The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[Vallicanus]

So 99% of Indo-European speakers are from Northern Europe?!! I don't think that even Nordicists believe this thing! Just one percent of Indo-Europeans are not from this Aryan super-race in Europe?!

Northern Europe had nothing to do with IE linguistic origins.

That was the Steppes+South of the Caucasus at fairly even levels and all the extremist contortions and semantic trickery in the world cannot alter this fact.

 

[Vallicanus]

The Uber Polish CordedWare don't you know. Remember Arnold the Barbarian riding on his horse.

Sure, Bonehead in a Chariot.

 

[Pax Augusta]

So 99% of Indo-European speakers are from Northern Europe?!! I don't think that even Nordicists believe this thing! Just one percent of Indo-Europeans are not from this Aryan super-race in Europe?!

Don't shoot the messenger.

So basically the two big clades in Corded Ware (aka--horseless Ware)R1b+L51 R1a/Fatyanovo cannot be connected to Hittites, Tocharians, Greeks, Armenians, and Albanians . Does that sum it up?

Yes, it does in a nutshell. Then clearly people were already moving in bronze and you might find clades seemingly contradicting this.




 

[Anfänger]

With all the hype I was expecting huge numbers of warrior R1a or L51 l Corded Ware like samples to show up. Instead Z2103- R1b--L584 . I wonder if the Grugni et al 2012 --23% sampled Lurs are related to this branch as well as the ancient Medes?

No, I don’t think so. I am a Lur and I am not L584, actually anything downstream of my Z2103 is unknown according to yseq. These new samples with R1b from Hasanlu,Uratu and Armenia are probably all Proto-Armenians and/or Hurrians. Iranics (Medes and Persians) came in from Central Asia (Yaz-culture). I am sure that samples from Ecbatana, the Median capital will turn out to be Medes with majority R1a-Z93 and a minority of R1b-Z2103.

 

[Moja]

CHG ancestry is virtually indistinguishable from Iran_N. The profiles are extremely similar. This is what the paper says:

"These results tentatively suggest that Caucasus hunter-gatherer and Ganj Dare Neolithic are interchangeable for the purposes of quantifying the amount of inland admixture... ."

But it seems Neolitic samples from Iran and Armenia are distinguishable in this study, just Iranian ones are 100% CHG.

 

[1337_]

Your average Gheg Albanian definitely does not cluster like a Mycenean or a Southern Albania. Especially not if you include Montenegro Albanians and Kosovo Albanians yet you were claiming all samples in Albania will cluster like Greeks or Myceneans and anyone who is more north is because of Slavic shift, that was basically your argument but does not seem to be the case.

I'm just breaking your balls btw, does not matter what you said.

 

[Anfänger]

But it seems Neolitic samples from Iran and Armenia are distinguishable in this study, just Iranian ones are 100% CHG.

Neolithic Armenia has a huge amount of Anatolian_N. I hoped for older samples in this study with unadmixed CHG/Iran samples, but not this time.

 

[Moja]

Imho this paper is a ridiculous attempt to save the 'steppe hypothesis', not really oppose it.

Yamnaya itself may not have been IE in the first place.

Now we see another R1b-rich non-IE group who a) didn't care to impose their ancestral language (why?) or b) they were not speaking the language in the first place.

Exactly, none of ancient samples of known Indo-European people are R1b/R1a but it is believed that these haplogroups relate to Indo-Europeans!!! This study says not only ancient Anatlians, but also Persians, Greeks, Phrygians, Galatians, Romans and other Indo-European people who lived in Anatolia had no EHG ancestry too, R1b and R1a have never been found in ancient Anatolia.

 

[Vallicanus]

Don't shoot the messenger.

Yes, it does in a nutshell. Then clearly people were already moving in bronze and you might find clades seemingly contradicting this.




With all due respect to Lazaridis et alia, I'm R1b and Beaker-descended not an R1a Corded Ware bod.

 

[Silesian]

I was going to make a post about this but you beat me to it, the Urartians seem to be exclusively R-L584>R-FGC14590>R-19434>R-12332 (mah ancestors, *sniff* :sadcry.
Upstream of them @ R-FC14590 (and also one at R-Y19434) there are several IA Hajji-Firruz/IA Hasanlu samples (Medes?).

A couple of questions. Do you know of any R1b from Lurs related to Anfangers branch? Or are Lurs related to the R1b Potopovka and or R1b Sintashta or the Alan's modern day Ossetians--(R1b9219 Albanian like?)

 

[Pax Augusta]

With all due respect to Lazaridis et alia, I'm R1b and Beaker-descended not an R1a Corded Ware bod.

I understand exactly what you mean, and Lazaridis' statement is too peremptory, also because I don't think the picture of what happened after Yamnaya is entirely clear. Bell Beaker and Corded Ware are in any case connected. Bell Beaker spread to areas of Europe partly overlapping with Corded Ware and partly not covered by Corded Ware. In a sense Bell Beaker had the same function as Corded Ware but also covered other European areas. If I have understood something.

 

[Silesian]

With all due respect to Lazaridis et alia, I'm R1b and Beaker-descended not an R1a Corded Ware bod.

Is the chronology of R1b L51 in Corded Ware older or younger than L51 Afanasievo?

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Exactly, none of ancient samples of known Indo-European people are R1b/R1a but it is believed that these haplogroups relate to Indo-Europeans!!! This study says not only ancient Anatlians, but also Persians, Greeks, Phrygians, Galatians, Romans and other Indo-European people who lived in Anatolia had no EHG ancestry too, R1b and R1a have never been found in ancient Anatolia.

Greeks or some Greeks had a small EHG shift but on the Skourtanioti paper 'Minoans' and 'Mycenaeans' essentially form a cluster with Tepecik-Ciftlik..

Imho it is theoretically possible proto-Greeks or Greco-Phrygians even to have been Logkas like or to have been similar or broadly similar to southern Illyrians, that is the only 'northern' model that could make sense.

But until now no Z2103 in early Greeks. R1b appears during or after the BA collapse. No 'elite' Z2103 yet either.

Greeks and Greek-related populations (Phrygians, Pelagonians) seem J2a rich.

 

[Moja]

Iranics (Medes and Persians) came in from Central Asia (Yaz-culture). I am sure that samples from Ecbatana, the Median capital will turn out to be Medes with majority R1a-Z93 and a minority of R1b-Z2103.

Miracles hardly happen in real life, so you shouldn't wait for R1a-Z93 in ancient Iran, except a very rare outlier sample.

 

[Vallicanus]

Is the chronology of R1b L51 in Corded Ware older or younger than L51 Afanasievo?

Corded Ware was mostly R1a.

Any R1b males were exceptions... probably interlopers or exiles.

 

[Moja]

Greeks or some Greeks had a small EHG shift but on the Skourtanioti paper 'Minoans' and 'Mycenaeans' essentially form a cluster with Tepecik-Ciftlik..
Imho it is theoretically possible proto-Greeks or Greco-Phrygians even to have been Logkas like or to have been similar or broadly similar to southern Illyrians, that is the only 'northern' model that could make sense.
But until now no Z2103 in early Greeks. R1b appears during or after the BA collapse. No 'elite' Z2103 yet either.
Greeks and Greek-related populations (Phrygians, Pelagonians) seem J2a rich.

Yes, ancient Persians, Medes, Hittites, Luwians, Greeks, Romans,... were J2 rich.

Ancient Persians and Greeks knew about this common genetic origin, according to Herodotus, the Persian king Xerxes sent a herald to Argos, who on his arrival spoke as follows: "Men of Argos, King Xerxes speaks thus to you. We Persians deem that the Perses from whom we descend was the child of Perseus the son of Danae, and of Andromeda the daughter of Cepheus. Hereby it would seem that we come of your stock and lineage."

 

[Silesian]

Miracles hardly happen in real life, so you shouldn't wait for R1a-Z93 in ancient Iran, except a very rare outlier sample.

Do you think there will be a miracle and they will find one sample of R1a-Z93 in elite burials of Corded Ware, Bell Beakers, or Yamnaya ?

 

[Silesian]

Corded Ware was mostly R1a.

Any R1b males were exceptions... probably interlopers or exiles.

How come there are no CordedWare R1a samples in Bell Beakers, when we can find 2 Yamnaya Bell Beakers (R1b-Z2103) in Hungary, buried near R1b-L51.

 

[Moja]

Do you think there will be a miracle and they will find one sample of R1a-Z93 in elite burials of Corded Ware, Bell Beakers, or Yamnaya ?

Ancient samples of R1a-Z93 will be found in the region where they have been found so far.

 

[Silesian]

Ancient samples of R1a-Z93 will be found in the region where they have been found so far.

Where, and how old?