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Of course. They have also the tooth of Philip.
The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al
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Of course. They have also the tooth of Philip.
real expert
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It seems that Afro-centrist from ES are not happy with the Southern Arc study. However, I'd really like to know why the Dzuduana paper was not included and dropped too.
BrandonP
Member Member # 3735 Rate Member |  posted 30 August, 2022 08:28 AM      quote: I wonder how aware these geneticists are of the conversations about their work going on in the anthropology/pop. genetics community. Could Lazaridis know about people like us using his work on "Basal Eurasian" to argue for prehistoric Levantines and Anatolians having significant African admixture? Maybe he's secretly uncomfortable with the implications of the very ghost population he christened and wants to distance himself from the claims being made about it? He certainly doesn't seem that sympathetic to "Afrocentric" narratives about history and so on.Originally posted by Elmaestro: Does anyone else find it interesting this dropped before the Dzuduana paper and there was no talks about deep ancestry or even basal Eurasian? Why isn't anyone acknowledging the fact that we have resolution on the development of neolithic Anatolian peoples... the quintessential EEF populations? It's confirmed the have ancestry from the near east. And they have an Epipaleolithic sample from the area?? Why not test it for Basal ancestry? Why is dzuduana left out of the analysis? wth is going on? -------------------- Brought to you by Brandon S. Pilcher Author of Priestess of the Lost Colony, a tale of high adventure, alternate history, and magical realism. My art thread on ES Posts: 6099 | From: Fallbrook, CA | Registered: Mar 2004 | IP: Logged |  |
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The naming of the study "Southern Arc" is not woke enough for some scholars's taste. LOL.
Benjamin Arbuckle and Zoe Schwandt commentary plus the commentary of Kloekhorst, an expert on the oldest Indo-European language.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2022/08/2...gt-de-oorsprong-van-veel-wereldtalen-a4139898
Benjamin Arbuckle and Zoe Schwandt commentary plus the commentary of Kloekhorst, an expert on the oldest Indo-European language.
quote:
Although Lazaridis et al. address an extraordinarily wide range of topics and provide insights into the Eurasian past (1–3), several issues common to ancient DNA research are evident in the framing of the data, especially with regard to the stories that are chosen (or not) for explication. In ancient genome research, DNA sequences are often presented as revealing a “true” history of humanity in contrast to historical and archaeological records that are prone to untruthfulness and imprecision. Although base pairs do not lie or exaggerate (though they do decay), neither do they tell stories, and storytelling that is used to interpret ancient genome analyses inevitably projects specific worldviews
Although Lazaridis et al. address an extraordinarily wide range of topics and provide insights into the Eurasian past (1–3), several issues common to ancient DNA research are evident in the framing of the data, especially with regard to the stories that are chosen (or not) for explication. In ancient genome research, DNA sequences are often presented as revealing a “true” history of humanity in contrast to historical and archaeological records that are prone to untruthfulness and imprecision. Although base pairs do not lie or exaggerate (though they do decay), neither do they tell stories, and storytelling that is used to interpret ancient genome analyses inevitably projects specific worldviews
quote:
Many of the narratives explored in the studies of Lazaridis et al. reflect a Eurocentric worldview. For example, the naming of the Southern Arc conjures a map projection that centers on the western tip of Eurasia rather than the Anatolian peninsula—a more intuitive geographic center of the research area. Moreover, in terms of scale, narratives based on genomes often project a high-altitude view of history (6), mostly devoid of individuals despite being derived from its most personal components. Neolithic farmer or steppe Yamnaya genetic material moves abstractly on its way from central Anatolia to the Balkans or from the Don to the Danube and the Peloponnese.
Many of the narratives explored in the studies of Lazaridis et al. reflect a Eurocentric worldview. For example, the naming of the Southern Arc conjures a map projection that centers on the western tip of Eurasia rather than the Anatolian peninsula—a more intuitive geographic center of the research area. Moreover, in terms of scale, narratives based on genomes often project a high-altitude view of history (6), mostly devoid of individuals despite being derived from its most personal components. Neolithic farmer or steppe Yamnaya genetic material moves abstractly on its way from central Anatolia to the Balkans or from the Don to the Danube and the Peloponnese.
quote:
Lazaridis et al. also present a dataset that estimates the phenotype, in terms of hair, eye, and skin pigmentation, for humans in the Southern Arc and Europe over the past 15,000 years (1–3). They show that brown hair and eyes and “intermediate” skin pigmentation was the most common phenotype in the region through time and that, despite common stereotypes, Bronze Age steppe populations were not dominated by blonde and blue-eyed individuals. They also document an increase in “light” pigmentation over time in West Eurasia, although potential reasons for selection of these traits are not addressed.
https://www.science.org/doi/full/10...edium=email&utm_content=alert&utm_source=sfmcLazaridis et al. also present a dataset that estimates the phenotype, in terms of hair, eye, and skin pigmentation, for humans in the Southern Arc and Europe over the past 15,000 years (1–3). They show that brown hair and eyes and “intermediate” skin pigmentation was the most common phenotype in the region through time and that, despite common stereotypes, Bronze Age steppe populations were not dominated by blonde and blue-eyed individuals. They also document an increase in “light” pigmentation over time in West Eurasia, although potential reasons for selection of these traits are not addressed.
quote:
Alwin Kloekhorst, associate professor at the Center for Linguistics at Leiden University, is impressed by the amount of DNA material that has been studied. He is an expert on the oldest Indo-European language from which texts have come down to us, Hittite (an Anatolian language). “This is a huge leap from what was known.”
However, Kloekhorst has great difficulty with the main conclusion of the article, that the Anatolian Indo-European languages arose much earlier than thought and did not come with migrants from the Yamnaya culture. “Remarkably, there were no historical linguists among the more than a hundred authors of the article. That is a shame, because from our field there is something to say about this.”
He explains what the problem is. “If the Anatolian languages do indeed descend from an earlier migration from the Caucasus, that would mean that they split off from the rest as early as six thousand years before Christ and then had their own development. If you look at the pace at which languages are developing, that is just not possible, because the Anatolian languages would then have to differ much more from the other Indo-European languages.”
Kloekhorst thinks that the Anatolian languages descended from a group of herdsmen who lived as early as 4000 BC. departed from the steppe and reached Anatolia a thousand years later. But how can the absence of Eastern European hunter-gatherer DNA – the unique ingredient in the Yamnaya's gene pool – be explained? Kloekhorst: “Language can also be transmitted through elites. These have a major influence on the culture of a population, but are relatively small. As a result, their genetic signature disappears over time after mixing with the local population.”
Alwin Kloekhorst, associate professor at the Center for Linguistics at Leiden University, is impressed by the amount of DNA material that has been studied. He is an expert on the oldest Indo-European language from which texts have come down to us, Hittite (an Anatolian language). “This is a huge leap from what was known.”
However, Kloekhorst has great difficulty with the main conclusion of the article, that the Anatolian Indo-European languages arose much earlier than thought and did not come with migrants from the Yamnaya culture. “Remarkably, there were no historical linguists among the more than a hundred authors of the article. That is a shame, because from our field there is something to say about this.”
He explains what the problem is. “If the Anatolian languages do indeed descend from an earlier migration from the Caucasus, that would mean that they split off from the rest as early as six thousand years before Christ and then had their own development. If you look at the pace at which languages are developing, that is just not possible, because the Anatolian languages would then have to differ much more from the other Indo-European languages.”
Kloekhorst thinks that the Anatolian languages descended from a group of herdsmen who lived as early as 4000 BC. departed from the steppe and reached Anatolia a thousand years later. But how can the absence of Eastern European hunter-gatherer DNA – the unique ingredient in the Yamnaya's gene pool – be explained? Kloekhorst: “Language can also be transmitted through elites. These have a major influence on the culture of a population, but are relatively small. As a result, their genetic signature disappears over time after mixing with the local population.”
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2022/08/2...gt-de-oorsprong-van-veel-wereldtalen-a4139898
Angela
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The two who wrote this are beyond idiotic:
"Many of the narratives explored in the studies of Lazaridis et al. reflect a Eurocentric worldview. For example, the naming of the Southern Arc conjures a map projection that centers on the western tip of Eurasia rather than the Anatolian peninsula—a more intuitive geographic center of the research area."
It doesn't do any such thing. It's talking about the people from the SOUTHERN, versus the NORTHERN part of WESTERN EURASIA. WESTERN EURASIA includes Europe and the Near East. EASTERN EURASIA is China, Japan, etc. Christ, do they know how to use maps? Plus, you couldn't get a more Anatolian centric paper. Did they actually read it?
Also, what's their beef with the pigmentation data? They aren't dark enough for them?
"Many of the narratives explored in the studies of Lazaridis et al. reflect a Eurocentric worldview. For example, the naming of the Southern Arc conjures a map projection that centers on the western tip of Eurasia rather than the Anatolian peninsula—a more intuitive geographic center of the research area."
It doesn't do any such thing. It's talking about the people from the SOUTHERN, versus the NORTHERN part of WESTERN EURASIA. WESTERN EURASIA includes Europe and the Near East. EASTERN EURASIA is China, Japan, etc. Christ, do they know how to use maps? Plus, you couldn't get a more Anatolian centric paper. Did they actually read it?
Also, what's their beef with the pigmentation data? They aren't dark enough for them?
Palermo Trapani
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I agree they are idiots, but their posts and views are entirely consistent with neo-marxist woke ideology.
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now that I think about it, theThe Southern Arc is somehow prospective based. if it was a chinese prospective it would habe been:
the Western Arc: a bridge betwen Asia and Souther Europe. that sounds funny in my head, maybe the original title sound funny for somebody else.
i think they tried to connect to the Fertile Crescent, but maybe it was not the best attempt.
nevertheless, you should not judge a book by its cover! It is an amasing work, in my opinion, especially the dataset. the interpretations can change, and corrected if needed, but future theories and hypothesis would have to be tested on those samples. again, imo.
Dataset quality is not perfect at all. Not enough coverage. Half of the individuals should be ignored because of missingness.
Oroku Saki
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I agree. V13 wasn't found in the Steppe. And if it were it would have been more widespread among other IE groups.
it should be related with Cardials, so it came from SE Anatolia, hopping from island to island.
I said V13 became Steppe influenced in auDNA (autosomal DNA) and looking at the information from Carpathian basin study that seems to be correct for BA.
Bulgarian samples are "Mycenaean-like" but they do not carry such amount of CHG. They do carry some, however CHG ancestry could have reached Carpathains via the Anatolian descended Glina-Schneckenberg culture.
LIA V13 Moldavian and Pannonian samples (the Eastern outlier) show no extra CHG ancestry (other than CHG that is part fo the Steppe), so the Bulgarian samples might have acquired this in Bulgaria.
I do have some new information from the Hungarian study and it seems V13 will be found in a culture which was mostly autosomally EEF (maybe with some CHG), had heavy Neolithic elements. This culture also was cremating but they had too ritual pits, I wonder whether these pits could be related to Bulgarian pits.. V13 it seems was among minority that was IE-zed in EBA. This culture was overrun by a Kurgan derived MBA R1a dominated culture, its elements being assimilated. This might explain the Baltic leanings of the Thracian language.
So the V13 might derive from an EEF enclave in Northern Pannonia, this enclave might have yielded the original Etruscans as someone wrote here.
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May i know which one? I bet from south Vatin or Vatya or Hatvan/Nagyrev/Nyirseg or Cotofeni are my guesses, one of them.
Oroku Saki
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I am posting a new topic. It seems Hatvan is where the V13 started and it makes perfect sense.
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Awesome, so they came in conflict with Ottomani-Fuszesabony, they mingled with them, and that's the origin of Channeled-Ware!?
Is Nagyrev the ancestral culture of Hatvan or just contemporary?
Angela
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Let me know when someone ACTUALLY finds a sample in the Carpathian basin that has such high levels of CHG.
Also, show me the stats on the Bulgarian "Mycenaean" samples which prove they don't have a big chunk of CHG, and I don't mean by using G25.
Then, you will have a solid chain of evidence.
Otherwise you're stuck with saying some E-V13 carrying people from the Carpathian basin happened to mate with people in Bulgaria who "were" CHG and EEF heavy although you and others have argued that people with that autosomal profile were wiped out. So, which is it?
Oroku Saki
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Yes it looks awesome because it does make perfect sense for V13. The study has a sole Nyirseg sample (male or female), but 7 or 8 Hatvan samples, of which at least 2 are male samples. And E1b sample doesn't fit the Nyirseg sample.
Yes there was a big conflict with the Ottomany-Fuszesabony (even Wietenberg from Romania is related with these), and the Fuzesabony prevailed, but the archeologists say there was a long assimilation process of the Hatvan descendants.
Ofc the study has LBA E1b sample too, so E1b groups must have been heavily involved with an Urnfield culture, but just one of them likely as many samples are non-E1b.
Nagyrev began before Hatvan, Nagyrev also was heavily EEF derived. Nominally Vucedol was the parent of Hatvan (and Nyirseg too etc.) but Vucedol was very heterogenous. And Vucedol included the Steppe heavy core and various peripheries where they expanded. the core was Steppe also in Y-DNA, the old R-Z2103 sample, also the Pannonian study has a Zok Steppe heavy Q1b sample, but peripheries were largely derived of locals.
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They seem to form a bigger cloud around the initial Mycenaean samples we knew from 2017.
Angela
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They seem to form a bigger cloud around the initial Mycenaean samples we knew from 2017.
Do all the Palace of Nestor samples wind up so near modern Basilicata, Calabria etc. instead of near the older Mycenaean samples?
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