The genetic history of the Southern Arc-Lazaridis et al

Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.

One sample from Hellenistic Thessaloniki seem to plot intermediate modern Sicilians and IA Peloponnesians. So basically similar to Southern Ancient Greeks but with a little bit more (+5%) steppe. I would expect them to be more like the Thracian/South Greek samples as the model suggests.
 
Why do you refer to an IA Thraco-Illyrian sample as Ancient Macedonian? Let's keep it historically accurate.

I am delighted that we have IA samples from that region. So it plots close to the Thessalian Log 02 and Log 04 samples. I long speculated that during the Iron Age another wave of people were absorbed into the Hellenic mainframe. And these people may have lived in the North parts of Greece or beyond that. My guess is that Ancient Macedonians would plot somewhere in between the Thraco-Illyrians (NMK) and the Mycenaeans. But frankly, I think most Classical Greeks will plot there.

The naming I went for is arbitrary, but loosely based on the clusters. IIRC, I named that 10 o'clock cluster, Ancient Macedonian because it was homogenously made out of ANC_MKD. Now, as with most arbitrary things, it can be debated, but even the alternatives would be arbitrary.

I would have been on the camp of these samples being Illyrians as well, cause autosomally they look Cetina derived or at least very similar to the Cinamak and Velika/Mala Gruda samples. But it is clear that patrilinearly they are distinct, and looking at the Y-DNA these could indeed be ancient Macedonians. I think their autosomal profile even fits the historical accounts. But all this is, is speculation, until Greek academies test ancient Macedonians proper.
 
One sample from Hellenistic Thessaloniki seem to plot intermediate modern Sicilians and IA Peloponnesians. So basically similar to Southern Ancient Greeks but with a little bit more (+5%) steppe. I would expect them to be more like the Thracian/South Greek samples as the model suggests.

I wouldn't be surprised that Hellenistic people from Macedonia proper plot closer to Mycenaean peoples. For starters, unlike the South Illyrians, the Macedonians inhabited an area next to the Aegean. But I like to keep an open mind. Perhaps the Ancient Macedonians are closer to the proto-Hellenic (or Greco-Phrygian) source which gave Mycenaeans steppe ancestry. They lagged behind in the mountains, maintaining their old ways and traditions, but also keeping some of these older genes. Ofcourse eventually they desolved. Perhaps even before the Hellenistic Age.
 
The naming I went for is arbitrary, but loosely based on the clusters. IIRC, I named that 10 o'clock cluster, Ancient Macedonian because it was homogenously made out of ANC_MKD. Now, as with most arbitrary things, it can be debated, but even the alternatives would be arbitrary.

The alternatives would have been arbitrary indeed. But labeling them Ancient Macedonian is simply false.
 
The alternatives would have been arbitrary indeed. But labeling them Ancient Macedonian is simply false.

Macedonia is Greek up until the DNA tests come out :LOL::LOL:

Those samples southeast of Ohrid are clearly part of Upper Macedonia (western Macedonia). Paeonians were also ruled by Macedonians and were under their direct control/sphere of influence, and showed no difference to those other samples.

The border between Albania/Macedonia in ancient times was all the way in Albania, where the siege of Pelium was fought somewhere in Korce.
 
Why don't you wait until we have more samples?

For what? We know modern day Korce was the Illyrian/Macedonian division at the city of Pelium (Greek name btw). Anything east of that was Upper Macedonia.

Maybe all these Greek people should go read their own history and see that before Alexander ancient Greeks called Macedonians "barbarians" i.e. "foreigners".

Demosthenes on Philip

"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave" "
 
When the greatest orator of ancient Greece calls your king "no Greek, not related to Greeks" and a "barbarian", maybe Idk...start questioning the whole Macedonia = Greek thing.
 
We have been there before. Macedon kings have been participating in the Olympics (which had a strict rule of only allowing Greeks in) centuries before Alexander. As for Demosthenes, once again, he was a mortal political enemy of Philip and his son, of course he would slander them. Not even “Barbarian” means much unless besides Macedon, also Mytilene was non Greek now.

In Plato's Protagoras, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect of Pittacus of Mytilene as "barbarian" (barbaros),[2] because of its difference from the Attic literary style:[3] "He didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect".

For someone calling out Greeks on their history, you surely don’t know much about it.
 
Macedonia is Greek up until the DNA tests come out :LOL::LOL:

You are missing the point. Macedonian samples are only Macedonian until we have Macedonian samples and not Paeonian.

Furthermore, the Paeonian samples which are compared to Mycenaeans are from a different period of time as well. On that note, the differences between Paeonians and Bronze Age Greeks is, if anything, quite minimal. I.e. there are far bigger genetic differences within the gene-pool of modern Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Turks etc. today. I am actually quite amazed that some of the Iron Age South Illyrians and Thracians plot so close to the Bronze Age Greeks who are more Mediterranean than the modern Greeks. From my perspective, they could easily have been justified as Ancient Greeks where they part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. It clearly seems, however, that Thraco-Illyrians were not part of that culture.

Those samples southeast of Ohrid are clearly part of Upper Macedonia (western Macedonia).

The people inhabiting that area were Molossians. Which goes to show what was the most northern plotted Ancient Greek tribe during the Iron Age.

Cavalli-Sforza was right. He noticed this genetic signature in the 80s. Ancient Greeks, South Illyrians, Phrygians, South Thracians were all genetically similar. The rest is cherry picking for modern political agenda's.

pc4.jpg
 
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You are missing the point. Macedonian samples are only Macedonian until we have Macedonian samples and not Paeonian.

Furthermore, the Paeonian samples which are compared to Mycenaeans are from a different period of time as well. On that note, the differences between Paeonians and Bronze Age Greeks is, if anything, quite minimal. I.e. there are far bigger genetic differences within the gene-pool of modern Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Turks etc. today. I am actually quite amazed that some of the Iron Age South Illyrians and Thracians plot so close to the Bronze Age Greeks who are more Mediterranean than the modern Greeks. From my perspective, they could easily have been justified as Ancient Greeks where they part of the greater Greek cultural mainframe. It clearly seems, however, that Thraco-Illyrians were not part of that culture.



The people inhabiting that area were Molossians. Which goes to show what was the most northern plotted Ancient Greek tribe during the Iron Age.

Cavalli-Sforza was right. He noticed this genetic signature in the 80s. Ancient Greeks, South Illyrians, Phrygians, South Thracians were all genetically similar. The rest is cherry picking for modern political agenda's.

View attachment 13595

Upper (West) Macedonia is not Paeoian. Like I said, Alexander fought the Illyrians at the city of Korce in Albania today. The city's name was "Pelion". Anything east of that was Macedonian territory.

And obviously they're all southern European populations, but that doesn't mean they're all identical. There are clear clusters.
 
Some people here, must realize 2 things,

1, Minoans, major Myceneans, what we called Helladic civilizations, may not be 'pure IE'
2, IE came to Helladic space from North, from Vucocar,
3, comcerning the Mycenean world, and the Hellenic non Mycenean we understand the exact migrations,
4, the Northern points of Myceneans are mt Olymp, and Dodone sacred grounds,
5, The Northern areas of Proto-Greek is lake lychinitis today Ohrid,
6, the pass of Greco-Brygian to Proto-Greek to Classical Greek, has a lot of changes, one basic is Dias to Theos,
that means when primitive Greek pass to Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean etc world, linguistic changes happened,
same happens after Roman occupation, Christianity, and Slavic entrance, changes like Basilice to Vasilike needs milleniums to become Lingua Franca, and may not happen if there is no starter,

Now considering the complex co-existance of Makedonians with Brygians, and all what today scientists found, develop and apply,
Major Makedonians and Epirotes were more from the stuff that was closer to Greco-Brygian, than the older Minoan-Minyan-Mycenean stuff.

220px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png




Mycenaean_world_empty.png
 
Upper (West) Macedonia is not Paeoian. Like I said, Alexander fought the Illyrians at the city of Korce in Albania today. The city's name was "Pelion". Anything east of that was Macedonian territory.

And obviously they're all southern European populations, but that doesn't mean they're all identical. There are clear clusters.

Pelagonia was populated by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.
 
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Pelagonia was settled by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.


Molossians are Greek like Epirotes

Chaones are non-Greek like Epirotes
 
Pelagonia was settled by Molossians when it was annexed by the Macedonans during the Classical Age. I don't know exactly if the Molossians were inhabiting the area during the Iron Age as well. The Macedonians certainly weren't. The alternative is that some Illyrian tribe was settled there. Either way, if they were Molossians, then we have the Northern most Greek tribe during the Iron Age. Which is remarkable in itself. I have long argued that post-Bronze Age Greeks probably had more steppe admixture. And I always believed that there must have been some regional differences among Greeks during the classical era and that we shouldn't expect all of them to be exactly like Myceneans. I also think that there was a second wave into South Greece from this proto-Hellenic area.




?????????????
 
The samples from Marvinci is actually ancient Idomenae as archeologist believe which is pretty close to Macedonian core if you want to put Emathia as such,and by the time some of this samples are dated Idomenae was ancient Macedonian domain I guess,how much and whether Emathians or Macedonians were different from Idomenae samples we should wait and see.
 
Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia.
 
Polybius (23.10.4) mentions that Emathia was earliest called Paeonia and Strabo (frg 7.38) that Paeonia was extended to Pieria and Pelagonia.

I trust those as much as I trust Herodotus when it comes to geography of distant places.
 
I trust those as much as I trust Herodotus when it comes to geography of distant places.
For some things we trust for some things we don't however is worth mentioning and especially that ancient Macedonians were not aliens to their neighbors.Read for example about the Paeonian tribe of Agrianes and their service in the Macedonian army.Thracians, Illyrians or any other so it will not be surprise even if they will appear genetically similar.And I do not question their Greekness do not care whatever they were.
 
For some things we trust for some things we don't however is worth mentioning and especially that ancient Macedonians were not aliens to their neighbors.Read for example about the Paeonian tribe of Agrianes and their service in the Macedonian army.Thracians, Illyrians or any other so it will not be surprise even if they will appear genetically similar.And I do not question their Greekness do not care whatever they were.

The reason that object to it is that the Macedons were a pretty small tribe, just couple of cities in Pella and Agai. I would be surprised if they were a total of 20,000 people. How ever their kings were very astute and married well with the daughters of their neighboring chieftains. Phillip had 8 wives. They expanded their kingdom through marriage, alliances and conquests. The conquered Illyrians, Paeonians and Thracians were not Macedonians. Were the Macedonians very close genetically to their neighbors? Absolutely. As far as Greenness is concerned they participated in the Olympic Games, and they spoke a rough dialect of Doric Greek. I would have a hard time understanding a old Cretan speaking their local dialect or a Pontic Greek. A few words here and there maybe...I would expect that the Athenians would have a hard time understanding the Macedons, particularly the peasants. But then there were 230 minor Greek tribes in antiquity, each speaking a local dialect and using a slightly different alphabet.
 

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