The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

[1337_]

It's sad because Philip built the first great European Empire. Look at those Macedonians. Literally fall on the Illyrian cluster.



I'm not really trying to make some nationalist point here, because ancient Macedonians are a dead people. They in fact have no direct descendants. I just don't like this deference to everything in southern Balkans is Greek without question/without exception, while the meaning of the word "Greek" itself has changed countless times.

Let's keep some nuance here.

Same way you claimed Southern Illyrians etc would be 100% like Greeks or cluster like Greeks because of some Albanians, you claimed they would be Myceanean like, now you're saying Ancient Macedonians are different and acting like you have been knowing this for years ? Yet we can see even some Illyrians in Northern Albania in fact do not cluster like Greeks.

Let's also not forget these other exotic minorities such as the Caucasian and East Med / Levant shifted ones which could of produced more southern people.

 

[enter_tain]

now you're saying Ancient Macedonians are different and acting like you have been knowing this for years ?

Learn to read. I literally made a chart about this

I didn't say Illyrians = Myceneans. That's why I made a box/region. I said pre-Slavic (i.e. Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial) Illyrians would plot close to Mycenaeans, i.e. classic southern Europeans.

How close Greeks are to southern Illyrians/Albanians would depend with time/era. I've made it clear that even linguistically Proto-Illyrians and Proto-Greeks were different people.

 

[ihype02]

I have always known that Albanians migrated to many parts of Albania and Epirus during the Middle Ages expect for Catholic Mountains (mostly Albanian toponyms) part where J2b peaks. I just thought people of Balkans were genetically identical so we would not be able to recognize the movement.
Most R1b is probably Thracian too. The Illyrian component must be around 30% from paternal side.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

All I am saying is that those samples are not old Macedonians. Whenever the ancient Ancient Macedonians were similar to those samples I don't know. I would never guess it. But you never know.

They seem to plot with Northern Italians in G25.

Some interesting findings, looking through the Y DNA of the study. An Albanian is in the Y DNA branch of an ancient Greek from near Delphi of the Archaic period.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-S27463/

Other findings are that the two J-L70 branches from southwest Anatolia in the Middle Ages are below J-Z423, the branch of the late antiquity and medieval Roman samples that are downstream. This was in Mugla, a place that was settled or controlled by Carians and ancient Greeks. Turks, Greeks and Albanians are in this branch as well. Another interesting finding is J-L25 in Halicarnassus in ca 260 bc. That is a parent branch of L70.

As for two Archaic age Macedonia samples from Orhid, they have a haplogroup that was in the Cyclades over 4,000 years ago, and in Croatia before that (J-Y13128).

 

[ihype02]

Pre Slavic ancestors of Peloponnesians seem to be in between the Roman Atticans and Classical Greeks.

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 0.9296% / 0.00929583
37.6	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
32.4	GRC_Marathon_Rom
30.0	Polish

 

[Moja]

Would you please explain to me what CHG means in this study?

 

[Angela]

Pre Slavic ancestors of Peloponnesians seem to be in between the Roman Atticans and Classical Greeks.

Target: Greek_Peloponnese Distance: 0.9296% / 0.00929583
37.6	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
32.4	GRC_Marathon_Rom
30.0	Polish

I found it interesting that in the body of the paper on Southern Europe, I think, Lazaridis alluded to the fact that the Athenians may indeed have had less steppe.

 

[Stuvanè]

Would you please explain to me what CHG means in this study?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_hunter-gatherer

Sent from my SM-J730F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

 

[Duarte]

The genetic history of the Southern Arc: scaled G25 coordinates produced by Davidski for 602 samples from the study: https://docs.google.com/file/d/1pRl...tBt7Eno/edit?usp=docslist_api&filetype=msword

Playing with all 602 samples and my kit (top 25)

Distance to:	Duarte_G25simulated_scaled
0.04758205	HRV_IA:I5725
0.05397811	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18747
0.05561206	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18738
0.05619766	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18413
0.05681342	HRV_IA:I5723
0.05707477	HRV_IA:I5726
0.05802832	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18072
0.05808964	HRV_IA:I5728
0.05844353	HRV_BA:I18748
0.05849401	HRV_IA:I5729
0.05871673	HRV_BA:I5073
0.05951358	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18727
0.05962887	HRV_Anc:I18831
0.05990183	HRV_BA:I5074
0.05996837	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18724
0.06058799	SRB_BA:I16803
0.06069491	HRV_BA:I18712
0.06083012	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18746
0.06087041	SRB_BA:I17912
0.06116966	ALB_Çinamak_Anc:I14690
0.06226113	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729
0.06237297	BGR_Tell_Ezero_EBA:I19459
0.06263422	HRV_Cetina_BA:I18745
0.06265909	HRV_BA:I5080
0.06265925	MNE_LBA:I13775

Distance to:	Duarte_G25simulated_scaled
0.03495326	81.20% HRV_IA:I5725 + 18.80% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.03704231	82.00% HRV_IA:I5725 + 18.00% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.03717411	72.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18732 + 27.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.03810109	77.20% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18413 + 22.80% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.03891678	73.00% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18739 + 27.00% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.03995725	72.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18732 + 27.40% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.03996692	90.00% HRV_IA:I5725 + 10.00% ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072_d
0.04020887	73.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18417 + 26.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.04063284	77.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18413 + 22.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.04079180	74.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18417 + 25.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04082385	73.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071:I18717 + 26.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04119301	77.20% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18072 + 22.80% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04127615	88.40% HRV_IA:I5725 + 11.60% JOR_PPNB:I1700
0.04138120	76.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18727 + 23.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04152426	75.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18724 + 24.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.04195557	73.80% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18730 + 26.20% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04204491	89.00% HRV_IA:I5725 + 11.00% JOR_PPNB:I1414
0.04214172	83.40% HRV_IA:I5725 + 16.60% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Çapalıbağ_Mdv:I20327
0.04220497	84.80% HRV_IA:I5725 + 15.20% TUR_Aegean_Muğla_Çapalıbağ_Mdv:I20322_d
0.04238330	75.20% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729 + 24.80% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04260934	87.80% HRV_IA:I5725 + 12.20% TUR_Aegean_Bodrum_Halikarnassos_Anc2:I3303
0.04265819	74.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18082 + 25.40% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372
0.04279413	89.40% HRV_IA:I5725 + 10.60% JOR_PPNC_1d.rel.I1699:I1708
0.04282862	73.60% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18739 + 26.40% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8369
0.04292738	74.40% HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18737 + 25.60% TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372

Target: Duarte_G25simulated_scaled Distance: 0.0315% / 0.03148512
48.3	HRV_IA
28.4	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA
19.2	TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B
3.0	ROU_Ploieşti_Mdv
1.1	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071

Post scriptum: Mixed mode Disaggregated. Labels by Er Monnezza

Target: Duarte_G25simulated_scaled Distance: 0.0315% / 0.03148512
48.3	HRV_IA:I5725___R-Y4355___BC_604___Coverage_54.10%
19.2	TUR_Marmara_İznik_Basilica_RomByz_B:I8372___female___AD_385___Coverage_76.22%
16.4	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18413___female___BC_1150___Coverage_36.23%
7.5	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18729___R-BY150850___BC_1150___Coverage_51.93%
4.5	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA:I18417___R-L2___BC_1150___Coverage_62.66%
3.0	ROU_Ploieşti_Mdv:I10495___G-Y12277___AD_1007___Coverage_67.83%
1.1	HRV_Bezdanjača_BA_brother.I18078.father.I18071:I18717___R-L2___BC_1150___Coverage_45.18%

 

[Moja]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_hunter-gatherer

Sent from my SM-J730F using Eupedia Forum mobile app

I know but it seems they have considered Iran_N as just CHG in this study.

 

[kingjohn]

Most surprising thing for me in G25, ancient Armenians were practically Georgian/Dagestani in modern autosomal terms. It seems current Armenian genetic profile is influenced by Semitic admix from the south, hence their similarity to Assyrians!

Distance to: ARM_Tekhut_LBA:I16554
0.02932237 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Tavshut_Trialeti_MBA:I14813
0.03379945 Chechen

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20444
0.03094688 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_unknown:I20436
0.04410356 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20443
0.04323425 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Sarukhan_EIA:I20441
0.04001783 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_UrartianPeriod_son.I17181:I16219
0.04063507 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I17180
0.02512296 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16194
0.03775583 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16193
0.02858927 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Pijut_Urartian:I16191
0.02869918 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19329
0.03723556 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19326
0.03457680 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19325
0.02866591 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I19323
0.03621192 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_LBA:I18486
0.02997043 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I19321
0.03179903 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18481
0.03537578 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18470
0.03418648 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18469
0.03928058 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_EIA:I18468
0.03837145 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Noratus_Anc:I19327
0.02719499 Armenian_Yerevan

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA_son.I18166:I15731
0.04154020 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15733
0.02816677 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Nerkin_Getashen_LBA:I15732
0.03115507 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Masis_Blur_N:I3930
0.04988829 Armenian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I16196
0.04164622 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LBA:I13948
0.03067265 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lori_Berd_LateUrartian_A:I13947
0.04221220 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18277
0.03366305 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18276
0.03982279 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Lchashen_LBA:I18168
0.02733178 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_Urartian:I17184
0.02586090 Georgian_Imeretian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_LBA:I17183
0.04204312 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Keti_EIA:I18478
0.04309739 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Karnut_EIA:I16707
0.03278237 Tabasaran

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_Urartian_outlier:I13035
0.05038542 Georgian_Jew

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I13031
0.05254543 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_EIA:I3938
0.04030108 Georgian_Kartlian

Distance to: ARM_Karmir_Blur_Anc:I16119
0.02033164 Turkish_East_Erzurum

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19354
0.02842504 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19348
0.03728675 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19346
0.02618087 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19345
0.02998842 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19341
0.03752503 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19336
0.02695046 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19335
0.04009949 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19334
0.03324779 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19333
0.02934099 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19332
0.03702330 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I19331
0.03862803 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_LBA:I16220
0.03625351 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19353
0.03289810 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19349
0.03316500 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Karashamb_EIA:I19343
0.02903097 Zoroastrian_Iran

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18238
0.03541867 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18237
0.03414788 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Harjis_LateUrartian:I18161
0.03869954 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Dzori_Gekh_LBA:I16120
0.02986049 Turkish_East_Erzurum

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14057
0.03102258 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14055
0.03283235 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14054
0.03345583 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Brardzryal_Urartian:I14053
0.02234750 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Bragdzor_EIA_father.I16536.brother.I16553:I165 46
0.04018039 Georgian_Imeretian

Distance to: ARM_Bragdzor_EIA:I16536
0.03064459 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16376
0.03129887 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bover_Urartian:I16117
0.03793360 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18165
0.02582474 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18163
0.03958437 Azeri_Dagestan

Distance to: ARM_Black_Fortress_LBA:I18162
0.02983101 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA_father.or.son.I14343:I 14340
0.03356613 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14343
0.03207987 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14341
0.03311907 Georgian_Kakhetian

Distance to: ARM_Berkaber_KuraAraxes_EBA:I14339
0.03155139 Georgian_Kartlian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_son.I14603.son.I14619:I1461 7
0.03295743 Georgian_Tushetian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA_brother.I14619:I14065
0.03379230 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14620
0.03617282 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14619
0.02622309 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14618
0.02941605 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14606
0.03149678 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14601
0.03955380 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Bagheri_Tchala_EIA:I14588
0.02715710 Georgian_Khevsurian

Distance to: ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931
0.04513741 Georgian_Meskhian

Distance to: ARM_Aghitu_Anc_father.or.son.of.I1636:I1637
0.03036289 Udi

Distance to: ARM_Aghitu_Anc:I1636
0.02218149 Armenian_Syunik

i think the reason is mainly that they had higher steppe ancestery than modern armenians

 

[broder]

Checked these two tonight:

- I7231 (1371-1123BCE) Ulanci-Gradsko, North Macedonia: CTS7556+ CTS1450-

- I10377 (700-500BCE) Bucinci-Skopje, North Macedonia:
Reported as M269 (low coverage sample, no coverage for most major nodes downstream of M269. Like L23, L51, Z2103, PF7562 etc).

 

[Moja]

We have great info, most of Urartian samples are R1b, it seems ancient Urartians, a non-Indo-European people, had about 60% CHG, 12% Levant and 22% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N.

 

[Pax Augusta]

We have great info, most of Urartian samples are R1b, it seems ancient Urartians, a non-Indo-European people, had about 60% CHG, 12% Levant and 22% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N.

Are the ancient Urartians all R1b1a1b1b-Z2103?

 

[eupator]

We have great info, most of Urartian samples are R1b, it seems ancient Urartians, a non-Indo-European people, had 60% CHG, 12% Levant and 22% TUR_Marmara_Barcın_N.

I was going to make a post about this but you beat me to it, the Urartians seem to be exclusively R-L584>R-FGC14590>R-19434>R-12332 (mah ancestors, *sniff* :sadcry.

Upstream of them @ R-FC14590 (and also one at R-Y19434) there are several IA Hajji-Firruz/IA Hasanlu samples (Medes?).

 

[Moja]

Are the ancient Urartians all R1b1a1b1b-Z2103?

It seems to be so, most of Iron Age samples from Hasanlu in the northwest of Iran are also R1b, this region was also part of Urartu in the first millennium BC: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333088601_Hasanlu_The_Southern_Caucasus_and_Early_Urartu

 

[Jovialis]

Your subclade was found in Mycenae, in the Palace of Nestor. Looks like your Bronze Age forefather was calming the hot blood between Agamemnon and Achilles.

That is really incredible! Especially after just having been to the National Archaeological Museum in Athens, Greece, and seeing the mask of Agamemnon.

 

[Moja]

I was going to make a post about this but you beat me to it, the Urartians seem to be exclusively R-L584>R-FGC14590>R-19434>R-12332 (mah ancestors, *sniff* :sadcry.

Upstream of them @ R-FC14590 (and also one at R-Y19434) there are several IA Hajji-Firruz/IA Hasanlu samples (Medes?).

IA Hajji-Firuz/IA Hasanlu in the south of Lake Urmia. was one of the main centers of Urartians in the Iron Age, Musasir, the holy city of Urartu was in the same region: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musasir Several Urartian inscriptions have been found there, Medes lived in Ecbatana, more than 500 km away from this region.

 

[Hawk]

The Hurro-Urartians being in majority R1b-Z2103 is a huge surprise, they lived in proximity with Proto-Armenians though.

 

[1337_]

Learn to read. I literally made a chart about this

I didn't say Illyrians = Myceneans. That's why I made a box/region. I said pre-Slavic (i.e. Iron Age Illyrians + Roman Imperial) Illyrians would plot close to Mycenaeans, i.e. classic southern Europeans.

How close Greeks are to southern Illyrians/Albanians would depend with time/era. I've made it clear that even linguistically Proto-Illyrians and Proto-Greeks were different people.

Many of these Illyrian samples are not even close to Myceneans. Even in Northern Albania there are samples that cluster like Northern Italian, Kosovo Albanian etc.

Maybe in Central and Southern Albania they clustered like Greeks and some Central / Southern Albanians , certainly does not seem to apply for entire Illyrian area in Albania nor the Albanian genetic cluster. There are many Albanians who are not even cluse to Myceneans nor Greeks genetically, actually Albanians on average are more north.