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Thread: Minoans with EHG ancestry & Mycenaeans without it!

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    Minoans with EHG ancestry & Mycenaeans without it!

    Look at these samples from "The genetic history of the Southern Arc":



    What do you think about it?

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    Also, Mycenaeans seem to have more "Levant" than the Minoans.

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    Last time we saw it, it was the opposite. Don't know what to say about this paper anymore. Somehow, it just doesn't click in some cases. Minoans lived in Crete, in the southernmost Aegean island, i find it hard to believe this is the case, first geographically-wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Also, Mycenaeans seem to have more "Levant" than the Minoans.
    Yes, especially those Bronze Age Lokris and Kastrouli samples with about 50% Levant ancestry.

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    It's been postulated that Phoenicians had trade/contact with the Mycenean world prior to 900 B.C. because of some pottery in Euboea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    It's been postulated that Phoenicians had trade/contact with the Mycenean world prior to 900 B.C. because of some pottery in Euboea.
    They seem to be from a long time before the Phoenician era -> 1613-1503 calBCE GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    They seem to be from a long time before the Phoenician era -> 1613-1503 calBCE GRC_Mycenaean_Lokris_BA

    Re-read my post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eupator View Post
    Re-read my post.
    I gave more info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Look at these samples from "The genetic history of the Southern Arc":

    What do you think about it?
    Timeline is important. Myceneans were present in Crete before 1450BCE which is roughly when they conquered the Minoan capital of Knossos. Minoans could have easily picked EHG a bit before that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    Timeline is important. Myceneans were present in Crete before 1450BCE which is roughly when they conquered the Minoan capital of Knossos. Minoans could have easily picked EHG a bit before that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Last time we saw it, it was the opposite. Don't know what to say about this paper anymore. Somehow, it just doesn't click in some cases. Minoans lived in Crete, in the southernmost Aegean island, i find it hard to believe this is the case, first geographically-wise.
    Do you think the data is tampered?

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    The supplementary information (page 234) has 4pc (plus or minus 1pc) EHG for Mycenaeans and only 1pc (plus or minus 1pc) EHG for Minoans.

    "The EHG ancestry is ~3-fold lower in the Mycenaean samples than in the Bronze Age samples from North Macedonia and Albania immediately to the north of Greece and~10-fold lower than in Moldova on the edge of the steppe".

    "...although steppe-derived ancestry was present in Bronze Age Greece it was quantitively the weakest discernible component, only a little above the practically non-existent Balkan hunter-gatherer ancestry".

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    What is the source of the table? I don't recall seeing it in the paper. Are those samples available in G25 format?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lockdownboredom View Post
    What is the source of the table? I don't recall seeing it in the paper. Are those samples available in G25 format?
    This is the source: https://www.science.org/doi/suppl/10...a_s1_to_s5.zip (science.abm4247_data_s5.xlsx)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lockdownboredom View Post
    What is the source of the table? I don't recall seeing it in the paper. Are those samples available in G25 format?
    Go to the Eurogenes blog...latest article by Davidski.

    I don't agree with his views but he provides a free link to the supplementary information.

    Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Samples 2-6 are plausible within the “recent”end of that time range. They still paint a picture of very early Mycenean activity in Minoan Crete. The first sample however throws a wrench into everything we think we know. Unless something is wrong with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    Samples 2-6 are plausible within the “recent”end of that time range. They still paint a picture of very early Mycenean activity in Minoan Crete. The first sample however throws a wrench into everything we think we know. Unless something is wrong with it.
    The problem is that a large number of Mycenaean samples didn't have EHG ancestry themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    The problem is that a large number of Mycenaean samples didn't have EHG ancestry themselves.
    That’s not a big issue really. You can have adopted Minoans into Mycenean families or mixed communities. It’s the first Minoan sample that doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Is this a typo or misread source?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    The problem is that a large number of Mycenaean samples didn't have EHG ancestry themselves.
    I think the better proxy for Steppe for the Myceneans is to use Yamnaya directly not a Direct EHG. The Yamnaya were at first a close to 50/50 split of EHG+CHG but the Southern/eastern flank of Yamnaya territory, IE speakers according to the new Lazaridis et al 2022 paper is that the the proportion of CHG was 17% higher, so the IE coming into Greece were more like 67% CHG + 33% EHG, on average. So lets assume 10% Steppe, the average Mycenean is going to be around 3% EHG, some on the left hand of the distribution are going to have 0. So perhaps use some of the later bronze Age Yamnaya samples that came into the Balkans that were more CHG relative to EHG in terms of Ancestry.

    I personally don't see it as a problem. Just IE speakers varied in their relative proportions of CHG + EHG + older EEF Neolithic Farmer ancestry.

    Anyway, that is my reading of the Mycenean situation, if I am off in my interpretation of the new paper, open for constructive corrections. Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post
    That’s not a big issue really. You can have adopted Minoans into Mycenean families or mixed communities. It’s the first Minoan sample that doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. Is this a typo or misread source?
    There are some other problems, like high amount of Levant ancestry in Mycenaean samples.
    I think all of those Minoan samples are too old and they couldn't be related to Mycenaeans.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    There are some other problems, like high amount of Levant ancestry in Mycenaean samples.
    I think all of those Minoan samples are too old and they couldn't be related to Mycenaeans.
    I don't see why that's necessarily a problem; there were successive waves of dna from Anatolia into Greece from the early Neolithic through to the Bronze Age. Parts of Anatolia, Cyprus, etc. could have carried PPNB in addition to what was in Anatolia Neolithic.

    As to your bolded comment, it just doesn't make any sense. What does the age of the Minoan samples matter. How old are the oldest Yamnaya samples, yet they're "related" to a lot of late Bronze Age people. How old is EHG for goodness' sakes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Go to the Eurogenes blog...latest article by Davidski.

    I don't agree with his views but he provides a free link to the supplementary information.

    Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
    You don't have to pay to join Science Direct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Look at these samples from "The genetic history of the Southern Arc":



    What do you think about it?
    What I think is that as the authors state, there was wide variation among the samples they happened to find. Some of the Mycenaeans have 0 Levant, some have .03. It's just the luck of the draw. I'm sure there was as much variation in Minoan Crete.

    The flow of dna from Anatolia was constant. Different flows would have had a different make-up. Those who came from southeastern Anatolia, then to Cyprus, then to Crete might have had different proportions than those from different areas in Anatolia.

    Just take a look at Italy today. I'm closer to some Balkan countries and Spanish samples than to Southern Anatolia. With the mass migration from southern Italy to Northern Italy starting in the 1950s it's a jumble. If some pop gen researcher 1000 years from now were taking samples from certain areas he'd be amazed at the variation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't see why that's necessarily a problem; there were successive waves of dna from Anatolia into Greece from the early Neolithic through to the Bronze Age. Parts of Anatolia, Cyprus, etc. could have carried PPNB in addition to what was in Anatolia Neolithic.

    As to your bolded comment, it just doesn't make any sense. What does the age of the Minoan samples matter. How old are the oldest Yamnaya samples, yet they're "related" to a lot of late Bronze Age people. How old is EHG for goodness' sakes?
    As you said I also think "successive waves of dna from Anatolia into Greece from the early Neolithic through to the Bronze Age" is the most likely scenario, in fact Minoans were not the only people who came from this region.

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    There are huge cultural similarities between Mycenaeans and ancient Mycians who lived in the south of Caucasus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

    These similarities also exist between them and non-Indo-European people who lived in this region, like Georgians, for example look at it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amirani

    Amirani or Amiran (Georgian: ამირანი) is the name of a culture hero of a Georgian epic who resembles the Classical Prometheus. Various versions of the myth reveal a process through which the myth was transformed over time, but the legend itself is traced between 3,000 and 2,000 years BC at the beginning of the first Iron Age, as in the myth Demiurge Amirani defies God by introducing to the human kind the use of metal, and just like Prometheus, he is punished and chained on Caucasus with his cursed dog Q'ursha. Similar to the Prometheus myth, an eagle eats his liver in the day, but it heals itself every night.

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