Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 224

Thread: A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

  1. #1
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    9 members found this post helpful.

    A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

    Lazaridis has been very busy.

    A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia:

    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abq0755


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    "We begin with the Neolithic inhabitants (4, 6, 7), estimating proportions of ancestry using a five-source model that we developed for Southern Arc Holocene populations (1), which includes as proxies for the sources Caucasus hunter-gatherers (9), Eastern European hunter-gatherers (5, 10), Levantine Pre-Pottery Neolithic (11), Balkan hunter-gatherers from the Iron Gates in Serbia (7), and Northwestern Anatolian Neolithic from Barcın (5). We infer that not only Neolithic Greeks from the Peloponnese (7) but also those from Northern Greece (6) had ~8 to 10% Caucasus hunter-gatherer–related ancestry (Fig. 1C). We find small amounts of Caucasus hunter-gatherer–related ancestry in Southeastern Europe and Neolithic populations in general, which is different from the pattern in Central/Western Europe where there is none (1). This provides proof of multiple streams of migration from different Anatolian Neolithic populations into Europe."

    "
    any contribution of geographically intermediate populations (between the steppe and the Aegean) to the formation of Mycenaeans was minor. This conclusion is further supported by the following: (i) the lower (~5%) Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Neolithic of the Balkans compared with the ~20% inferred for the Aegean substratum (1), (ii) the near absence of Balkan hunter-gatherer (fig. S1) ancestry in the Aegean in contrast to other Southeastern European populations (~10%) (1), and (iii) the presence of Yamnaya-like individuals with minimal local ancestry—immediately to the north of the Aegean—in Albania and Bulgaria during the Early Bronze Age (1). Whatever the genetic makeup of people mediating the spread of steppe ancestry into the ancestors of Mycenaeans, the genetic impact of steppe on Aegean populations was quantitatively minor. We estimate the Yamnaya-related steppe ancestry proportion in Mycenaeans to be ~⅓ of the level of that in the Balkans to the north, ~½ of that in Armenia in the east, and ~⅕ to ⅛ of that of populations of Central/Northern Europe associated with the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultures (1)."

    Didn't need Saracens to bring Levant ancestry to Crete.

    "Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry as a marker for Yamnaya steppe pastoralist ancestry is absent in a newly reported Middle Minoan period individual from Zakros on the eastern edge of Crete. This individual’s ancestry is generally similar to those previously published (13), but with significant Levantine admixture (30.5 ± 9.1%), which is consistent with her either being a migrant to the island from the east or part of a structured Cretan population whose past ethnic diversity was noted as early as the Odyssey of Homer (Hom. Od. 19.172-177)."



  3. #3
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    So much for all the steppe in Mycenaeans which was bound to show up, and for there being a class structure with the elites having more steppe ancestry.

    "The Griffin Warrior (8), the earliest individual (~1450 BCE) from the Palace of Nestor in Pylos, is genetically right in the middle of the general population of the Aegean and was thus plausibly of entirely local Aegean origin. He had no detectable Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry (compared with the average of 4.8 ± 1.1% for the rest of the Mycenaean-era individuals sampled at the Palace; Fig. 1H). This finding could be consistent with a Cretan origin of this individual or his ancestors; alternatively, he could be drawn from a mainland population that had not experienced Eastern European hunter-gatherer admixture, as could two later individuals from Pylos—one buried near the Palace in a chamber tomb and another in a cist grave. Variation in Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry is observed at short geographical distance scales and within the same time periods: We observe that four individuals (~1450 BCE) of the sample from Attica buried at Kolikrepi-Spata had only 2 ± 1% Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry that was significantly less (by more than two standard errors) than that of individuals from the neighboring island of Salamis and all sampling locations in the Peloponnese. This suggests that the classical Athenian claim (e.g., Plat. Menex. 237b) of having received fewer migrants than other Greek poleis in the remote past may have had an element of truth, although larger sample sizes will be necessary to definitively establish such geographic patterns."

    "
    This is also attested in the male line, for example, by a Y chromosome match of the rare R-PF7562 haplogroup between a pair of patrilineal relatives from the Palace of Nestor, which links Late Bronze Age Mycenaean Greece with an Early Bronze Age individual of the North Caucasus at Lysogorskyja that is genetically similar to the Yamnaya (14). This patrilineal connection to the Yamnaya should not be interpreted as a general association of steppe ancestry with elite burial status, as the common people, making up most of our Mycenaean-era individuals, also had steppe ancestry, whereas some members of the elite (such as the Griffin Warrior) did not have significant evidence of it.

  4. #4
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Greek Colonization:

    " This identifies an Archaic period individual from Kastrouli near Delphi in Phokis on the Greek mainland and individuals at Empúries in Northeastern Spain who are genetically very similar to Mycenaean-era individuals from the Greek mainland (20). Empúries was an outpost colonized by Phocaeans from Western Anatolia, who were themselves said to be colonists from Phokis (Paus. 7.3.10). Thus, we capture the end points of a long chain of transmission, with little admixture, across the Mediterranean. "

    "
    Ancestry typical of the Mycenaean period also spread to the Eastern Mediterranean, as in the case of an individual from Ashkelon associated with a Philistine archaeological context (21). We also show the similarity of some individuals from inland Thrace (at Kapitan Andreevo) with the Mycenaean genetic profile, which suggests that Mycenaeans were genetically similar to some Thracians from the East Balkans, outside the sphere of the Late Bronze Age Aegean. This provides a cautionary tale highlighting the dangers of conflating genetic and cultural similarity."

    "
    The coastal regions of Anatolia formed another area of Greek settlement, and much of the Anatolian peninsula was incorporated into the Hellenistic kingdoms established by the successors of Alexander the Great, providing opportunity for population transfer from Southeastern Europe to Anatolia. Yet, we do not find Mycenaean-like individuals either at first millennium BCE Greek colony sites, such as Halicarnassus (modern Bodrum), or Amisos (modern Samsun) in the Aegean and Black Sea regions, respectively. This pattern is qualitatively different from that at Empúries in Iberia and is consistent with the account of Herodotus that early Greek colonists of Anatolia married indigenous Carian women of Anatolia when they first settled there (Hdt. 1.146)."

  5. #5
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    4 members found this post helpful.
    Rome: I think he's reaching a bit here, and I'm rather disappointed that they took ALL the Roman Imperial samples as a group for analysis. I hope there's a more nuanced analysis in the supplement.

    "This suggests that the Roman Empire in both its shorter-lived western part and the longer-lasting eastern centered on Anatolia had a diverse but similar population plausibly drawn, to a substantial extent, from Anatolian pre-Imperial sources. In an irony of history, although the Roman Republic prevailed in its existential military struggle against the Anatolians rallied by Mithridates VI of Pontus during the first century BCE, the final incorporation of Anatolia into the Roman Empire and the increased connectivity that ensued may have set the stage for the very same Anatolians to become the demographic engine of Imperial Rome itself. This recreated, in historical time, the mythical journey of Aeneas and his Trojan exiles from Anatolia to the shores of Italy."

    "
    Hierarchical clustering of raw ancestry estimates of diverse individuals shows overlapping distributions of Imperial Roman and Anatolian Roman-Byzantine individuals (black) without knowledge of their ancestry labels and differentiated from the distributions of Southeastern Europe, Armenia, and the Levant."



  6. #6
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    "The Southern Arc was also a recipient of many immigrants from outside the region in the Historical period, such as two individuals sampled in Samsun in the Black Sea region from the Roman era in the second to third centuries CE (17). These individuals have both Eastern European hunter-gatherer and some East Eurasian ancestry that contrasts them with the local population of the Black Sea region that had been stable since the Chalcolithic (30), across the Early Bronze Age transition at Amasya, and down to the time of the Kingdom of Pontus (first century BCE). Broad genetic stability in Anatolia during the Roman-Byzantine period did not mean isolation, as outliers of likely Levantine, Northern European or Germanic, and Iberian origin are detected in the Marmara region (in the Basilica of Nicaea or present-day Iznik and the Virgin Mary Monastery at Zeytinliada, Erdek) close to the Imperial capital of Constantinople (present-day Istanbul), which may have attracted a more diverse set of foreigners. Other outliers are found at the periphery of the Southern Arc in the Iron Age, in Moldova and Romania, long after the early steppe migrants previously discussed. These are distinctive because of the East Eurasian admixture of Central Asian Scythian individuals (3133)."

  7. #7
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    East Eurasian arrival:
    "East Eurasian ancestry also helps identify a noteworthy set of outliers at Çapalıbağ in the Aegean coast of Turkey dating from the 14th to 17th centuries (Fig. 4) (17). These have ~18% such ancestry, unlike Byzantine-era individuals from Turkey (Fig. 4B), which suggests a Central Asian influence. An admixture date estimate of 12.2 ± 1.4 generations before their time using Roman-Byzantine and Central Asian sources (Fig. 4C) suggests that the admixture occurred in the period surrounding the 11th century arrival and expansion of Seljuq Turks to Anatolia."



  8. #8
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Slavic arrival: Does this mean that as of 1100 AD the Albanians still weren't affected by Slavic admixture, and were still highly Anatolian Neolithic like? I'm sure our Albanian posters will let us know.

    "The reduction of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry was a long-term process in Southeastern Europe (1), which allows us to differentiate present-day populations from those preceding the Slavic migrations. When we order individuals along this component of ancestry (Fig. 5), we observe that present-day Slavs outside the Balkans have the least, whereas pre-Slavic inhabitants from the Balkans have the most of this type of ancestry, with present-day people from Southeastern Europe intermediate between the two extremes. Three individuals from Bulgaria (Samovodene), North Macedonia (Bitola), and an outlier individual from Trogir in Croatia (700 to 1100 CE) have the lowest levels of this ancestry. Most individuals from Trogir (a port city of the Adriatic in Croatia that was founded by Ancient Greek colonists and was part of the Byzantine Empire) overlapped with present-day people from ~700 to 900 CE, as did 12th century CE individuals from Veliko Tarnovo and Ryahovets in Bulgaria and a mid–fourth century CE Roman-era individual from Marathon in Greece, who, however, lacked the Balkan hunter-gatherer ancestry found consistently in the present-day population (Fig. 1). Finally, three medieval individuals from Albania (500 to 1100 CE) and a Late Antique (~500 CE) individual from Boyanovo in Bulgaria preceding the Slavic migrations, overlapped with the more ancient population, having high levels of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. Among present-day people, Greeks and Albanians have more Anatolian Neolithic ancestry than their South Slavic neighbors. "


  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,262


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Slavic arrival: Does this mean that as of 1100 AD the Albanians still weren't affected by Slavic admixture, and were still highly Anatolian Neolithic like? I'm sure our Albanian posters will let us know.

    "The reduction of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry was a long-term process in Southeastern Europe (1), which allows us to differentiate present-day populations from those preceding the Slavic migrations. When we order individuals along this component of ancestry (Fig. 5), we observe that present-day Slavs outside the Balkans have the least, whereas pre-Slavic inhabitants from the Balkans have the most of this type of ancestry, with present-day people from Southeastern Europe intermediate between the two extremes. Three individuals from Bulgaria (Samovodene), North Macedonia (Bitola), and an outlier individual from Trogir in Croatia (700 to 1100 CE) have the lowest levels of this ancestry. Most individuals from Trogir (a port city of the Adriatic in Croatia that was founded by Ancient Greek colonists and was part of the Byzantine Empire) overlapped with present-day people from ~700 to 900 CE, as did 12th century CE individuals from Veliko Tarnovo and Ryahovets in Bulgaria and a mid–fourth century CE Roman-era individual from Marathon in Greece, who, however, lacked the Balkan hunter-gatherer ancestry found consistently in the present-day population (Fig. 1). Finally, three medieval individuals from Albania (500 to 1100 CE) and a Late Antique (~500 CE) individual from Boyanovo in Bulgaria preceding the Slavic migrations, overlapped with the more ancient population, having high levels of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. Among present-day people, Greeks and Albanians have more Anatolian Neolithic ancestry than their South Slavic neighbors. "

    I have said it before.

  10. #10
    researcher eupator's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-07-22
    Posts
    284

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-A12332*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6*

    Country: Greece



    Plenty R-A12332 and R-19434 in Urartian samples.

  11. #11
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Rome: I think he's reaching a bit here, and I'm rather disappointed that they took ALL the Roman Imperial samples as a group for analysis. I hope there's a more nuanced analysis in the supplement.

    "This suggests that the Roman Empire in both its shorter-lived western part and the longer-lasting eastern centered on Anatolia had a diverse but similar population plausibly drawn, to a substantial extent, from Anatolian pre-Imperial sources. In an irony of history, although the Roman Republic prevailed in its existential military struggle against the Anatolians rallied by Mithridates VI of Pontus during the first century BCE, the final incorporation of Anatolia into the Roman Empire and the increased connectivity that ensued may have set the stage for the very same Anatolians to become the demographic engine of Imperial Rome itself. This recreated, in historical time, the mythical journey of Aeneas and his Trojan exiles from Anatolia to the shores of Italy."

    "
    Hierarchical clustering of raw ancestry estimates of diverse individuals shows overlapping distributions of Imperial Roman and Anatolian Roman-Byzantine individuals (black) without knowledge of their ancestry labels and differentiated from the distributions of Southeastern Europe, Armenia, and the Levant."
    Great work by Lazaridis and Reich, and their team, but if geneticists want to be taken seriously by all classicists, archaeologists and linguists, they should avoid such sentences.

  12. #12
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Great work by Lazaridis and Reich, and their team, but if geneticists want to be taken seriously by all classicists, archaeologists and linguists, they should avoid such sentences.
    He admits it's a myth, but it should indeed by avoided, because there are some extremely literal minded almost autistic people in this "hobby".

  13. #13
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    He admits it's a myth, but it should indeed by avoided, because there are some extremely literal minded almost autistic people in this "hobby".
    Yes, what he means in general is clear, you can see that he works hard, and he remains one of the geneticists who manage to be most clear, he is certainly not expounding his own theory on that myth. But it was better to avoid that whole paragraph. He is neither an archaeologist, nor a classicist, nor a historian. Such considerations should be left to those who deal with them for work reasons. :)

  14. #14
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,128

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Can someone send a pdf link for this?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  15. #15
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Can someone send a pdf link for this?


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

    You must thank eupator

    https://we.tl/t-w2KerbTN9U

  16. #16
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-10-16
    Location
    Tirana
    Age
    46
    Posts
    1,128

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-Z2103>BY611
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H7i1

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    You must thank eupator

    https://we.tl/t-w2KerbTN9U
    Absolutely


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

  17. #17
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-06-21
    Posts
    9

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152

    Country: Italy



    2 members found this post helpful.

    This is what I call Intellectual integrity

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Rome: I think he's reaching a bit here, and I'm rather disappointed that they took ALL the Roman Imperial samples as a group for analysis. I hope there's a more nuanced analysis in the supplement.

    "This suggests that the Roman Empire in both its shorter-lived western part and the longer-lasting eastern centered on Anatolia had a diverse but similar population plausibly drawn, to a substantial extent, from Anatolian pre-Imperial sources. In an irony of history, although the Roman Republic prevailed in its existential military struggle against the Anatolians rallied by Mithridates VI of Pontus during the first century BCE, the final incorporation of Anatolia into the Roman Empire and the increased connectivity that ensued may have set the stage for the very same Anatolians to become the demographic engine of Imperial Rome itself. This recreated, in historical time, the mythical journey of Aeneas and his Trojan exiles from Anatolia to the shores of Italy."

    "
    Hierarchical clustering of raw ancestry estimates of diverse individuals shows overlapping distributions of Imperial Roman and Anatolian Roman-Byzantine individuals (black) without knowledge of their ancestry labels and differentiated from the distributions of Southeastern Europe, Armenia, and the Levant."


    Good to know that academics are still using samples from a necropolis known to have housed slave site burials as representative of the Imperial Roman population! Let's continue on with the theory that the region with the largest population within the empire since the start had undergone multiple mass population shifts (and damn near replacements) within the span of a few centuries, and obviously since YDNA distribution and autosomal DNA distribution does not back up such uniform shifts (but rather regional shifts correlating with historic events), we must hold on to these useless unrepresentative samples as long as possible and treat them like the holy grail!

  18. #18
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidrooted View Post
    Good to know that academics are still using samples from a necropolis known to have housed slave site burials as representative of the Imperial Roman population! Let's continue on with the theory that the region with the largest population within the empire since the start had undergone multiple mass population shifts (and damn near replacements) within the span of a few centuries, and obviously since YDNA distribution and autosomal DNA distribution does not back up such uniform shifts (but rather regional shifts correlating with historic events), we must hold on to these useless unrepresentative samples as long as possible and treat them like the holy grail!
    I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what he's saying there. It seems to me he's talking more about the economic and social impact, although again that sentence is a little florid for my taste.

    I'm carefully reading the supplementary materials, since that's usually where you find the real meat of the papers.

  19. #19
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Non-West Eurasian ancestry in the Southern Arc

    As to the Natufians:
    "The African-maximized “black” component isfound in Levantine individuals as early as the Natufians and should thus not be interpreted asevidence of recent African influence in West Eurasia. A likely explanation is the partialderivation of the Natufians from Paleolithic Iberomaurusian (48) North African-related ancestorsas suggested in (49) Indeed, the average proportion of this component in all Natufian individuals(including those for which it is less than the detection threshold of 10%) is 9.1%, while inTaforalt from Morocco it is 41.4%, thus suggesting ~22% of North African influence, similar tothe ~27% inferred using an admixture graph framework in (49)"

  20. #20
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what he's saying there. It seems to me he's talking more about the economic and social impact, although again that sentence is a little florid for my taste.

    I'm carefully reading the supplementary materials, since that's usually where you find the real meat of the papers.
    I suppose that's indeed what he's saying there. From the Supplementary Materials for A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia, p. 12.

    To the west of Greece, 1 sample from Italy, a Punic sample from Sardinia (MSR002) is identified as Mycenaean-like.(53) We note that the samples from Italy do not include Sicily and Southern Italy at the time or postdating Greek colonization, but they do include a large set of samples from Imperial Rome which we infer to be mostly of Anatolian rather than Aegean or southeastern European origin.

    This is more or less what Reich had also said about Anatolia_BA being the source for Imperial Rome

    "The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself. "

    https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture


    From the Science article. There are no samples from Italy in these three studies. So what exactly are we talking about?

    "The papers also acknowledge the nuances of identity in later periods, for example in Imperial Rome. Previous genetic studies had shown that as the empire coalesced, the ancestry of people in and around the city of Rome shifted, with most having roots not in Europe, but farther east.

    After obtaining dozens of additional Roman-era genomes from the region, the team zeroed in on the source of those newcomers: Anatolia. But the researchers agree that people with “Anatolian” DNA moving to the Italian peninsula likely saw themselves as citizens or slaves of Rome, rather than as part of a distinct “Anatolian” ethnic group. Contemporary chroniclers remarked on the new faces in Rome—and referred to many of them as “Greeks,” perhaps because the eastern peoples had spoken Greek for centuries, Lazaridis says."


    https://www.science.org/content/arti...arly-languages


    First criticism from archaeologists

    "Some archaeologists still think the papers claim too much influence for ancestry. “DNA cannot tell us anything about how people shape their life worlds, what their social status was,” says archaeologist Joseph Maran of Heidelberg University. He says terms like “Yamnaya ancestry” suggest the Yamnaya spread by moving directly from place to place, rather than through a complex mingling of their descendants with local populations over centuries or more. “Equating history with ‘mobility’ and ‘migrations’ is … old-fashioned.”
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 26-08-22 at 02:22.

  21. #21
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-06-21
    Posts
    9

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152

    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what he's saying there. It seems to me he's talking more about the economic and social impact, although again that sentence is a little florid for my taste.

    I'm carefully reading the supplementary materials, since that's usually where you find the real meat of the papers.
    If you go to twitter, in his recent replies he makes it remarkably clear that he is primarily referring to genetic impact.

  22. #22
    Moderator Pax Augusta's Avatar
    Join Date
    23-06-14
    Location
    Ara Pacis
    Posts
    1,808


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidrooted View Post
    If you go to twitter, in his recent replies he makes it remarkably clear that he is primarily referring to genetic impact.
    It is no more than what Lazaridis' boss, David Reich, said weeks ago. If this is what Reich thinks, it is clearly the thesis that all his collaborators, including Lazaridis, support. Willy-nilly. This is clearly a simplification, because not all imperial age samples from Rome have a genetic profile similar to Anatolia_BA/IA. But geneticists are very fond of simplifications.


    "The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself."


    https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture

  23. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-06-21
    Posts
    9

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152

    Country: Italy



    [QUOTE=Pax Augusta;655393]It is no more than what Lazaridis' boss, David Reich, said weeks ago. If this is what Reich thinks, it is clearly the thesis that all his collaborators, including Lazaridis, support. Willy-nilly. This is clearly a simplification, because not all imperial age samples from Rome have a genetic profile similar to Anatolia_BA/IA. But geneticists are very fond of simplifications.


    "The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself."



    It is truly fascinating that what are meant to be the best of the best, top tier academics in the population genetics field, can base their already illogical theories on such weak foundations. But this is what must be done when those funding these studies have narratives to push! I am confronting Lazaridis on twitter right now, and he essentially just replied using the logic I'd expect a 4channer (or 4th grader) to use. I will tell anyone interested to check our little back and forth going on right now on there.

  24. #24
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    I suppose that's indeed what he's saying there. From the Supplementary Materials for A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and West Asia, p. 12.




    This is more or less what Reich had also said about Anatolia_BA being the source for Imperial Rome

    "The demographic significance of Anatolia on a Mediterranean-wide scale is further documented by our finding that following the Roman conquest, the Anatolian population remained stable and became the geographic source for much of the ancestry of Imperial Rome itself. "

    https://iias.huji.ac.il/event/david-reich-lecture


    From the Science article. There are no samples from Italy in these three studies. So what exactly are we talking about?

    "The papers also acknowledge the nuances of identity in later periods, for example in Imperial Rome. Previous genetic studies had shown that as the empire coalesced, the ancestry of people in and around the city of Rome shifted, with most having roots not in Europe, but farther east.

    After obtaining dozens of additional Roman-era genomes from the region, the team zeroed in on the source of those newcomers: Anatolia. But the researchers agree that people with “Anatolian” DNA moving to the Italian peninsula likely saw themselves as citizens or slaves of Rome, rather than as part of a distinct “Anatolian” ethnic group. Contemporary chroniclers remarked on the new faces in Rome—and referred to many of them as “Greeks,” perhaps because the eastern peoples had spoken Greek for centuries, Lazaridis says."


    https://www.science.org/content/arti...arly-languages


    First criticism from archaeologists

    "Some archaeologists still think the papers claim too much influence for ancestry. “DNA cannot tell us anything about how people shape their life worlds, what their social status was,” says archaeologist Joseph Maran of Heidelberg University. He says terms like “Yamnaya ancestry” suggest the Yamnaya spread by moving directly from place to place, rather than through a complex mingling of their descendants with local populations over centuries or more. “Equating history with ‘mobility’ and ‘migrations’ is … old-fashioned.”
    The bolded section is just the few dinosaurs left who don't want to believe in "invasions" or even quick, mass migrations. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.

    As I already posted, I do not understand, however, how the authors can claim that the migration to Rome was from Anatolians, not any Aegeans, when we don't seem to have very many Iron Age genomes from either place.

  25. #25
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    21,540


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Mycenaean ancestry

    "In Table S 1 we list the individuals that are indistinguishable from Mycenaeans according toour procedure in all three tests. This does indeed identify two individuals from Empúries (I8215and I8208) as highly similar to the Mycenaean population. The strong similarity of these twoClassical and Hellenistic individuals (4th-3rd century BCE) to the Mycenaeans of a 1,000 yearsearlier has interesting implications beyond their local Iberian setting and underscores theimportance of “Big Picture” studies to produce a framework through which the analysis of localpopulations can be better interpreted:The western Mediterranean Greek colonists in this site in Spain were derived from 6th c.BCE Massaliotes (Ancient Μασσαλία, modern Marseilles in France) who themselves werederived from Phocaeans (Ancient Φώκαια, modern Foça in Turkey) who themselves werecolonists from Phokis (Φωκίς) in mainland Greece with Ionian kings who traced descent fromCodrus (and thus from Attica).1 Whatever the origin of the specific individuals unearthed atEmpúries, their genetic similarity to the Mycenaean population suggests that no major admixturehad occurred in their ancestry from the Bronze Age to their own time, e.g., in either Asia Minor(during the founding of Phocaea) or western Europe, which would have introduced ancestrymore prevalent in either region (e.g., CHG or WHG) compared to mainland Greece."

    "Another sample which resembles Mycenaeans genetically is ASH068 an Iron Age“Philistine” from the Levant, also identified as resembling the Late Bronze Age population ofsouthern Greece in the original publication.(21)Two other samples from the literature were identified:SZ19 is a Langobard-era sample from Szólád, Hungary from the 5th-6th c. CE. SZ19 was ayoung female of 17-25 years old who was also a genetic outlier in the group of individualsburied there, had a distinct burial type, and also had a “stylistically distinct (possiblyRoman)”(52) artifact associated with her burial. Quite possibly she was related to the populationof the Aegean and the southern Balkans given the similarity to Mycenaeans detected here.I20257 is an ancient adolescent female from Değirmendere in Muğla from the Aegeanregion of Turkey (750-480 BCE). Her similarity to the Mycenaean population is not surprisinggiven the proximity to Greece and her time postdating the colonization of the coast of Anatolia.Two other samples from the same site are more distant (I20229 and I20233). Thus only 3 of 10samples from this site are similar to Mycenaeans. We cannot speak of a general similarity here,but rather that the “Carian” population at Değirmendere included Mycenaean-like individualswhile being generally distinct. Thus, the previously plausible theory that culturally Greek peoplein the classical period and earlier did not mix with locals—suggested by the patterns atEmpúries—is not supported by the data."

    I don't know how they can say the following unless they have Iron Age Aegean samples which they can't yet discuss.

    "To the west of Greece, 1 sample from Italy, a Punic sample from Sardinia (MSR002) isidentified as Mycenaean-like.(53) We note that the samples from Italy do not include Sicily andSouthern Italy at the time or postdating Greek colonization, but they do include a large set ofsamples from Imperial Rome which we infer to be mostly of Anatolian rather than Aegean orsoutheastern European origin."

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •