Minoans with EHG ancestry & Mycenaeans without it!

That CHG levels seems high but I would guess that it doesn’t separate out the CHG coming from Anatolia (I realize there’s a Levantine signal) and the CHG in the Steppe population that entered Greece during the late Bronze. I’m also assuming that’s the CHG average for continental Greece, Anatolia, and Black Sea populations.The Logkas 2 seems closer to what I consider a continental average. I could be wrong.

Here's what I don't get maybe someone could explain this to me. I know this is G25 and I realize it's faults and limitations but with my limited computer skills this is what I'm able to access at the moment. When I use CHG, EHG, and Barcin for myself I get this at a significant distance.

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 6.0490% / 0.06049016 | R3P
60.0TUR_Barcin_N
26.0GEO_CHG
14.0Baltic_LVA_HG

When I add the Yamnaya component the distance shrinks and eats up the CHG and lowers the Barcin. Could there be something to this:

Target: Anthony_C_scaled
Distance: 3.6456% / 0.03645613 | R3P
59.8TUR_Barcin_N
38.6Yamnaya_RUS_Caucasus
1.6GEO_CHG

J
 
Here's what I don't get maybe someone could explain this to me.


I don't know about your question but in the paper EHG=Karelia_HG + Samara_HG, not the Baltic sample you are using.
 
Why exactly?


Because the hivemind decided so, now if their data show something else, there's a problem with reality, not their hypothesis or methodology :LOL::LOL::LOL:.
 
I'm still a bit boggled by the fact that they found so much Levantine in all of these populations. For example, the Minoans were found to have no "Levantine Farmer" in the seminal 2017 paper by Lazaridis.

"Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions."

Moreover, while they did find it in Anatolia_BA (Isparta) it was only at an average of 5%.

Perhaps this has something to do with the model considering they were able to find a bit of Levantine in Yamnaya. The modeling is important to the theory the paper puts forward, because it suggests the second "Near eastern" input into the Steppe carried Anatolia_N + Levantine.
 
Pop's share segments of DNA by mutual crossing or by a one direction crossing, and they share older ancestral DNA too. Who decides who are the donors and the receivers ?. I'm not knowledged enough about all these methodologies but sometimes I think we jump a bit fast to conclusions, in ancient DNA questions, when I see some differences in diverse papers.
 
I'm still a bit boggled by the fact that they found so much Levantine in all of these populations. For example, the Minoans were found to have no "Levantine Farmer" in the seminal 2017 paper by Lazaridis.

"Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions."

Moreover, while they did find it in Anatolia_BA (Isparta) it was only at an average of 5%.

Perhaps this has something to do with the model considering they were able to find a bit of Levantine in Yamnaya. The modeling is important to the theory the paper puts forward, because it suggests the second "Near eastern" input into the Steppe carried Anatolia_N + Levantine.

I think someone needs to ask Lazaridis is these new findings violate the bolded sentence from the 2017 study. How can you reject the hypothesis if you are now finding all this Levantine, according to the new model proposed by this new study? I seriously would like to know, because it seems you cannot have one without the other.
 
I'm still a bit boggled by the fact that they found so much Levantine in all of these populations. For example, the Minoans were found to have no "Levantine Farmer" in the seminal 2017 paper by Lazaridis.

"Other proposed migrations, such as settlement by Egyptian or Phoenician colonists22 are not discernible in our data, as there is no measurable Levantine or African influence in the Minoans and Myceneans, thus rejecting the hypothesis that the cultures of the Aegean were seeded by migrants from the old civilizations of these regions."

Moreover, while they did find it in Anatolia_BA (Isparta) it was only at an average of 5%.

Perhaps this has something to do with the model considering they were able to find a bit of Levantine in Yamnaya. The modeling is important to the theory the paper puts forward, because it suggests the second "Near eastern" input into the Steppe carried Anatolia_N + Levantine.

In the paper he talks about the fact that without PPN the model for the steppe failed, and that's why they added it.

As you say, however, it completely changes the "picture" for everything from Anatolia west.

Did they use "steppe" in the first Greek paper versus breaking it down into CHG and EHG? Also, which Anatolian farmer sample did they use? I don't recall. I wonder what the qpAdm analysis of these new samples would show if those source populations were used instead of the ones they chose for this paper. Would the fit be better or worse than the ones in the current paper?

Also, has anyone done an analysis of the Sicilian Bronze Age samples using the new model?
 
I think someone needs to ask Lazaridis is these new findings violate the bolded sentence from the 2017 study. How can you reject the hypothesis if you are now finding all this Levantine, according to the new model proposed by this new study? I seriously would like to know, because it seems you cannot have one without the other.

Can’t think of any realistic scenario in which this could play out personally. If Minoans didn’t pick Levant_PPN on their way to Greece but Yamnaya picked it later, then Myceneans should have shown it in the 2017 study.
 
In the paper he talks about the fact that without PPN the model for the steppe failed, and that's why they added it.

As you say, however, it completely changes the "picture" for everything from Anatolia west.

Did they use "steppe" in the first Greek paper versus breaking it down into CHG and EHG? Also, which Anatolian farmer sample did they use? I don't recall. I wonder what the qpAdm analysis of these new samples would show if those source populations were used instead of the ones they chose for this paper. Would the fit be better or worse than the ones in the current paper?

Also, has anyone done an analysis of the Sicilian Bronze Age samples using the new model?

This is something I've been meaning to investigate when I get some time. Unless someone else may know off hand.

I can see why they decided to use EHG and CHG for decerning the Steppe. But isn't Levant_PPN, very similar to Anatolia_N? Something like 70%+ similar? Having both of them in the model I would assume would confound the results. But also they're basing a lot on that very small amount of Levant_PPN in Yamnaya to support the Southern Arc theory it seems, even if it totally changes our understanding of the Minoans and Mycenaeans, and everyone west of Anatolia.
 
This is something I've been meaning to investigate when I get some time. Unless someone else may know off hand.

Serbia-Irongates-HG wasn't discovered yet.

And Levant_PPN was used to capture the level of drift towards Natufians and GanjDareh that wasn't possible with the use of Marmara_Barcin alone.
 
Says who? Based on what?

An example with Dodecad K12b (I don't love this calculator but still...)

8Kfs24F.png


NdnN3JY.png


Many of these samples aren't available as G25 coords, right? Is it because they are low coverage or the BAMs not being available?

BAMs are available, but the coverage is too low for some samples, so it is not worthwhile to make G25 coords.

Because the hivemind decided so, now if their data show something else, there's a problem with reality, not their hypothesis or methodology :LOL::LOL::LOL:.

You believe that Mycenaeans are more akin to Alalakh (Syrians) than KapitanAndreevo (Thracians), you are the one who has a problem with reality :LOL::LOL::LOL:.
 
You believe that Mycenaeans are more akin to Alalakh (Syrians) than KapitanAndreevo (Thracians), you are the one who has a problem with reality :LOL::LOL::LOL:.


Your point about the coverage of the .BAMs is valid and it also applies to g25, where it has been demonstrated in the past that poor overlap of sample SNPs to those of 23ameV3's template (on which the majority of gedmatch calculators and g25 are based on). So, as a result, such a poor coverage will produce wildly varying results as the process cannot compensate.

qpAdm has an imputation process to overcome this, but obviously it still suffers from this sample quality bias.

As for the Mycenean comment, I am open for the FST distances that I presented to be refutted, but unfortunately you haven't provided any arguments, unless you have a personal time machine and you want to keep it secret. I am not emotionally invested into this like your little cult is, so your salt is unfounded, we are all peers here.

PS. Bronze Age Anatolia_Alalakh are not Syrians, lol? Modern day Syrians never existed as a homogenous group, open a history book, man. Next thing, you'll tell us about your friends, the modern day ethnic Thracians.
 
Alalakh (Syrians)


This comparison kinda bugged me for some reason so I went ahead and run the g25 for the Alalakh reference. I mean why would a BA Southern Anatolian sample be equated to a modern population that has substantial Arabic origins?

It looks like it doesn't, according to your platform?

Code:
[SIZE=2]Distance to:	TUR_Alalakh_MLBA[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.02390089	Lebanese_Christian[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.02916007	Druze[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03111075	Lebanese_Druze[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03237623	Palestinian_Beit_Sahour[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03273478	Samaritan[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03274951	Iraqi_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03586830	Kurdish_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.03875924	Karaite_Egypt[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04113084	Cypriot[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04119459	Armenian_Urfa[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04194295	Lebanese_Muslim[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04476050	Armenian_Aintab[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04482252	Syrian_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04680321	Iranian_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04795355	Greek_Cappadocia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.04999047	Assyrian[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05058308	Georgian_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05121396	Mountain_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05146511	Greek_Central_Anatolia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05154132	Armenian_Erzurum[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05337574	Armenian_Gesaria[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05455831	Romaniote_Jew[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05515088	Mountain_Jew_o[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05600889	Syrian[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]0.05957310	Greek_Dodecanese[/SIZE]


Why are you mentioning Syrians, I don't get it? Are you being deceptive on purpose? Or is it another strawman?
 
Your point about the coverage of the .BAMs is valid and it also applies to g25, where it has been demonstrated in the past that poor overlap of sample SNPs to those of 23ameV3's template (on which the majority of gedmatch calculators and g25 are based on). So, as a result, such a poor coverage will produce wildly varying results as the process cannot compensate.

qpAdm has an imputation process to overcome this, but obviously it still suffers from this sample quality bias.

As for the Mycenean comment, I am open for the FST distances that I presented to be refutted, but unfortunately you haven't provided any arguments, unless you have a personal time machine and you want to keep it secret. I am not emotionally invested into this like your little cult is, so your salt is unfounded, we are all peers here.

PS. Bronze Age Anatolia_Alalakh are not Syrians, lol? Modern day Syrians never existed as a homogenous group, open a history book, man. Next thing, you'll tell us about your friends, the modern day ethnic Thracians.

Don't tell me! He's still doing this sort of thing??? :LOL:
 
Serbia-Irongates-HG wasn't discovered yet.

And Levant_PPN was used to capture the level of drift towards Natufians and GanjDareh that wasn't possible with the use of Marmara_Barcin alone.

Gotcha,

But I wonder why Serbia-Irongates-HG would make a difference, since it only seems to come up in more northern Balkan samples.

At any rate, I see the excerpt in regards to the use of Levantine.

Nevertheless, I wonder if things would change up if they use the Dzudzuana and Taforalt samples, rather than Barcin and Levant_PPN. Despite the fact that the Dzudzuana samples are not out yet, I wonder if they considered using it.

Considering Natufian is modeled as 72% Dzudzuana and rest Taforalt, I wonder if one would find Taforalt in Yamnaya. If not, I think it could be a chink in the armor of this Southern Arc theory.

Archaeological evidence documents how western steppe populations interacted with European farmer groups such as the Cucuteni-Trypillia and Globular Amphora cultures, and it was previously suggested that ancestry from such groups contributed to the ancestry of the Yamnaya (17). Our genetic results contradict this scenario because European farmers were themselves a mixture of Anatolian Neolithic and European hunter-gatherer ancestry, but the Yamnaya lacked the European hunter-gatherer ancestry differentiating European from West Asian farmers, and had an ~1:1 ratio of Levantine-to-Anatolian ancestry in our five-way model, contrasting with the overwhelming predominance of Anatolian ancestry in European farmers. The Caucasus hunter-gatherer/Eastern hunter-gatherer/Western hunter-gatherer/Anatolian Neolithic model of (17) fails (P < 1 × 10–10) because it underestimates shared genetic drift with Levantine farmers (Z = 5.6), whose contribution into the Yamnaya cannot be explained under that model. These results shift the quest for the ancestral origins of a component of Yamnaya ancestry firmly to the south of the steppe and the eastern wing of the Southern Arc. Determining the proximate source of the two movements into the steppe from the south will depend on further sampling across the Anatolia-Caucasus-Mesopotamia-Zagros area where populations with variations of the three components existed. Similarly, on the steppe side, study of Eneolithic (pre-Yamnaya) individuals could disclose the source dynamics of Caucasus hunter-gatherer infiltration northward and identify the likely geographical region for the emergence of the distinctive Yamnaya cluster, which we show has an autosomal signal of admixture dating to the mid-5th millennium BCE [fig. S5 and (19)], coinciding with the direct evidence of the first southern influence provided by the Eneolithic individuals of the steppe.
 
As for the Mycenean comment, I am open for the FST distances that I presented to be refutted, but unfortunately you haven't provided any arguments, unless you have a personal time machine and you want to keep it secret.

What exactly am I supposed to "refute"? It should be obvious to anyone that Mycenaeans are more akin to KapitanAndreevo than to Alalakh.

Dodecad K12b

Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
7.97516845 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
32.08378373 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

Global25

Distance to: GRC_Mycenaean
0.02360507 BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
0.09259077 TUR_Alalakh_MLBA

I am not emotionally invested into this like your little cult is, so your salt is unfounded, we are all peers here.

I'm not emotionally invested into this, I don't understand what you're referring to? And by the way, my "little cult" was also yours until the day before yesterday, dosas.

dosas said:
Better spend your money on G25, and then link your co-ordinates here so people can help you further

Next thing, you'll tell us about your friends, the modern day ethnic Thracians.

And you'll tell us about your other friends, the modern-day ethnic Hurro-Urartians, who until recently were listed in your "meta-ethnicity" :)

open a history book, man.

And you should open a geography one instead. Alalakh is located in the Levant and is completely outside of Anatolia or even South Anatolia.

PS. Bronze Age Anatolia_Alalakh are not Syrians, lol? Modern day Syrians never existed as a homogenous group.

This comparison kinda bugged me for some reason so I went ahead and run the g25 for the Alalakh reference. I mean why would a BA Southern Anatolian sample be equated to a modern population that has substantial Arabic origins?

It looks like it doesn't, according to your platform?

Why are you mentioning Syrians, I don't get it?

The site of Alalakh is literally 23 km from Antioch, which for almost 700 years was the capital of Syria (Provincia Syria, Coele Syria, Syria Prima etc.), hence my use of the term "Syrians".

However, I meant BA Syrians, not modern-day Syrians. For example, if I had to refer to the people of Bronze Age Italy I would say BA Italians, although Italians obviously did not exist during that period.

Are you being deceptive on purpose? Or is it another strawman?

Yes, I was being intentionally deceptive, now you can shake Angela's hand ;)
 
[FONT=&quot]Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry as a marker for Yamnaya steppe pastoralist ancestry is absent in a newly reported Middle Minoan period individual from Zakros on the eastern edge of Crete. This individual’s ancestry is generally similar to those previously published ([/FONT]13[FONT=&quot]), but with significant Levantine admixture (30.5 ± 9.1%), which is consistent with her either being a migrant to the island from the east or part of a structured Cretan population whose past ethnic diversity was noted as early as the [/FONT]Odyssey of Homer (Hom. Od. 19.172-177).

...

Both Caucasus and Eastern European hunter-gatherer–related ancestry increased in the Bronze Age in the Aegean just as the Anatolian-related ancestry decreased (Fig. 1), with Mycenaean Greeks having 21.2 ± 1.3% Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry and 4.3 ± 1.0% Eastern European hunter-gatherer ancestry. Given the evenly balanced proportions of these components in the Yamnaya and the “high steppe” cluster from the Balkans (1), it can be assumed that the Eastern European hunter-gatherer component in the Aegean was not introduced there on its own but rather was accompanied by an approximately matching amount of Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry, thus leaving a remainder of ~21.2 − 4.3 = 16.9% Caucasus hunter-gatherer. This allows us to infer that steppe migrants admixed with a population whose composition must have included 16.9100−2×4.3 or ~18.5% Caucasus hunter-gatherer–related ancestry. Notably, the estimated proportion of Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry in Minoans is virtually identical at 18.3 ± 1.2%. Thus, our analyses resolve the question of the origins of the Late Bronze Age population by strongly supporting one of two previously proposed hypotheses (4)—that Mycenaeans were the outcome of admixture of descendants of Yamnaya-like steppe migrants with a Minoan-like substratum, rather than the hitherto plausible alternative scenario of an Anatolian Neolithic–like substratum admixing with an Armenian-like population from the east. This alternative scenario is further contradicted by the fact that pre–Mycenaean period individuals belonging to the Early Bronze Age from the islands of the Cyclades and Euboea in Southern Greece in ~2500 BCE (12) had 21.2 ± 1.7% Caucasus hunter-gatherer–related ancestry (12), consistent with our inferred proportion and providing direct evidence for the predicted Minoan-like substratum (4).

The fact that Mycenaeans can be modeled as a mixture in an ~1:10 ratio of a Yamnaya-like steppe-derived population and a Minoan- or Early Bronze Age–like Aegean population suggests that any contribution of geographically intermediate populations (between the steppe and the Aegean) to the formation of Mycenaeans was minor. This conclusion is further supported by the following: (i) the lower (~5%) Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Neolithic of the Balkans compared with the ~20% inferred for the Aegean substratum (1), (ii) the near absence of Balkan hunter-gatherer (fig. S1) ancestry in the Aegean in contrast to other Southeastern European populations (~10%) (1), and (iii) the presence of Yamnaya-like individuals with minimal local ancestry—immediately to the north of the Aegean—in Albania and Bulgaria during the Early Bronze Age (1). Whatever the genetic makeup of people mediating the spread of steppe ancestry into the ancestors of Mycenaeans, the genetic impact of steppe on Aegean populations was quantitatively minor. We estimate the Yamnaya-related steppe ancestry proportion in Mycenaeans to be ~⅓ of the level of that in the Balkans to the north, ~½ of that in Armenia in the east, and ~⅕ to ⅛ of that of populations of Central/Northern Europe associated with the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultures (1).

wV5pAZ6.png
 
What exactly am I supposed to "refute"? It should be obvious to anyone that Mycenaeans are more akin to KapitanAndreevo than to Alalakh.

Can you explain the toolset and methodology with which you reached your 'obvious' results? I don't see it. To save you time you could make the argument that the FST distances are the way they are because the Alalakh samples are of better quality than the Bulgaria_IA ones, and you'd be right since there is such bias when you run an FST distance computation, but then you'll have to admit that your results are also bogus, more probably than not, because they are extracted from those very same samples in the Reich dataset, haha:LOL:.


I'm not emotionally invested into this, I don't understand what you're referring to? And by the way, my "little cult" was also yours until the day before yesterday, dosas.

They cast me out early because I wasn't playing along with their 'we wuz' BS (mostly Greek related but also relative to what we are discussing now). They also got really angered and emotional when I challenged the validity of their precious PCA's results and their historical fantasy re-recreations about Medieval Greece and its continuity, just like you. But I'll take your word for it. No worries.

And you'll tell us about your other friends, the modern-day ethnic Hurro-Urartians, who until recently were listed in your "meta-ethnicity" :)

I never mentioned any modern day Urartian (which would be the Armenians, afaik). But, sure, what do you want to know about them? I am still catching up.

And you should open a geography one instead. Alalakh is located in the Levant and is completely outside of Anatolia or even South Anatolia.

It's right on the border. In a BA context it makes little difference. The whole thing with the "Levant" is a creation of your "East Med" buddies and their attempt to argue for some sort of historical continuity from the BA, in order to explain how Greeks (island), Italians (South), Maltese and Ashkenazi Jews all plot together, like there is some sort of historical connection. Let me say it once again, although I am sure it will fall on deaf areas, there is no continuity or connection, the positioning of the fabled "East Med" cluster on your PCA is entirely coincidental and a product of mostly Medieval historical processes, at least for Greece, not so much opinionated about the others. There's historical accords of continuous emptying and repopulation of that island geographical cluster in Greece.

The site of Alalakh is literally 23 km from Antioch, which for almost 700 years was the capital of Syria (Provincia Syria, Coele Syria, Syria Prima etc.), hence my use of the term "Syrians".

However, I meant BA Syrians, not modern-day Syrians. For example, if I had to refer to the people of Bronze Age Italy I would say BA Italians, although Italians obviously did not exist during that period.

You made a mistake and now you're backtracking. No biggie.

Yes, I was being intentionally deceptive, now you can shake Angela's hand ;)

OK, I am not sure what I am supposed to take from this??
 

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