The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Jovialis said:
There is one Palace of Nestor sample from the EIA that plots right on top of South Italians:

nWAJEUp.png
Click to expand...

Thanks.

Some more eastern shifted too.
 
Jovialis said:
They seem to form a bigger cloud around the initial Mycenaean samples we knew from 2017.

OSNAZO9.png
Click to expand...

The overall average/median is still the same. It's just a part of genetic variation. Some more steppe admixed individuals nearly touch Southern Italian (similarly shown in the leaked PCA of Classical Greece) and some less the steppe are very close with Minoans while the average fits in the "Empuries" zone. I think one Dodecanese-like sample is an irrelevant outlier as leaked post Bronze Age samples of Euboea and Peloponnese seem similar to Mainstream Myceneans.
 
ihype02 said:
The overall average/median is still the same. It's just a part of genetic variation. Some more steppe admixed individuals nearly touch Southern Italian (similarly shown in the leaked PCA of Classical Greece) and some less the steppe are very close with Minoans while the average fits in the "Empuries" zone. I think one Dodecanese-like sample is an irrelevant outlier as leaked post Bronze Age samples of Euboea and Peloponnese seem similar to Mainstream Myceneans.
Click to expand...
I can’t make heads or tails of these PCA’s. These just tend to confuse me more.
 
Also some of those samples in Jovailis PCA look a little weird. Two of them are very close to Latins and Sardinians. This is not the case in G25:
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I13518:I13506_d
0.03835283Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.03982870BGR_IA
0.03999019DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.04091803ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.04298894GRC_Mycenaean
0.04321141HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04363609ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04829332ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial
0.04878270ITA_Ordona_MA
0.05068997GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.05276490ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.05309312ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.05366395ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.05394329HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.05487060ITA_Etruria_Imperial
0.05492048ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05547085ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.05592957ITA_Venosa_EMA
0.05596702ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.05606886ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.05635953ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.05654629ITA_Sardinia_MA
0.05655570ITA_Sardinia_Late_Antiquity
0.05657117IND_Roopkund_B
0.05720817BGR_Krepost_N
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
0.03552667Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04724620GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.04870779HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04982986GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
0.05006570GRC_Mycenaean
0.05211384ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05350601GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
0.05373504GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.05374274GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras
0.05463050ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.05497773BGR_IA
0.05575929BGR_C
0.05642416BGR_Krepost_N
0.05753496TUR_Kumtepe_N
0.05933682ITA_Sardinia_MA
0.05943649DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.05957624ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.06050211GRC_Peloponnese_N
0.06228918ITA_Sardinia_Roman_Imperial
0.06341387HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.06412113TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.06454853ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.06474045BGR_Late_C
0.06479163ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.06548456BGR_Varna_C
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
0.02698590GRC_Mycenaean
0.02879320Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.03417526GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.03869153ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.03910234BGR_IA
0.04026882BGR_Krepost_N
0.04157258HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.04382140ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.04516739DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.04617851HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04704876GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.04955752ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05002363TUR_Kumtepe_N
0.05059544ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.05164847ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.05164977ITA_Ordona_MA
0.05184992GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras
0.05213944HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.05267207Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
0.05274636ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial
0.05304570GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
0.05330955MDA_Trypillia_Late
0.05454570ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.05465871GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
0.05512142BGR_Varna_C



Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
0.03830601ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03995792ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
0.04065099ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.04274105Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04378347ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.04713826ITA_Ordona_MA
0.04715950Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
0.04759309IND_Roopkund_B
0.04824052ITA_Venosa_EMA
0.04870192ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial
0.04881866DEU_MA_Erfurt1
0.04904478ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04997906GRC_Mycenaean
0.05031045TUR_Barcin_C
0.05096364TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.05185408BGR_IA
0.05192687ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.05238639TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
0.05320092TUR_Ovaoren_EBA
0.05357473GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.05549824IND_Roopkund_B_o
0.05552686DEU_MA_Erfurt3
0.05634649ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.05649119ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.05722485ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
0.03708024Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04675458HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04719673GRC_Mycenaean
0.05029904GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras
0.05050116GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
0.05125197ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.05242608TUR_Kumtepe_N
0.05283026ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.05316183GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.05464222BGR_IA
0.05557640ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial
0.05686136ITA_Sardinia_MA
0.05686151ITA_Etruscan_Tarquinia_Afr
0.05793137ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.05879311BGR_C
0.05930437DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.05970971BGR_Middle_C
0.05982659ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
0.06003482TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.06130233GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.06388124BGR_Krepost_N
0.06396676ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.06439901ITA_Sardinia_Roman_Imperial
0.06504163GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
0.06526412ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
0.03505846BGR_IA
0.03829949HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.03862751ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04130545HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.04467022Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04584736GRC_Mycenaean
0.04709430HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04730979DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.05076244MDA_Trypillia_Late
0.05116645ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.05139548ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.05277479ITA_PoggioPelliccia_EMA
0.05285060ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.05407315GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.05435508ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.05492852TUR_IA_low_res
0.05493977HRV_Pop_CA
0.05538014BGR_EBA
0.05752928IND_Roopkund_B
0.05830756HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup
0.05865473ITA_Etruria_Imperial
0.05886872ITA_Ordona_MA
0.05904634ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.05929965ITA_Tarquinia_EMA
0.05939794ITA_Sicily_LBA
Distance to:GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
0.04143122Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.04562545HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.04891589DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.05275259GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.05409466BGR_IA
0.05426660GRC_Minoan_Kephala_Petras
0.05670665GRC_Mycenaean
0.05689592ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.05892617GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.05926946ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.06138494GRC_Manika_Helladic_EBA
0.06287005BGR_Krepost_N
0.06365562ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.06447801TUR_Kumtepe_N
0.06496343ITA_Chiusi_EMA
0.06502106HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.06713914BGR_Middle_C
0.06777106TUR_Buyukkaya_EC
0.06804533ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.06839659BGR_C
0.06900984GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
0.06905580BGR_Varna_C
0.06981433TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.06999622ITA_Marsiliana_Imperial
0.07021238MDA_Trypillia_Late

Distance to:GRC_Kastrouli_Anc:I17962
0.03801577GRC_Mycenaean
0.04066269ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04164572HUN_Avar_Early_Kövegy
0.04287489BGR_IA
0.04467482BGR_Krepost_N
0.04641793GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
0.04699430Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
0.05179039HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast
0.05240969ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.05382246ITA_Ordona_MA
0.05474232ITA_Tarquinia_Imperial
0.05555592GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
0.05587439MDA_Trypillia_Late
0.05654927DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o
0.05787995GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
0.05970637ITA_Sicily_MBA
0.06001085BGR_Varna_C
0.06008750ITA_Etruscan_Vetulonia_Afr
0.06008874ITA_Sicily_LBA
0.06016974HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.06030834ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.06037833TUR_Kumtepe_N
0.06100889ITA_Sardinia_Late_Antiquity
0.06193883ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.06197260ITA_Etruria_Imperial
 
Pax Augusta said:
Which is turning American academia into a joke.
Click to expand...

Much of American academia has been a joke for decades. It used to be that STEM, Finance and Business degrees were considered the only useful ones to go for. But even more recently, some woke "experts" are trying to "de-colonize" mathematics. Also, because of the Biden administration, they have now required colleges to have Equity officers, who look for racism, etc.

I went to college back in the days of George W. Bush, and even then I was probably assigned to read the communist manifesto at least three times while fulfilling general credits. I went for a co-major in history, and it was disgustingly woke even then.

Now that big companies have become woke to insulate themselves from persecution, it has infected everything in our society. My country cannot accept reality for what it is, so it prefers to live in a fantasy of vicious lies. At the end of the day, it has much to do with greed.

Funny thing is, I was more liberal before going to college. By the time I was finished, I was a lot more conservative.
 
real expert said:
It seems that Afro-centrist from ES are not happy with the Southern Arc study. However, I'd really like to know why the Dzuduana paper was not included and dropped too.


BrandonP
xDCj0Tms.jpg

Member
Member # 3735

Rate Member		 posted 30 August, 2022 08:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Elmaestro:
Does anyone else find it interesting this dropped before the Dzuduana paper and there was no talks about deep ancestry or even basal Eurasian?

Why isn't anyone acknowledging the fact that we have resolution on the development of neolithic Anatolian peoples... the quintessential EEF populations? It's confirmed the have ancestry from the near east. And they have an Epipaleolithic sample from the area?? Why not test it for Basal ancestry? Why is dzuduana left out of the analysis? wth is going on?
​
I wonder how aware these geneticists are of the conversations about their work going on in the anthropology/pop. genetics community. Could Lazaridis know about people like us using his work on "Basal Eurasian" to argue for prehistoric Levantines and Anatolians having significant African admixture? Maybe he's secretly uncomfortable with the implications of the very ghost population he christened and wants to distance himself from the claims being made about it? He certainly doesn't seem that sympathetic to "Afrocentric" narratives about history and so on.

--------------------
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Author of Priestess of the Lost Colony, a tale of high adventure, alternate history, and magical realism.

My art thread on ES
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Click to expand...

Afrocentrists are as stupid as white supremacists. Anyway, I also expected the papers to say something about the Dzudzuana cave. Because, it was considered by Lazaridis to be the core of West Eurasian ancestry and so I was a little disappointed that it wasn't mentioned in the papers. We hope that the subject will be addressed in the next researches.
 
Angela said:
The two who wrote this are beyond idiotic:
"Many of the narratives explored in the studies of Lazaridis et al. reflect a Eurocentric worldview. For example, the naming of the Southern Arc conjures a map projection that centers on the western tip of Eurasia rather than the Anatolian peninsula—a more intuitive geographic center of the research area."

It doesn't do any such thing. It's talking about the people from the SOUTHERN, versus the NORTHERN part of WESTERN EURASIA. WESTERN EURASIA includes Europe and the Near East. EASTERN EURASIA is China, Japan, etc. Christ, do they know how to use maps? Plus, you couldn't get a more Anatolian centric paper. Did they actually read it?

Also, what's their beef with the pigmentation data? They aren't dark enough for them?
Click to expand...

In the second paper, I was surprised to see 40% light hair and 20% blonde hair in the GRC_Minoan_Lasithi_BA samples. I thought they were darker.
 
Just_a_Common_Guy said:
In the second paper, I was surprised to see 40% light hair and 20% blonde hair in the GRC_Minoan_Lasithi_BA samples. I thought they were darker.
Click to expand...

A hallmark of these populations is how heterogeneous they are. In the case of mainland Greece I would suppose the topography had much to do with it. I'm not as familiar with Crete so I don't know if that could be a factor, but just emphasizing in group marriage can do the same thing. Though drift some recessive characteristics can become prominent. You just have to hope the alleles rising to prominence aren't disease or cognition related.

Hate to constantly bring up my father's family, but the people in that area were extensively studied for Cavalli-Sforza's groundbreaking book on inbreeding ad genetic drift.

Every single person in my father's home village had light eyes and hair, with red hair being very prominent. The lower the elevation of the village and thus the less isolated, the less often that was the case. It did my father's people no harm, considering how little sunlight they saw, rather the opposite; it was adaptive as well.

There's nothing magical about fair pigmentation, no sacred significance. It's just selection and sometimes inbreeding and drift.

Btw, there's that Chalcolithic Levantine population which also unexpectedly turned out to have fair coloring.
 
I created my own Global-25 dataset (PCA data). I tried to reproduce the data from Eurogenes blog for Phrygians.
Here are my results:

Target: TUR_C_Kalehöyük_MLBA:MA2200_final.SG
Distance: 2.5543% / 0.02554308
40.8TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
25.2MKD_Anc_outlier1
18.6ISR_MLBA
8.6RUS_Kura_Araxes_outlier
4.2RUS_Late_Majkop_1d.rel.I11131.I11133_dup.S11132.E1.L1
1.2BGR_Veliko_Tarnovo_Mdv
0.8IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6Han.DG

Target: TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4030_all
Distance: 1.4149% / 0.01414941
40.8TUR_Marmara_Barcin_ChL
25.6RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_brother.I1053
22.6ISR_ChL
9.2TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
0.8IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
0.4Han.DG

Target: TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_all
Distance: 1.5471% / 0.01547105
36.2MKD_Anc_outlier1
22.0RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_brother.I1053
21.0TUR_Marmara_Barcin_ChL
11.2BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
7.4TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
1.2RUS_Kura_Araxes_outlier
1.0ISR_ChL

Target: TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917_all
Distance: 1.4708% / 0.01470780
43.6MKD_Anc_outlier1
36.4TUR_Marmara_Barcin_ChL
12.8BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
4.8ISR_ChL
1.8TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
0.6RUS_Kura_Araxes_outlier

Target: TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3916
Distance: 1.1411% / 0.01141150
17.0MKD_Anc
15.8MKD_Anc_outlier1
15.0TUR_Marmara_Barcin_ChL
14.4ISR_ChL
11.0IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
9.4RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_brother.I1053
8.8BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
8.6TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N

Target: TUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN.SG:Bon002.SG
Distance: 1.5891% / 0.01589135
74.2TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
21.4TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
1.6BGR_Merichleri_MLBA
1.6RUS_Kura_Araxes_outlier
1.2Han.DG

Target: TUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN:ZHAG_BON004.A0101_Luk10
Distance: 1.5399% / 0.01539918
39.2TUR_Marmara_Barcin_Hofmanova_N
21.2TUR_Marmara_Barcin_N
19.0MKD_N
18.4BGR_Dzhulyunitsa_N
1.8BGR_Merichleri_MLBA
0.4RUS_Kura_Araxes_outlier


CLEAR OUTPUT CYCLES - 0.25XREDUCE - NOADD DIST COL - NOPRINT ZEROES - NOAGGREGATE - YESADD BAR CHART - MODE 1RUN ALLTUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN:ZHAG_BON004.A0101_Luk10TUR_C_Boncuklu_PPN.SG:Bon002.SGTUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3916TUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I3917_allTUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4029_allTUR_C_Gordion_Anc:I4030_allTUR_C_Kalehöyük_MLBA:MA2200_final.SG


I usually use another way to visualize.
Here is "Multi":
 

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Last edited:
Just_a_Common_Guy said:
Afrocentrists are as stupid as white supremacists.
Click to expand...

Look at that guy's art, he has put a Sub-Saharan African in the ancient Chinese Xianrendong Cave (20,000 BP). I knew they tried to claim Ancient Egypt, the Minoan culture, all of Ancient Greece, Persia, various European lords, mesoamerican civilization, etc.

Jovialis said:
Much of American academia has been a joke for decades. It used to be that STEM, Finance and Business degrees were considered the only useful ones to go for. But even more recently, some woke "experts" are trying to "de-colonize" mathematics. Also, because of the Biden administration, they have now required colleges to have Equity officers, who look for racism, etc...

Funny thing is, I was more liberal before going to college. By the time I was finished, I was a lot more conservative.
Click to expand...

Good thing on rejecting group-think and being able to go against the tide. STEM is coming under attack too. Scientific American ran a long, unhinged hit piece on E. O. Wilson after he died.
 
Bgtrak said:
I created my own Global-25 dataset (PCA data).
I usually use another way to visualize.
Click to expand...


First of all, congratulations for your work. If you may, a tutorial would be very greatly appreciated.

Secondly, because I don't follow the conversation on Gordion, do your data match what is said about them on eg?
 
eupator said:
First of all, congratulations for your work. If you may, a tutorial would be very greatly appreciated.

Secondly, because I don't follow the conversation on Gordion, do your data match what is said about them on eg?
Click to expand...

But, why is he mixing samples from different timelines? Wouldn't that create some sort of collision or imprecise calculation? How i see this calculator is that the source is like the contextual source of truth, there is no definite truth.
 
Hawk said:
But, why is he mixing samples from different timelines? Wouldn't that create some sort of collision or imprecise calculation? How i see this calculator is that the source is like the contextual source of truth, there is no definite truth.
Click to expand...


Who is?

You have to forgive me, I am not following the Gordian-related argumentation so I am not sure who is doing what.
 
eupator said:
Who is?

You have to forgive me, I am not following the Gordian-related argumentation so I am not sure who is doing what.
Click to expand...

My mistake, i thought bgtrak created that model, but it was Davidski. So, i am just wondering is it a good practice to mix samples in a model 1 being from Neolithic and 1 from Iron Age/Classical Antiquity?
 
Hawk said:
My mistake, i thought bgtrak created that model, but it was Davidski. So, i am just wondering is it a good practice to mix samples in a model 1 being from Neolithic and 1 from Iron Age/Classical Antiquity?
Click to expand...


Probably not.

I am a bit disappointed with the quality of the arguments against Lazaridis' (2022) findings (in this case the lack of EHG in Anatolia).
 
eupator said:
First of all, congratulations for your work. If you may, a tutorial would be very greatly appreciated.

Secondly, because I don't follow the conversation on Gordion, do your data match what is said about them on eg?
Click to expand...

Global 25 are using 25 dimensions for their PCA analysis. You do the distance matrix, then scale it for the first 25 principal components.

I do full calculation for 35 dimensions, then I take only the first 25 to convert for Global25 data format.
 
Hawk said:
My mistake, i thought bgtrak created that model, but it was Davidski. So, i am just wondering is it a good practice to mix samples in a model 1 being from Neolithic and 1 from Iron Age/Classical Antiquity?
Click to expand...

I used the example from Davidski to test my data and Global-25 / vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia .

In general most of the numbers are matching those of Davidski.
I am not yet sure how the site vahaduo is processing their calculations.
My goal was to test the site vahaduo.
 
Bgtrak said:
I used the example from Davidski to test my data and Global-25 / vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia .
In general most of the numbers are matching those of Davidski.
I am not yet sure how the site vahaduo is processing their calculations.
My goal was to test the site vahaduo.
Click to expand...

Did you use the reich dataset?

If you did, would you mind testing a model with a modern sample using your own PCA?

I am interested in running Norwegian.DG with the following left breakdown:

Barcin
Yamnaya_Samara
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG(Villabruna, Bichon)
Israel_PPN

And one with:
Barcin
EHG(Samara and Karelia HG)
GanjDareh
Kotias
WHG
Israel_PPN

Thank you.
 
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