A genetic probe into the ancient and medieval history of Southern Europe and WestAsia

[matadworf]

From this other table you posted, it seems they were even more levant admixed...or does it depends on using Levant_PPN instead of Natufian?

Wow missed the Attica sample with 89% Barcin similar to Peloponnese N so I'm wondering is this what we would call a "Pelasgian like" profile

 

[Angela]

Just so it's clear, I won't be responding to any G25 analyses of ancient samples that use different or more samples than those in the paper for the comparison.

We have a LOT more Mycenaean samples compared to the first Lazardis paper, and in the new paper it's pointed out that there was great variety among the Mycenaeans. Some had more EHG, some had 0. Some had more Levant PPN; some had little. Greek topography may have had something to do with that.

Very interesting that the Attica samples have virtually no EHG.

Someone upthread mentioned, I believe, that prior to this paper no Levant Neo was present in the farmers of Anatolia. That's not correct. As the Neolithic progressed, there was lots of admixture in the Near East. We knew that before.

In that first Lazaridis paper, they did a break-down of the four Anatolian Bronze samples they had. They were all from southwestern Anatolia so the percentages might have been different in other places. They had an average of 6% Levant Neo.

 

[enter_tain]

I think it's pretty clear Albanian and Greek stem from different sources. Albanian and Messapic come from J2B2-L283 people during the Middle Bronze Age.

 

[Johane Derite]

I think it's pretty clear Albanian and Greek stem from different sources. Albanian and Messapic come from J2B2-L283 people during the Middle Bronze Age.

Hilarious

 

[Angela]

I think it's pretty clear Albanian and Greek stem from different sources. Albanian and Messapic come from J2B2-L283 people during the Middle Bronze Age.

Just give it up; there was split in the stream, but they both came directly from Yamnaya.

What was the yDna of the oldest Albanian samples?

It seems that unlike Corded Ware, the people directly from Yamnaya didn't exterminate the local males or prevent them from reproducing. How do we know that J2b2 wasn't an adopted local lineage, or a lineage that came from Anatolia? Do we have a J2b2 sample in Yamnaya? Do we have one from the Caucasus or south of it?

 

[Silesian]

Albanian and Greek are descended directly from the Yamnaya. We see a cline from Yamnaya, all the way to Greece_N, and Albania_N. With samples like Yamnaya_Bulgaria_o, and Logkas_MBA intermediary. Mycenaean clearly on the cline as well closer to the original Neolithic people in Greece. I think it is possible this same dynamic played out in southern Italy as well, during the Bronze Age. My own halopgroup is from the Yamnaya in the Balkans EBA, which also shows up in Mycenaean Greece.

You have good computer skills, can you make any sense, sample Yamnaya I0443 is ancestral to M269>L23> L51+ Z2103+.

https://amtdb.org/sample/I0443

identifier	I0443
alternative_identifiers	['SVP57']
country	Russia
continent	Europe
region	Pontic steppe
culture	Yamnaya
epoch	Bronze Age
group	YAM
comment	-
latitude	53.380001068115234
longitude	50.38999938964844
sex	M
site	Lopatino, Sok River, Samara
site_detail	Site II
mt_hg	W3a1a
ychr_hg	R1b1a1a2a
year_from	-3300
year_to	-2700
date_detail	3300-2700 BCE

 

[Kuivamaa]

So basically, the Greek language was create as Lingua Franca used for trade between between Minions and other Indoeuropian populations? Correct?! But Armenians ended up speaking Similar languages? This is confusing to me?

As far as I know Armenian and Greek are close, while Albanian is not that close.

According to this Greeks have come rather late in Greece 1500 BCE.


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Minoans spoke an unrelated to IE language as far as we know. Greek wasn’t “created”, it evolved from PIE, IE speakers mixed with the locals and the result was the Myceneans and their language. The Armenian language was never particularly close to any attested form of Greek (unlike Phrygian who is truly close to old Greek), mind you. One reason such hypothesis exists (Greco-Armenian) is that Proto-Greek can be reconstructed to a great extend (Greek has written records of 3500 years) so scholars could pinpoint similarities with Armenian (written records start around 1800 years old, unless mistaken). Albanian texts come much much later, so whatever went on in the language 2500 years ago is anyone’s guess.

 

[Angela]

We know from prior papers that the Greek speakers probably arrived in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, because that's when the "steppe" signature first shows up. In other words, contrary to the fable fed everyone for so long, the Yamnaya people didn't bring Bronze Age culture to Greece.

 

[blevins13]

Minoans spoke an unrelated to IE language as far as we know. Greek wasn’t “created”, it evolved from PIE, IE speakers mixed with the locals and the result was the Myceneans and their language. The Armenian language was never particularly close to any attested form of Greek (unlike Phrygian who is truly close to old Greek), mind you. One reason such hypothesis exists (Greco-Armenian) is that Proto-Greek can be reconstructed to a great extend (Greek has written records of 3500 years) so scholars could pinpoint similarities with Armenian (written records start around 1800 years old, unless mistaken). Albanian texts come much much later, so whatever went on in the language 2500 years ago is anyone’s guess.

So basically Mycenaean = Minoans with a little stepp started speaking Greek as a lingua Franca for trade with whom basically? Phrygian? But they did not do that with Anatolians? Who ever thought about this scenario?

The barbaric Yamnaya thought Minoans a new language. This is quite something.






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[Jovialis]

EDIT

I had read it wrong, Jovialis. I had read Albanians and Greeks instead of their languages. My fault.


Interesting one. Where did you find it Jovialis?

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/08/27/indo-european-phylogeny/#comments

I saw it on Razib Khan's site.

 

[Kuivamaa]

So basically Mycenaean = Minoans with a little step, started speaking Greek as a lingua Franca for trade with whom basically? Phrygian? But they did not do that with Anatolians? Who ever thought about this scenario?

The barbaric Yamnaya teach Minoans a new language. This is quite something.


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What’s up with this lingua Franca story? We have a Helladic area with “Minoan-like” people before steppe people arrived. Their IE language after a few centuries prevailed and totally replaced what was spoken before. The Myceneans didn’t teach the actual, literal Minoans of Crete, it was the opposite, they got influenced by their script and adopted a modified version of it (Linear A vs Linear B).
Myceneans actually militarily conquered Minoans in the end. Myceneans and Hittites were at great odds for long periods, with the latter imposing an embargo on the former (which alludes that there was significant trading going on before that). We have no data that Helladic mainlanders swapped language out of convenience or anything.

 

[mount123]

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[blevins13]

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2022/08/27/indo-european-phylogeny/#comments

I saw it on Razib Khan's site.

One additional point here is that Greek is considered Centum while Albanian Satem.




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[blevins13]

We know from prior papers that the Greek speakers probably arrived in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, because that's when the "steppe" signature first shows up. In other words, contrary to the fable fed everyone for so long, the Yamnaya people didn't bring Bronze Age culture to Greece.

That was always known that Mycenaean culture and Yamnaya culture did not have anything in common, but still to change their language and relatively in a short time, that is a lot. This new theory will not be that easy to stick. I always supported Drew mainly for lack of common material culture, and the Armenian language connection, but it seems that I was wrong in that regard.




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[Kuivamaa]

One additional point here is that Greek is considered Centum while Albanian Satem.




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Armenian is Satem too.

 

[ihype02]

Yes, they admit there was continuous gene flow from Anatolia, but what they, and you, have always been about is that there was specifically gene flow from the Levant which made permanent changes to the Italian genetic signature. So, the fact that some of that "Levantine" you claim to find through the discredited G25 may have arrived through Anatolian people is, I'm sure, unwelcome.

The Anatolian component outweighs the Levantine one in Italy in G25 even when using very distant Anatolian source.

I wanted to say at some point that the inflanted Levantine admixture is eating much of the Anatolian one.
But I don't think Levantine admixture is negligible either just lower than the Anatolian one.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I think it's pretty clear Albanian and Greek stem from different sources. Albanian and Messapic come from J2B2-L283 people during the Middle Bronze Age.

The interesting thing imho is the following:

It seems that some Ionic Greeks had Y-DNA J2a-Y14434 (taking into account Spata and Phocis samples). The Pelagonians in what is now North Macedonia probably had the upstream clade J2a-Y13128 (taking into account the Plaosnik samples).

Based on the samples we have currently clades of J2a-Y13128 first appear in what is now Croatia ~6600 years ago then in a Cycladic culture context.

Interestingly, upstream J-Z27907 seems to exist in Modern Albania. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27907/

I think I have seen other old rare J2a samples in Albania.

The study showed also that there was early prescence of non L283 J2b in Albania, which is also noteworthy.

 

[mount123]

The interesting thing imho is the following:

It seems that some Ionic Greeks had Y-DNA J2a-Y14434 (taking into account Spata and Phocis samples). The Pelagonians in what is now North Macedonia probably had the upstream clade J2a-Y13128 (taking into account the Plaosnik samples).

Based on the samples we have currently clades of J2a-Y13128 first appear in what is now Croatia ~6600 years ago then in a Cycladic culture context.

Interestingly, upstream J-Z27907 seems to exist in Modern Albania. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z27907/

I think I have seen other old rare J2a samples in Albania.

The study showed also that there was early prescence of non L283 J2b in Albania, which is also noteworthy.

J2b-L283 has its centre in the East Adriatic EBA. These samples are indicative of the Proto-Illyrian and Illyrian people not Proto-Albanians. Drawing parallels between these and modern Albanians is senseless to begin with since modern Albanians trace their ancestry from more than two ancient groups.

 

[Hawk]

It looks to me that this paper has just put oil into the fire, instead of coming up with a robust non-refutable model. The paper didn't fulfill the hype. Though, a lot of samples which is always welcome.

 

[ancientDNAhunter]

What insights do folks have on the Southern Arc excel file which shows of ~57 I2 samples nearly half are in Armenia and Turkey? It seems a bit further east than I would have thought for I2 but I am not a professional in this subject by any means. Was wondering what group those I2 in Armenia might be associated with like Celts, Phrygians, or something else.