The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Vallicanus said:
With all due respect to Lazaridis et alia, I'm R1b and Beaker-descended not an R1a Corded Ware bod.
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try to remember that twitter IS NOT Science magazine. Linguistically speaking (not my area though) it might have been better stated that: Armenian, Albanian and Greek languages are not linked to the Corded Ware, while Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages are somewhat related to the Corded Ware.
 
Silesian said:
How come there are no CordedWare R1a samples in Bell Beakers, when we can find 2 Yamnaya Bell Beakers (R1b-Z2103) in Hungary, buried near R1b-L51.
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Strange question.

I look to Bell Beaker and R1b and not Corded Ware and R1a.
 
Bergin said:
try to remember that twitter IS NOT Science magazine. Linguistically speaking (not my area though) it might have been better stated that: Armenian, Albanian and Greek languages are not linked to the Corded Ware, while Balto-Slavic, Germanic and Italo-Celtic languages are somewhat related to the Corded Ware.
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Where's the Corded Ware R1a in Iron Age Latins (and Etruscans too, by the way who are non-IE-speakers but mostly R1b)?
 
Vallicanus said:
Where's the Corded Ware R1a in Iron Age Latins (and Etruscans too, by the way who are non-IE-speakers but mostly R1b)?
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Is the Bell-Beaker Culture descended from Corded-Ware or it was its contemporary steppe cousin culture?
 
A. Papadimitriou said:
Imho this paper is a ridiculous attempt to save the 'steppe hypothesis', not really oppose it.

Yamnaya itself may not have been IE in the first place.

Now we see another R1b-rich non-IE group who a) didn't care to impose their ancestral language (why?) or b) they were not speaking the language in the first place.
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You made a valid point here. Some people who superficially read the paper without bothering to take a closer look at the supplementary materials think that the Steppe origin of PIE was put to bed by the Harvard lab and replaced by the Near Eastern origin of PIE.

I took my time to read the paper in depth in order to examine its conclusion. The thing is, that Lazaridis and Reich in this study actually don't really challenge the Pontic Steppe PIE Urheimat as much as it appears at first glance. In fact, the evidence that supports the Kurgan theory is not being demolished by this Southern Arc paper.

Hence, the scientific consensus on the Steppe origin of PIE still stands, although Lazaridis and Reich do argue for an alternative narrative which suggests that "Proto-Indo-European originated in the Near East (including the Caucasus region which was genetically an extension of the Near East during the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age". With that being said, the authors leave lots of room for a plausible interpretation of their data that squares with the Kurganist position. The point is that there are too many gaps to completely explain in a conceivable way a south-of-Caucasus original homeland of PIE.


When the Southern Arc Abstract was posted here I said that I hope the paper won't turn out to be only much ado about nothing. It kinda is. Nevertheless, I can say that these 3 studies from the Reich Lab are still worth reading since they provide us with brand new samples and present an overview of the genetic landscape of Anatolia, Armenia, the Balkans, etc in connection with Indo- European.
 
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Hawk said:
Is the Bell-Beaker Culture descended from Corded-Ware or it was its contemporary steppe cousin culture?
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I know Davidski is a controversial figure. That said he suggested in 2017-2018 that Bell Beakers are just a subgroup of Corded Ware. So it seems that he is being proven right.
 
real expert said:
I know Davidski is a controversial figure. That said he suggested in 2017-2018 that Bell Beakers are just a subgroup of Corded Ware. So it seems that he is being proven right.
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It defies logic.

How can an overwhelmingly R1a ethnicity, the Corded Ware people, give birth to an R1b population?
 
real expert said:
I know Davidski is a controversial figure. That said he suggested in 2017-2018 that Bell Beakers are just a subgroup of Corded Ware. So it seems that he is being proven right.
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It has been a popular theory since long before 2017.
 
Vallicanus said:
Where's the Corded Ware R1a in Iron Age Latins (and Etruscans too, by the way who are non-IE-speakers but mostly R1b)?
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it was not my goal to take a position on R1a or R1b. just stating that tweeter is not the same as a peer reviewed paper.
In the paper both CW and BB are mentioned together as sharing the same and equal percentage of CHG and EHG coming from Yamnaya. I do think that the two cultures have some overlaping horizon.

maybe you support Mollory in his BB hypothesis for the above mentioned language families? i dont think these 3 paper deal in that topic ....

Hattic is mentioned as coexisting with ie languages in Anatolia, something similar might have happened in Italy too for some time for etruscan.
 
real expert said:
I know Davidski is a controversial figure. That said he suggested in 2017-2018 that Bell Beakers are just a subgroup of Corded Ware. So it seems that he is being proven right.
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Culturally they overlapped, technologies, tools, etc and linguistically I think Corded-Ware was the one that spread IE into Bell Beaker Territory. However, I went back and read the Olade et al 2018 paper which analyzed 226 Bell Beakers from all over Europe and some had significant Steppe > 50% (Germany, Scotland, England, etc) reaching > 60% in England and Scotland in some samples and some had zero Steppe.

So some Bell Beaker groups were not only culturally similar to Corded-Ware, but also similar Genetically. The Others were culturally and linguistically similar to Corded Ware, but genetically not similar

At least that is the take I get from the Olade et al 2018 paper. Here is a copy of the paper (Final published form in Nature behind paywall)


The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe - PMC (nih.gov)
 
Vallicanus said:
It defies logic.

How can an overwhelmingly R1a ethnicity, the Corded Ware people, give birth to an R1b population?
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Of course it's not logical that's what makes it so appealing and exotic to some. How many Bell Beaker samples are there? Not one R1a? On the other hand way out in the far reaches of Mongolia there is R1b-L51 in Afanasievo. Not only that, when they tested R1b in Corded Ware Poland it preferred Afanasievo over Yamnaya, how to explain that?
 
Palermo Trapani said:
Culturally they overlapped, technologies, tools, etc and linguistically I think Corded-Ware was the one that spread IE into Bell Beaker Territory. However, I went back and read the Olade et al 2018 paper which analyzed 226 Bell Beakers from all over Europe and some had significant Steppe > 50% (Germany, Scotland, England, etc) reaching > 60% in England and Scotland in some samples and some had zero Steppe.

So some Bell Beaker groups were not only culturally similar to Corded-Ware, but also similar Genetically. The Others were culturally and linguistically similar to Corded Ware, but genetically not similar

At least that is the take I get from the Olade et al 2018 paper. Here is a copy of the paper (Final published form in Nature behind paywall)


The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe - PMC (nih.gov)
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The "Beakers" with no steppe are the Iberian ones. The R1b bearing people who went to Britain, France, Iberia, and Italy were half steppe and half local European farmers of the LN/Chl whom they absorbed as they exited the steppe. They merely adopted the "Beakers" or "cups", along with wrist guards etc.

This caused confusion for years.

To simplify it drastically, what may be the case is that there were two groups of steppe people who exited the steppe perhaps at around the same time and from approximately the same area, with one group carrying R1a whose local women made cups decorated with a cord and became the "Corded Ware" group, and one group carrying R1b who adopted the "Beaker" cups. The R1a carrying group may originally have had more EHG than the R1b carrying group.

It may actually just be that simple.
 
Angela said:
The "Beakers" with no steppe are the Iberian ones. The R1b bearing people who went to Britain, France, Iberia, and Italy were half steppe and half local European farmers of the LN/Chl whom they absorbed as they exited the steppe. They merely adopted the "Beakers" or "cups", along with wrist guards etc.

This caused confusion for years.

To simplify it drastically, what may be the case is that there were two groups of steppe people who exited the steppe perhaps at around the same time and from approximately the same area, with one group carrying R1a whose local women made cups decorated with a cord and became the "Corded Ware" group, and one group carrying R1b who adopted the "Beaker" cups. The R1a carrying group may originally have had more EHG than the R1b carrying group.

It may actually just be that simple.
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This works for me.
 
Silesian said:
Thanks, but I'm interested in the arc regions and Iran. Are you aware of any R1a samples that predate R1b in Iran?
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No, there are just some R1b samples in the northwest of Iran and Armenia that all of them seem to be Urartians.
 
Vallicanus said:
It defies logic.

How can an overwhelmingly R1a ethnicity, the Corded Ware people, give birth to an R1b population?
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​Ask Lazaridis and Davidski that! I'm merely presenting the info. Anyway if I could throw in my two cents and my memory serves me right, Corded Ware also carried R1b and their R1b is more closely related to Bellbeaker than Yamnaya's R1b. With that being said, Reich believes that Corded Ware rather comes from Yamnaya.
 
Pax Augusta said:
It has been a popular theory since long before 2017.
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That may be the case. Anyway, I did not assert or allude that Davidski was the first or only guy who made this suggestion, to begin with. Moreover, the fact that this theory was popular before 2017 doesn't change the fact that some years ago he did propose Bell Beaker being a subgroup of Corded Ware. Plus, I'm well aware of the things Davidski got completely wrong.
 
Angela said:
The "Beakers" with no steppe are the Iberian ones. The R1b bearing people who went to Britain, France, Iberia, and Italy were half steppe and half local European farmers of the LN/Chl whom they absorbed as they exited the steppe. They merely adopted the "Beakers" or "cups", along with wrist guards etc.

This caused confusion for years.

To simplify it drastically, what may be the case is that there were two groups of steppe people who exited the steppe perhaps at around the same time and from approximately the same area, with one group carrying R1a whose local women made cups decorated with a cord and became the "Corded Ware" group, and one group carrying R1b who adopted the "Beaker" cups. The R1a carrying group may originally have had more EHG than the R1b carrying group.

It may actually just be that simple.
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i think the question is: did CW opt to develop into Balto-slavic while BB into germanic, romance and celtic? Or did CW speak some proto version of all three?
 
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