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Thread: A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francesco View Post
    I don't think Lazaridis is implying that Italians descend from that slave population, nor that there wasn't a local resurgence after the collapse of the Roman civilization: he's just saying that the majority of the people who are labeled as Imperial romans (who were for the most part slaves) are from anatolian descent. Wich is, at least, more plausible than the theory of them being the descendants of a mixed italic-levantine population.
    I agree. He makes a particular point that slaves would not leave many descendants behind.

    I still, however, have questions which I'll take this opportunity to address to all our members.

    This is the pertinent excerpt from the paper:

    "Unexpectedly, the ancestry of the sample of people whose genomes were analyzed who lived around Rome in the Imperial period was almost identical to that of Roman and Byzantine individuals from Anatolia in both their mean (Fig. 3A) and pattern of variation (Fig. 3B)".

    I read that as meaning they compared the Antonio et al Imperial Roman samples to Imperial Era (and Byzantine Era) Anatolians.

    Using the term "lived" around Rome in the Imperial period is questionable, imo. We're talking about samples not just in Rome itself but also in Ostia, a port city where transitory seamen and merchants would "live", but only for limited periods of time.

    Also, did they include literally ALL of the samples, including the ones which were quite "Northern" autosomally, and the ones who were quite "Levantine" autosomally, i.e. the "tail into the Levant"? If that's the case, are they saying that the people of Anatolia in the Roman and Byzantine Era included people who were quite Levantine autosomally? Or is it only in the Byzantine Era that this was the case? Might it not have been better to separate the two sets of Anatolian samples they were using?

    However, there is also this:

    "We clustered diverse Roman, Byzantine, and medieval individuals and their immediate predecessors without any knowledge of their population labels and found that the Italian and Anatolian individuals clustered together with those of pre-Roman Anatolia,"

    So, which is it? Is it Roman Anatolian samples or Pre-Roman Anatolian samples? If it is Pre-Roman Anatolian samples, does he mean Bronze Age or Iron Age?

    I have to go through the figures both in the paper and in the supplement carefully to see if there's information about the precise samples used. If someone has already done it, could you let us know?

    To my knowledge we don't have Iron Age samples from Anatolia.

    Also, would Aegean Bronze (or Iron) Age samples also be part of that cluster? In that case, they would also be part of this "engine" for the Imperial period, yet it doesn't seem they were thrown into the pot.

    How different are the Aegean Bronze Age samples from the Anatolian Bronze Age samples?

    What about the Sicilian Bronze Age samples? Would they also fit into that cluster?

    Or, how about actual Roman Era Greek samples? Would they fit into that cluster? We do have the Marathon sample. Does he fit into the cluster? How about the two Empuries samples? Do they fit into the cluster? If they do, then wouldn't that imply that the input into Imperial Rome could also be because of Greek colonization, not just movement from Anatolia?

    Indeed, in terms of Anatolia, there were, as we all know, numerous Greek settlements there, inhabited by people who were, I agree, probably a mixture of Greek and western Anatolian. Were the samples used to compare to Imperial Roman samples from this group of people?


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    The map shows samples from Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia. One for each of those regions. And they are no where to be found in the paper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    There are I think 24 new Mycenean samples in this paper. The admixture models are presented in Supplement 1 for the Myceneans (page 238). 5 Source populations Tur_Marmara_Barcin_Neolithic 53.7% plus/minus 4% + CHG 21% plus/minus 2.2% +Levant PPN 19.5% plus/minus 4.1% + EHG 4.9% plus/minus 0.9% + SRB_Iron Gates HG 0.8% plus/minus 0.5%

    So if you take the 4 Myceneans from the Lazaridis et al 2017 paper, there are now 28 samples.

    The borrow from the American 1950's American group the Everly Brothers, to Dream, Dream, Dream, that the Myceneans were heavy Steppe, and more particularly, Corded Ware types with predominate EHG is no longer even plausible given we have 28 samples. I alluded, citing the Raveane 2019 paper on Italians that the Southern Flank of the Yamnaya-cultural expansion may have been tilted more CHG relative to EHG in a post earlier this week in the modern Greek and Italians thread (I think it was) or the Southern Arc thread before the paper came out. Yes, there is additional CHG/Iran NEO inflow to Sicily and Southern Italy and Central as well (Antonio et al 2019 Roman paper) but in the Raveane et al 2019 paper (Figure 2) puts about 25-28% combined CHG+EHG+Iran_NEO ancestry in Sicily and Southern Italy. So taking out the additional CHG+Iran_NEO ancestry, a population titled more with CHG+Iran_NEO relative to EHG seems to possibly be related to the spread of IE in Sicily and Southern Italy as well.

    In the new paper, Lazaradis point out that the Yamnaya early samples, from Jones et al 2015 I think, were close to 50/50 EHG/CHG. The Bell Beakers were close to this and the Corded Ware harbored about 3.1% more EHG. In the Raveane et al 2019 paper, they suggested Bell Beaker types brought in IE to Northern Italy. The Fernandes et al 2020 paper used Yamnaya to maximize the Steppe into Sicily. But, Bell Beakers, likely from Spain, were also present in Sicily so early Steppe in Sicily could also be related to Bell Beakers/culture migration into Sicily as well.

    So the Bell Beakers were close to 50/50 CHG/EHG, the Corded Ware more tilted with EHG so 53/47, but in SE Europe, the Steppe migration consisted of people with > CHG ancestry relative to EHG


    From the paper (page 378)

    "This is not the case for SoutheasternEurope, where Bronze Age individuals hadan excess of Caucasus over Eastern huntergatherer ancestry not only in the Aegean (~17%in both Minoans and Mycenaeans)"
    Bell Beakers were, to the best of my recollection, about half local European farmer and half steppe, which half steppe was 50/50 EHG and CHG. So, we'd be saying 50% European Chl, which was really about 75% Anatolian farmer, plus 25% local HG, and then the 50% from the steppe would be 50/50 EHG and CHG.

    Corded Ware may have been more varied, but the point is that both groups were "not" pure steppe but had admixed with the farmers of Europe. That's where they picked up their de-pigmentation snps, snps which Corded Ware like migrations then brought back out onto the eastern steppe.

    Completely agree that Mycenaeans from Corded Ware is and was always ridiculous.

    There was a direct line from Yamnaya to Greece, which I asserted more than once. That is why, imo, culturally, at least, there is so much Yamnaya in the Mycenaean culture, even though the Yamnaya genetic input is so minor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    The map shows samples from Epirus, Thessaly and Macedonia. One for each of those regions. And they are no where to be found in the paper.
    Do you mean the map I posted at the beginning of the thread?

    ER posted the whole list of samples. Did you go through them? They're not going to be called Epirus necessarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    R1b-Z2103 in Mycenaeans, so it's settled Greek and Armenian are from Yamnaya, not Corded ware derived, even though steppe ancestry is really low. This proves that Yamnaya was at least LPIE (Late Proto-Indoeuropean). What about Albanian?
    R1bZ2103 is also found in small amounts in Corded Ware (still waiting for study with IBD comparing Czech CordedWare with Yamnaya)and Bell Beakers. R1bz2103 is also found in Albania/Serbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    R1b-Z2103 in Mycenaeans, so it's settled Greek and Armenian are from Yamnaya, not Corded ware derived, even though steppe ancestry is really low. This proves that Yamnaya was at least LPIE (Late Proto-Indoeuropean). What about Albanian?
    ''Together with
    the extraordinary heterogeneity in autosomal
    ancestry in the Balkans, a picture emerges
    of a fragmented genetic landscape that may
    well parallel the poorly understood linguistic
    diversity in the ancient Balkans, which among
    Indo-European languages includes Paleo-Balkan
    speakers before the spread of Latin and Slavic,
    with Albanian as the only surviving representative.
    Did the early Indo-European language
    become successful in Southeastern Europe because
    it functioned as a “lingua franca,” facilitating
    communication among speakers of
    the diverse languages of previous farmer and
    hunter-gatherer populations?''

    from the paper (page 10). Not sure what it means that extremely long sentence....

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    @Angela,
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    Many thanks four your replies, they really helped me. We have now 28 Mycenaean samples in total, great.
    “If anyone can refute me—show me I’m making a mistake or looking at things from the wrong perspective—I’ll gladly change. It’s the truth I’m after, and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance.” – Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book VI, 21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    R1b-Z2103 in Mycenaeans, so it's settled Greek and Armenian are from Yamnaya, not Corded ware derived, even though steppe ancestry is really low. This proves that Yamnaya was at least LPIE (Late Proto-Indoeuropean). What about Albanian?
    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...94185769754627

    "And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Bell Beakers were, to the best of my recollection, about half local European farmer and half steppe, which half steppe was 50/50 EHG and CHG. So, we'd be saying 50% European Chl, which was really about 75% Anatolian farmer, plus 25% local HG, and then the 50% from the steppe would be 50/50 EHG and CHG.

    Corded Ware may have been more varied, but the point is that both groups were "not" pure steppe but had admixed with the farmers of Europe. That's where they picked up their de-pigmentation snps, snps which Corded Ware like migrations then brought back out onto the eastern steppe.

    Completely agree that Mycenaeans from Corded Ware is and was always ridiculous.

    There was a direct line from Yamnaya to Greece, which I asserted more than once. That is why, imo, culturally, at least, there is so much Yamnaya in the Mycenaean culture, even though the Yamnaya genetic input is so minor.
    Angela: Thanks for the input. With the Bell Beakers, there are way more Beaker samples than Yamnaya or even Corded ware that have been published. So the Bell Beaker samples may all have picked up IE from Yamanaya and/or Corded Ware, but the admixture in the Bell Beakers that came into Italy from the North could be different in terms of the baseline admixture of close to 50/50 EHG+CHG that Lazaradis et al 2022 state. So maybe the original Corded Ware in the North were the 50/50 ratio but as they moved West into Central and SW Europe, the Bell Beaker culture was brought into Italy but the admixture was < EHG.

    Back to the Raveane et al 2019 paper (Figure 2), No Northern Italian region gets more than about 28% EHG so I think your analysis regarding the Bell Beakers that came into Italy from Central Europe were < 50% EHG, probably significantly less is supported by prior literature on Modern Italians. In addition, none of those Republican Roman samples that clustered with modern Central/Northern Italians had that much, the 8 of 11 that were close to Central (Tuscany)/Northern Italian samples had 24 to 38% Steppe, and again some of that Steppe ancestry is going to related to CHG and not exclusively to EHG.

    So thanks the comment, made me better review prior studies and provide clearer post relative to the prior studies.

    And yes, the Gustaive Kossina Nordicist Corded Ware/EHG fantasy regarding ancient Greece, Rome as well, finito/basta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...94185769754627

    "And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"
    So by Corded Ware Intermediaries, I assume he means Bell Beaker folks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    We have now 28 Mycenaean samples in total, great.
    Ancestry proportions from the paper for the new Greek samples


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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    https://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...94185769754627
    "And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"
    . R1a European branch aka, European Horseless Ware.And R1b Steppe (L51 and Z2103)PIE- aka Cordless Ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Originally Posted by Excinehttps://twitter.com/iosif_lazaridis/...94185769754627
    "And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"



    R1a European branch aka, European Horseless Ware.And R1b Steppe (L51 and Z2103)PIE- aka Cordless Ware.
    I think the wheels of chariots wiped out the languages of CWC and BB (CWC Bohemia line?) 1,600bc and planted new culture.



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    I see that a lot of the Mycenaean samples are low coverage.

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    So has the question of did the Greeks arrive in Greece through Anatolia or the Balkans been settled yet? With the very low steppe admix it would seem that the Greeks were either displaced by the steppe invaders in the Balkans or came through Anatolia and whatever steppe admix they picked up was from the Caucasus or from the Thracians.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Er Monnezza View Post
    There are more than 20 brand-new Mycenaeans.

    Below you can view their distances to other samples already published and/or from the same study.
    Please write which calculator you are using. Distances may vary from calculator to calculator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    "And 99% of Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware ancestors. It is only three small groups: Greeks, Armenians, Albanians who go up to the Yamnaya not via Corded Ware intermediaries. Many others were wiped out linguistically, e.g. Tocharians and most Paleo-Balkan speakers"
    Greeks and Albanians tightly knit since forever it seems.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    3 different Topics in post

    1) Angela: Further supporting your post regarding the Bell Beaker, and Me totally misreading what they wrote, Lazaridis et al 2022 stated. Lazararidis et al 2022 stated that the Yamanaya had close to equal amounts of EHG and CHG, so the difference between the 2 is zero. This was the same for Bell Beaker, but as you say, the Bell Beakers, who were highly heterogeneous in ancestry (Olade et al 2018) who are 50% EEF + 25% CHG + 25% EHG would by have zero difference between CHG-EHG ancestry. The earliest Corded Ware they used had excess 3.1% EHG.

    So again, good catch on your part.

    2): Second part of post

    My first run with the new Myceneans that G25 coordinates are available. 4 of the samples here are the older ones from Lazaridis et al 2017 (I9006, I9010, I9003, I9041). So my view, considering the Mycenean period was circa 3700 BC to 3000BC, not bad distances.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.04320750 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    0.04430272 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    0.04445643 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
    0.04572758 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.04661753 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    0.04910292 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.05721194 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.05779630 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    0.06400415 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
    0.06451359 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.06520896 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364

    3) Third part of post: Closest modern Populations to all the Myceneans used in post 2. My quick take, nothing different from what Lazaridis et al 2017 concluded. Both modern Greeks and Italians the least differentiated populations from the Myceneans.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    0.04756353 Italian_Apulia
    0.04792561 Italian_Campania
    0.04867983 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04909609 Italian_Lazio
    0.04994336 Italian_Calabria
    0.05030570 Sicilian_East
    0.05151801 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05227499 Italian_Molise
    0.05515537 Maltese
    0.05564940 Italian_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
    0.06925985 Sicilian_East
    0.06996193 Italian_Apulia
    0.07041206 Italian_Calabria
    0.07063179 Italian_Campania
    0.07202172 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07344003 Italian_Lazio
    0.07408055 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.07408434 Italian_Molise
    0.07602664 Italian_Marche
    0.07606253 French_Corsica

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    0.05057728 Italian_Campania
    0.05143468 Italian_Apulia
    0.05172611 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05190442 Italian_Calabria
    0.05426717 Sicilian_East
    0.05499287 Italian_Lazio
    0.05501079 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05592874 Italian_Molise
    0.05614866 Greek_Kos
    0.05680969 Greek_Izmir

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
    0.03654511 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.04110671 Italian_Calabria
    0.04146339 Greek_Kos
    0.04271708 Greek_Crete
    0.04305058 Italian_Campania
    0.04383122 Italian_Apulia
    0.04439810 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04479746 Sicilian_East
    0.04774507 Sephardic_Jew
    0.04818263 Italian_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    0.06038835 Sicilian_East
    0.06315087 Italian_Apulia
    0.06387361 Italian_Calabria
    0.06432941 Italian_Campania
    0.06526757 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06638223 Sicilian_West
    0.06710860 Italian_Jew
    0.06722735 Maltese
    0.06790154 Italian_Lazio
    0.06802407 Sephardic_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    0.05042202 Greek_Laconia
    0.05079290 Italian_Lazio
    0.05109544 Italian_Apulia
    0.05164367 Italian_Umbria
    0.05174011 Greek_Izmir
    0.05178863 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05197029 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05330474 Italian_Molise
    0.05341634 Italian_Campania
    0.05343560 Greek_Peloponnese

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
    0.06639951 Italian_Apulia
    0.06923756 Italian_Campania
    0.06970982 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07021450 Sicilian_East
    0.07026066 Italian_Lazio
    0.07056706 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.07077300 Italian_Molise
    0.07205599 Italian_Calabria
    0.07223325 Greek_Izmir
    0.07246214 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.04874822 Italian_Calabria
    0.04900044 Italian_Campania
    0.05010230 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05109016 Italian_Apulia
    0.05207824 Greek_Kos
    0.05363381 Sicilian_East
    0.05401100 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05459550 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05492416 Italian_Molise
    0.05519596 Italian_Lazio

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.04473500 Italian_Calabria
    0.04595238 Sicilian_East
    0.04814068 Italian_Apulia
    0.04896344 Italian_Campania
    0.04930462 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05112824 Sicilian_West
    0.05179310 Maltese
    0.05202210 Italian_Molise
    0.05207647 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05595204 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.07051792 Italian_Jew
    0.07065491 Italian_Calabria
    0.07116767 Greek_Kos
    0.07129528 Italian_Campania
    0.07258124 Romaniote_Jew
    0.07280276 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.07320377 Sicilian_East
    0.07383856 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.07396523 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07415641 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.05959369 Greek_Kos
    0.06007139 Italian_Calabria
    0.06084883 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.06167989 Italian_Campania
    0.06315615 Italian_Apulia
    0.06340946 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06527905 Greek_Crete
    0.06593021 Greek_Izmir
    0.06658523 Sicilian_East
    0.06677538 Italian_Abruzzo

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    What do you think was the haplogroup of the Griffin Warrior?

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    @Angela,
    @Palermo Trapani


    Many thanks four your replies, they really helped me. We have now 28 Mycenaean samples in total, great.
    Your welcome. I went back and checked, I am having trouble seeing. There are 25 Myceneans in the new paper (See Figure 4) + 4 from the 2017 paper so 29 total. Some according to what I have seen may be low coverage so maybe the amateur calculators might not be able to run coordinates for all of them.

    My apologies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    3 different Topics in post

    1) Angela: Further supporting your post regarding the Bell Beaker, and Me totally misreading what they wrote, Lazaridis et al 2022 stated. Lazararidis et al 2022 stated that the Yamanaya had close to equal amounts of EHG and CHG, so the difference between the 2 is zero. This was the same for Bell Beaker, but as you say, the Bell Beakers, who were highly heterogeneous in ancestry (Olade et al 2018) who are 50% EEF + 25% CHG + 25% EHG would by have zero difference between CHG-EHG ancestry. The earliest Corded Ware they used had excess 3.1% EHG.

    So again, good catch on your part.

    2): Second part of post

    My first run with the new Myceneans that G25 coordinates are available. 4 of the samples here are the older ones from Lazaridis et al 2017 (I9006, I9010, I9003, I9041). So my view, considering the Mycenean period was circa 3700 BC to 3000BC, not bad distances.

    Distance to: PT_G25_Ancestry_simulated_g25_scaled
    0.04320750 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    0.04430272 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    0.04445643 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
    0.04572758 GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.04661753 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    0.04910292 GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.05721194 GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.05779630 GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    0.06400415 GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
    0.06451359 GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.06520896 GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364

    3) Third part of post: Closest modern Populations to all the Myceneans used in post 2. My quick take, nothing different from what Lazaridis et al 2017 concluded. Both modern Greeks and Italians the least differentiated populations from the Myceneans.

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA_father.or.son.I1 3518:I13506_d
    0.04756353 Italian_Apulia
    0.04792561 Italian_Campania
    0.04867983 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04909609 Italian_Lazio
    0.04994336 Italian_Calabria
    0.05030570 Sicilian_East
    0.05151801 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05227499 Italian_Molise
    0.05515537 Maltese
    0.05564940 Italian_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I19364
    0.06925985 Sicilian_East
    0.06996193 Italian_Apulia
    0.07041206 Italian_Calabria
    0.07063179 Italian_Campania
    0.07202172 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07344003 Italian_Lazio
    0.07408055 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.07408434 Italian_Molise
    0.07602664 Italian_Marche
    0.07606253 French_Corsica

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
    0.05057728 Italian_Campania
    0.05143468 Italian_Apulia
    0.05172611 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05190442 Italian_Calabria
    0.05426717 Sicilian_East
    0.05499287 Italian_Lazio
    0.05501079 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05592874 Italian_Molise
    0.05614866 Greek_Kos
    0.05680969 Greek_Izmir

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
    0.03654511 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.04110671 Italian_Calabria
    0.04146339 Greek_Kos
    0.04271708 Greek_Crete
    0.04305058 Italian_Campania
    0.04383122 Italian_Apulia
    0.04439810 Italian_Basilicata
    0.04479746 Sicilian_East
    0.04774507 Sephardic_Jew
    0.04818263 Italian_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13579
    0.06038835 Sicilian_East
    0.06315087 Italian_Apulia
    0.06387361 Italian_Calabria
    0.06432941 Italian_Campania
    0.06526757 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06638223 Sicilian_West
    0.06710860 Italian_Jew
    0.06722735 Maltese
    0.06790154 Italian_Lazio
    0.06802407 Sephardic_Jew

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
    0.05042202 Greek_Laconia
    0.05079290 Italian_Lazio
    0.05109544 Italian_Apulia
    0.05164367 Italian_Umbria
    0.05174011 Greek_Izmir
    0.05178863 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05197029 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05330474 Italian_Molise
    0.05341634 Italian_Campania
    0.05343560 Greek_Peloponnese

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean_Attica_BA:I16709
    0.06639951 Italian_Apulia
    0.06923756 Italian_Campania
    0.06970982 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07021450 Sicilian_East
    0.07026066 Italian_Lazio
    0.07056706 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.07077300 Italian_Molise
    0.07205599 Italian_Calabria
    0.07223325 Greek_Izmir
    0.07246214 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
    0.04874822 Italian_Calabria
    0.04900044 Italian_Campania
    0.05010230 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05109016 Italian_Apulia
    0.05207824 Greek_Kos
    0.05363381 Sicilian_East
    0.05401100 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05459550 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05492416 Italian_Molise
    0.05519596 Italian_Lazio

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9033
    0.04473500 Italian_Calabria
    0.04595238 Sicilian_East
    0.04814068 Italian_Apulia
    0.04896344 Italian_Campania
    0.04930462 Italian_Basilicata
    0.05112824 Sicilian_West
    0.05179310 Maltese
    0.05202210 Italian_Molise
    0.05207647 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.05595204 Greek_Crete

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9010
    0.07051792 Italian_Jew
    0.07065491 Italian_Calabria
    0.07116767 Greek_Kos
    0.07129528 Italian_Campania
    0.07258124 Romaniote_Jew
    0.07280276 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.07320377 Sicilian_East
    0.07383856 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.07396523 Italian_Basilicata
    0.07415641 Italian_Apulia

    Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
    0.05959369 Greek_Kos
    0.06007139 Italian_Calabria
    0.06084883 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.06167989 Italian_Campania
    0.06315615 Italian_Apulia
    0.06340946 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06527905 Greek_Crete
    0.06593021 Greek_Izmir
    0.06658523 Sicilian_East
    0.06677538 Italian_Abruzzo
    I think a distance of 4 to a Bronze Age sample is pretty darn good. My husband will be very pleased. :)

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    So has the question of did the Greeks arrive in Greece through Anatolia or the Balkans been settled yet? With the very low steppe admix it would seem that the Greeks were either displaced by the steppe invaders in the Balkans or came through Anatolia and whatever steppe admix they picked up was from the Caucasus or from the Thracians.
    I have no idea what that means. The R1b carrying Greek speakers were the steppe "invaders" who came down through the Balkans, although they don't seem to have done much "invading" in the sense of establishing a genetic elite. Rather, it seems that they admixed with the locals in a rather egalitarian manner. The culture was a mix of the local culture and the Yamnaya culture.

    It makes sense given the fact that they didn't arrive until after the Early Bronze Age if my memory serves. Greece proper was already highly civilized and densely populated.

    So, we can say good-bye to the Drews theory and the ridiculous Corded Ware theory. The yDna is G, I, and R1b.

    Didn't you read the paper and the supplement? I know it's a lot with three papers and all the supplements, but the weekend is tomorrow, so we can all catch up.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    So by Corded Ware Intermediaries, I assume he means Bell Beaker folks?
    I think he means directly to Yamnaya; no intermediaries.

    In saying most Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware, he must be seeing Bell Beaker as a branch off of Corded Ware, which I'm not qualified to pronounce on, because I've never paid much attention to it.

  24. #74
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    Angela: RE post #71 and your marito, he should be, Calabria is popping up in every one! :) Salento and Jovialis would be as well as the Pugliese are in every one as well.

  25. #75
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I think he means directly to Yamnaya; no intermediaries.

    In saying most Indo-European speakers stem from Corded Ware, he must be seeing Bell Beaker as a branch off of Corded Ware, which I'm not qualified to pronounce on, because I've never paid much attention to it.
    Angela: Ok, I was not sure what he meant. I think Bell Beaker culturally was related to the Corded Ware, so I think your interpretation is correct. I would think while they all picked up IE languages via Corded Ware expansion which overlapped Bell Beaker culture, the genetics I don't think are the same. The last big paper on the Bell Beakers was that Olade et al 2018 Nature paper and there are 226 Bell Beakers and the paper did note high heterogeneity among the samples. I went back and quickly looked at as I like you did not get to invested in the paper since of the 226 Beaker samples, only 6 really interested me, the 3 Northern Italian Beakers and the 3 Sicilians, but I think due to quality control/coverage, only 1 of the Sicilians had full genome analysis.

    But your hunches, as I already alluded to, were correct regarding Beakers:

    From the paper

    "Individuals associated with the Beaker complex are notably heterogeneous within the European cline along an axis of variation defined by Early Bronze Age Yamnaya individuals from the steppe at one extreme and Middle Neolithic and Copper Age Europeans at the other extreme (Fig. 1c; Extended Data Fig. 3a). This suggests that genetic differentiation among Beaker-complex-associated individuals may be related to variable amounts of steppe-related ancestry"

    The Beakers that went into Great Britain had very, very high Steppe and replaced like 90% of the pre-Steppe Neolithic population. In Iberia, some of the Beaker Iberians were culturally Beaker but lacked any Steppe and were similar to the Neolithic Iberians, although some Iberians had Steppe ancestry which brought IE languages in. But to be honest, there is no clear admixture model in the main text as the samples vary too much.

    I found this statement in the Supplement (p. 152)


    "Steppe ancestry in Beaker-associated individualsWith PCA, ADMIXTURE and f-statistics, we learned that our newly reported individuals reside along the Steppe Early Bronze Age-European Neolithic axis of genetic differentiation. Thus, we tried to model them as a mixture of Steppe_EBA + Anatolia_N + WHG (Table S4). These values were used for Fig. 2a. Many populations can be explained by a mixture of Anatolia_N + WHG without any contribution from Steppe_EBA, indicating a lack of Steppe-related ancestry."


    On page 167 (Table S.4 is the admixture model), the Beaker Italians do not have Predominate Steppe either, 2 of them have none and the 2 that have Steppe have 25.6% and 29.7% respectively (I assume 1 of these is the Sicilian Beaker. Some UK samples have 60% or more Steppe, the Germans > 50%, etc.

    So if Northern Italian Bell Beaker types represent the population that brought in Steppe ancestry and IE languages in the North of Italy, which is what Raveane et al 2019 suggested, they were most definitely not Corded Ware types genetically. I used Jovialis's K8 model to see what it looks like and it works I think quite well for those 4 Beakers (3 Northern Italian, 1 Sicilian). 2 of them, similar to the reported results in Olade et al 2019 Supplement have Steppe (1 the Model hits dead one) and the other 2 had zero (which is effectively what Sicilian Beaker and I2477 Northern Italian Beaker have in the Model). I remember you often saying the Steppe in Northern/Central Italy was mediated through Beaker culture and I think the evidence supports what you said in another post in another thread.



    Target: Olade_etal_2018:I2478_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_I taly
    Distance: 1.9609% / 1.96094933
    60.6 Remedello
    29.3 Yamnaya
    8.9 Minoan
    1.2 Bolshoy_Ostrov



    Target: Olade_etal_2018:I2477_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_I taly
    Distance: 1.2065% / 1.20646925
    54.2 Remedello
    30.4 C_Italian_N
    9.7 Minoan
    5.4 Iberomaurusian
    0.3 Yamnaya


    Target: Olade_etal_2018:I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_I taly
    Distance: 4.9469% / 4.94690417
    42.1 Minoan
    37.7 Remedello
    18.1 Yamnaya
    2.1 Bolshoy_Ostrov


    Target: Olade_etal_2018:I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
    Distance: 1.6558% / 1.65579333
    76.8 Minoan
    18.5 Remedello
    1.9 C_Italian_N
    1.4 Yamnaya
    1.3 Iberomaurusian
    0.1 Bolshoy_Ostrov

    Anyway, sorry to go deep into the weeds on the Steppe impact and spread of IE languages on Italy but since it is a hot topic, I have joined in more on the Steppe non Steppe source of Proto-Indo European language and which type of groups spread IE into Italy and Greece.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 27-08-22 at 06:21. Reason: formatting

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