend to long time members here and even moderators. I'll debate what I want to debate.

If you're trying to imply that E-V13 was a steppe lineage, I think that's highly improbable.

From everything we've seen, E came into Europe from Anatolia.

Now, perhaps it went to LBK and we just haven't found it, or perhaps it was indeed in the eastern Balkans and we just haven't found it. It was not, however, a "STEPPE" lineage. What may have happened is that it was absorbed by steppe people as they admixed with local European farmers.

I'd also point out that the Bulgarian E-V13 is "MYCENAEAN LIKE. Mycenaeans in the new study carry up to 22% CHG. Neolithic farmers from the Danube wouldn't have carried anything like that. "Southern" profile doesn't mean "Mycenaean", and we know that J2a has already been found in the European Neolithic. It didn't need to wait for the Bronze Age.

Conclusions in population genetics shouldn't be drawn from speculations largely based on what we WANT to believe; they should be based on statistical analysis of ancient samples, and I don't mean G25. All I see in your post is speculation after speculation.

Furthermore, while the culture where this E-V13 sacrificial sample was found may have moved in from further north, there is no way in hell you can know whether this person was from the invading group or was a local. You just "want" to believe it.
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You are mixing timelines completely. E-L618 didn't even come from Anatolia, it likely came directly from Northern Levant with the maritime farmers which stopped at South Albania/Northern Epirus initially within the context of Cardium Pottery Culture, the only Neolithic Culture which supposedly had Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like influences.

Now, regarding the Iron Age site, that site is classified as Early Hallstattian/Eastern Hallstattian part of Stamped Pottery Cultures derived from Dubovac Zuto Brdo (these people technically up to Middle Bronze Age were still using the characteristic Danubian Neolithic symbols of water birds on chariot that we see among Vinca/Starcevo and Danubian Neolithic cultures) on the basis of Vatin from the Southern Pannonia, up north they were related to Gava/Ottomany. How much patrilinear-wise they were related that's something which we don't know. This is the so called Balkan-Carpathian/Balkan-Danubian cultural complex in Balkan archaeology(and the only reason why we still don't have results from them is that they unfortunately heavily used cremation) and nobody can assume in modern context that people living in South Pannonia or Transylvania should be more EHG/Baltic/Yamnaya. It is perfectly noted in local archaeologists that during Bronze Age within a location various different Bronze Age Cultures lived next to each other. We don't fully know the picture.

A characteristic of these complexes is also that they heavily used cremation burials in urns or scattered ashes.

The Stamped Pottery group of these people Psenicevo-Babadag during EIA were the only ones from these related groups starting using inhumation, and these ritual pits is one of the core material features which defined them. Otherwise archaeologists will note it. Now, creating such simplistic models as Mycenean-like doesn't work, try to add some more Neolithic-like/Chalcolithic-like groups in the model and you see how they plot, Aegean-like takes a portion of it, East-Balkan-like a portion and Pannonian-Neolithic-like a portion.

One need to analyze samples within multi-faceted contexts, archeological, autosomal , patrilinear and to deduce an outcome.
 
Angela said:
There's E-V13 in Bavaria and I'm sure there was some in Hungary. For crying out loud, Hitler probably carried it.

So, it got absorbed by the "conquerors". Big deal. It doesn't make it a steppe lineage.

One of my best matches is supposedly a "Scythian" conqueror. Thing is, the reason I'm so close to him is because he's very "Tuscan" like.

My husband is very close to a "Goth" sample from around the Black Sea. Surprise, surprise, he's very Mycenaean/Aegea Sea like.

If people are going to figure out the population history of their areas, they're going to have to be a lot more sophisticated in their analyses than this.
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I am not fan of the steppe.I was saying that probably later groups brought more E-V13 in the Balkans and coming from more northern areas were more steppe admixed.So they brought more steppe in Balkans.For me is interesting cause we found it among Slavs,absorbed for sure.Was interested for deep clades to distinguish the migration.
 
Ghani said:
Big unreasonable claims require big proof and not just a couple of words or G25
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I don't know what you mean by big unreasonable claims, those who live in the south of lake Urmia, like Kurds, can be certainly hasanlu_IA descendents.
 
kmak said:
Which is Y-DNA of Philip II of Macedon?
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afaik, he was cremated. Unless we can deduce by some ancient sample paternally related to him.
 
I read some years ago from Anthrogenica that E-V13 in Southern Italy does not match that of Greece. And besides that in Calabria and Sicily the line is around 6-8% and and in Sicily in particular, one big clade is related to Northern Italy. The fact that this Y-DNA was not found in Ancient Greek samples can largely explain why this line is not dominant in Crete or Coastal Southern Italian regions.
 
Milan.M said:
I am not fan of the steppe.I was saying that probably later groups brought more E-V13 in the Balkans and coming from more northern areas were more steppe admixed.So they brought more steppe in Balkans.For me is interesting cause we found it among Slavs,absorbed for sure.Was interested for deep clades to distinguish the migration.
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Yes, Milan, but the E-V13 in Bulgarian Bronze is not Slav like or even Neolithic farmer like. He's Mycenaean like.
 
We know ancient Galatians lived in Gordion in the 3rd century BC, is the sample ID I4030_all Galatian?

galat_734p.jpg
 
Oroku Saki said:
The "Mycenaean like" E-V13 samples were the EIA invaders from the Danube and Northwards. Many years ago there was an E sample from Svilengrad with Southern profile, alongside Bulgarian LBA sample which was more Northern. back in the day authors speculated that two different groups lived in Thrace, and even segregated, with E sample representing local EEF's.

Now they tested again Svilengrad and another nearby site and again the result was the same. But these people were not locals, this culture was an "invader". There are many Neolithic Bulgarian and EBA samples, none are E. Neolithic E wasn't found in Bulgaria, but in W.Balkans, Pannonia, Carpathians, C.Europe, Spain.. LIA , other IA and LA samples from Bulgaria show this is how Thracians looked like. Also one R-Z93 was found alongside.

The upcoming Hungarian study contains two E-L539 samples from East and Northeastern Hungary. They are practically certain to be V13 (they used on diagram 10k-15k old SNP's except for the R1b). E samples from Carpathian basin are from EBA and LBA. They do carry substantial Steppe ancestry, much higher than Bulgarian E samples. EBA almost 40 % and LBA sample almost 50 %.

But as this study shows, NE Hungary was also populated by various Minoan like peoples, often carrying J2a. Also the majority of invading Tumulus culture R1b's were very Southern shifted. This must have influenced the formation of Thracian autosomal profile as it was.

Bottom line There is no E on the Balkans in BA, there is Steppe heavy E in Carpathians in BA. The culture where Bulgarian samples are from is a direct descendant of the culture where Steppe heavy LBA E sample is from.

So there is nothing to debate, unless those E-L539 are somehow E-V12 or E-V22 which they won't be. Originally E-V13 was more Steppe derived in auDNA, prior to their invasion of the Balkans between LBA and EIA their autosomal profile was significantly altered by Carpathian locals. This Southern profile invaded, caused Southern autosomal shift and brought the Thracian language to Bulgaria in EIA.

These results also point towards E being IE-zed in EBA, as there seems to be auDNA continuity from EBA to LBA. And their root is not the Steppe, but might be an area very near to the Steppe. Possibly some R1a will also be found alongside EBA E sample.
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There are some upcoming J2a samples from ancient NE Hungary?
 
Vallicanus said:
The oldest recorded R1b in Europe is still from Villabruna in the Italian Alps from 14,000 years ago.

In any case Yamna was R1b and Corded Ware was MAINLY R1a.
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Older R1b is from Siberia and associated with ANE ancestry. A culture being Majority R1a does not mean always R1a. I used to defend Carlos Quiles' hypothesis that R1B and R1A were separate, but new studies came in and he himself admitted to being wrong. I was wrong too. Yes, there was R1a and R1b in Coded Were. Deny this is to be out of date or have emotional problems dealing with facts. I was wrong when I advocated a radical separation between R1b and R1a. They were together in both Corded Were and some Beaker cultures that are now considered to be derived from Corded Were culture.
 
Niceguy12 said:
Older R1b is from Siberia and associated with ANE ancestry. A culture being Majority R1a does not mean always R1a. I used to defend Carlos Quiles' hypothesis that R1B and R1A were separate, but new studies came in and he himself admitted to being wrong. I was wrong too. Yes, there was R1a and R1b in Coded Were. Deny this is to be out of date or have emotional problems dealing with facts. I was wrong when I advocated a radical separation between R1b and R1a. They were together in both Corded Were and some Beaker cultures that are now considered to be derived from Corded Were culture.
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No, older R1b was not from Siberia.

Corded Ware was mainly R1a with some R1b interlopers. So, I don't deny R1a and R1b in Corded Ware together because R1b was widespread and originally linked to WHG as at Villabruna and the Iron Gates.
 
Hawk said:
You are mixing timelines completely. E-L618 didn't even come from Anatolia, it likely came directly from Northern Levant with the maritime farmers which stopped at South Albania/Northern Epirus initially within the context of Cardium Pottery Culture, the only Neolithic Culture which supposedly had Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like influences.

Now, regarding the Iron Age site, that site is classified as Early Hallstattian/Eastern Hallstattian part of Stamped Pottery Cultures derived from Dubovac Zuto Brdo (these people technically up to Middle Bronze Age were still using the characteristic Danubian Neolithic symbols of water birds on chariot that we see among Vinca/Starcevo and Danubian Neolithic cultures) on the basis of Vatin from the Southern Pannonia, up north they were related to Gava/Ottomany. How much patrilinear-wise they were related that's something which we don't know. This is the so called Balkan-Carpathian/Balkan-Danubian cultural complex in Balkan archaeology(and the only reason why we still don't have results from them is that they unfortunately heavily used cremation) and nobody can assume in modern context that people living in South Pannonia or Transylvania should be more EHG/Baltic/Yamnaya. It is perfectly noted in local archaeologists that during Bronze Age within a location various different Bronze Age Cultures lived next to each other. We don't fully know the picture.

A characteristic of these complexes is also that they heavily used cremation burials in urns or scattered ashes.

The Stamped Pottery group of these people Psenicevo-Babadag during EIA were the only ones from these related groups starting using inhumation, and these ritual pits is one of the core material features which defined them. Otherwise archaeologists will note it. Now, creating such simplistic models as Mycenean-like doesn't work, try to add some more Neolithic-like/Chalcolithic-like groups in the model and you see how they plot, Aegean-like takes a portion of it, East-Balkan-like a portion and Pannonian-Neolithic-like a portion.

One need to analyze samples within multi-faceted contexts, archeological, autosomal , patrilinear and to deduce an outcome.
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I don't know where you picked up some of this information, but it's completely incorrect.

There is no way you can possibly know from where the precursor of E-V13 came. It's a total guess. Indeed, if you think it had its center in the LBK, then it came from Northwest Anatolia, because that was the route taken into LBK. Yes, if you think it first appeared on the Eastern Adriatic then it might have come into Europe with Cardium. However, where you get that the farmers who spread Cardium were very different from the ones who took the route up into more Central Europe please provide me with proof, i.e. a comparison of Neolithic samples from each area, and I don't want to hear that G25 says so.

I don't know why you keep posting about the culture in which this Mycenaean like E-V13 sample was found. It's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. Fine, that was the culture in that place at that time. Fine again that they moved into the Bulgaria from further north.

What I'm saying is that Mycenaean people didn't live further north. Mycenaean like people carried 22% and more CHG. European Neolithic people did not. Plus, by the time the steppe people arrived they already had 25% WHG, so they were only about 75% Anatolian Neolithic. A Mycenaean like person could not have arrived from further north.

If there's Mycenaean like people in the area from which these newcomers came, from at or before the arrival of these people in Bulgaria, fine. Otherwise, that ancestry existed in Bulgaria Bronze Age, carrying E-V13.
 
Angela said:
I don't know where you picked up some of this information, but it's completely incorrect.

There is no way you can possibly know from where the precursor of E-V13 came. It's a total guess. Indeed, if you think it had its center in the LBK, then it came from Northwest Anatolia, because that was the route taken into LBK. Yes, if you think it first appeared on the Eastern Adriatic then it might have come into Europe with Cardium. However, where you get that the farmers who spread Cardium were very different from the ones who took the route up into more Central Europe please provide me with proof, i.e. a comparison of Neolithic samples from each area, and I don't want to hear that G25 says so.

I don't know why you keep posting about the culture in which this Mycenaean like E-V13 sample was found. It's irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. Fine, that was the culture in that place at that time. Fine again that they moved into the Bulgaria from further north.

What I'm saying is that Mycenaean people didn't live further north. Mycenaean like people carried 22% and more CHG. European Neolithic people did not. Plus, by the time the steppe people arrived they already had 25% WHG, so they were only about 75% Anatolian Neolithic. A Mycenaean like person could not have arrived from further north.

If there's Mycenaean like people in the area from which these newcomers came, from at or before the arrival of these people in Bulgaria, fine. Otherwise, that ancestry existed in Bulgaria Bronze Age, carrying E-V13.
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[COLOR=var(--nova-color-grey-800)]The contexts and attributes indicating village life vary in time and space as this new Neolithic “way of living” spread to the Mediterranean coast, to Europe and to Asia. Specifi cally, one of the basic properties of the Mediterranean Neolithic is a kind of pottery known for its specialized decoration called “Impresso”. Although this type of pottery is prevalent in Western Mediterranean regions, it is rare elsewhere except for some parts of the East Mediterranean coast and certain parts of Anatolia. The geographical expansion of “Impresso” pottery has been used for a long time as a tool for discussions on the origin and the spread of the Mediterranean Neolithic. Discovering a type of pottery that is technically, aesthetically similar to “Impresso” pottery will help to answer some of the issues mentioned previously. This poster discusses the properties of this ware, both generally around the Mediterranean and specifi cally within the site of Mezraa-Teleilat, in South-East Anatolia. As mentioned previously, “Impresso” pottery can be simply defi ned as pottery with a special kind of decoration made by pressing an object, such as bamboo, a comb, a nail, a shell onto the wet surface of a vessel.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...D'_WARE_AND_TRANSFERRING_NEOLITHIC_LIFE_STYLE
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Mezraa-Teleilat is a PPNB culture, influenced by Natufians, it's on the border of Levantine Farmers and Anatolian Farmers. We also have couple of yet bad coverage E-M78 samples from Michelsberger Culture, and i have read this culture had influence from Cardium Pottery Culture from Spain. So, some Cardial Farmers moved inland.

As for the Mycenean-like autosomal, i don't see strong points, because they are not fully Mycenean-like to begin with. We have plenty of Chalcolithic Bulgarian samples as well as EBA, and Chalcolithic ones are G2a, and EBA ones are R1b-Z2103, I2A, R1a-Z93, E-V13 appears in Early Iron Age within the context of these cultural groups who came from Northern Balkans. So, i will associate it with them and not with Myceneans, no matter the autosomal.

This is what archaeologists who know a big deal of Balkan archaeology have the saying:
By the end of the Late Bronze Age, the people of the Gáva culture, who buried cremated remains in urns, and related groups had expanded their domain. Their settlements and burial places are found not only in Transylvania, but also in the Banat, in areas east of the Tisza, and, east of the Carpathians, in Galicia and Bessarabia (Holihrad and Kisinyov cultures). Some of their groups travelled across the wooded steppes as far as the Dnieper River. Judging from the material evidence, peoples who lived at this time south of {1-36.} the Carpathians, in Wallachia and northern Bulgaria, spoke a language related to that of the Gáva culture (Babadag and Pšeničevo cultures). This region is roughly contiguous with the subsequent settlement areas of the Dacians, Gaetians, and Mysians

https://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/9.html
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Kapitan Andreevo is a region of Svilengrad, and this falls within Psenicevo Culture. This is a koine which connects North to South. They are not Mycenean-like. Mycenean-like is a quarter of autosomal which they share with Myceneans and they could have acquired it moving down South. Though, they must have been still rich with EEF, but not Aegean-like.

It's straight simple, one cannot appear in number in an archaeological complex if it's not related to it. Impossible. Similar percentages of autosomal which can make ghost-similarities (especially from calculators like Vahaduo) cannot be the only judgementeal tool, the archaeological, uniparental context should be taken on consideration.
 
Hawk said:
afaik, he was cremated. Unless we can deduce by some ancient sample paternally related to him.
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Not really.

Thanks to a lame leg, King Philip II’s body identified in ancient tomb

.......Based on bone and tooth analysis, the age of the Tomb I man at death appeared to be about 45, which would match with Philip II’s estimated age at death of 46 or 47.
Philip II’s wife Cleopatra (a.k.a. Cleopatra Eurydice) was thought to be in her late teens when she was killed, and the analysis of the young woman’s skeleton in Tomb I seems to match that description, with an age estimate of 18 years. The child’s age at death was estimated at 41 to 44 “intrauterine” weeks, which means it was probably a newborn.

“This evidence is against previous speculation that Cleopatra was executed a few months after Philip’s assassination,” the authors wrote. Mother and child were probably killed very shortly after the king’s untimely death, they wrote. (Olympias, the fourth wife of Philip II and the mother of Alexander the Great, is said to have killed them to secure her own son’s position as new ruler.)........

Having examined the damage linked to the wound that left Philip II lame, the scientists appeared impressed by the extent of his recovery.
“The recovery of Philip II after this terrible wound in the knee joint is a remarkable event in an era without antibiotics,” the authors wrote. “It demonstrates remarkable skill by his doctors to avoid bleeding.”
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https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-philip-ii-tomb-macedon-20150721-story.html

The pic of Philip's leg bone.

la-sci-sn-philip-ii-tomb-macedon-20150721
 
Did you guys notice the huge amount of mtDNA haplogroup K1a with the new data? I see at least 108 individuals mostly from the new published data. This mit haplogroup is definitely connected to the Neolitic migration 12 k years ago. There are also 43 individuals with K1b mtDNA .
 
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