Minoans with EHG ancestry & Mycenaeans without it!

[eupator]

I have to agree with you, after reading about PIE from West Asia I was hospitalized for excessive laughter and I don't think I will ever recover

Anyway, for me the discussion can end here.

I agree, until you can provide a viable answer to the following question that shuts you down, it's pointless to try and argue fruitfully further.

Can you provide any evidence on how the data was not tampered in any way in order to produce desirable results, for your toolset of choice?

No?

I didn't think so.

 

[matadworf]

Modern Greeks definitely don’t cluster with Myceneans. We’ve always thought of Myceneans as an ancient Mediterranean population with fairly high Barcin, extra CHG through latter Anatolian migrations and minor Steppe. But what about the MBA Helladic folks who probably are more representative of modern mainlanders. Can someone explore their ancestral component composition. Logkas 2 is essentially identical to modern mainland Greeks-maybe less Barcin and Steppe buy higher WHG.

 

[Jovialis]

Modern Greeks definitely don’t cluster with Myceneans. We’ve always thought of Myceneans as an ancient Mediterranean population with fairly high Barcin, extra CHG through latter Anatolian migrations and minor Steppe. But what about the MBA Helladic folks who probably are more representative of modern mainlanders. Can someone explore their ancestral component composition. Logkas 2 is essentially identical to modern mainland Greeks-maybe less Barcin and Steppe buy higher WHG.

The whole dynamic of the region genetically is basically Yamnaya + Neolithic groups, regardless of cultural affiliation. Myceneans were generally more of a 1:10 ratio between Yamnaya and Minoan, but still on that cline.

 

[Kuivamaa]

Modern Greeks definitely don’t cluster with Myceneans. We’ve always thought of Myceneans as an ancient Mediterranean population with fairly high Barcin, extra CHG through latter Anatolian migrations and minor Steppe. But what about the MBA Helladic folks who probably are more representative of modern mainlanders. Can someone explore their ancestral component composition. Logkas 2 is essentially identical to modern mainland Greeks-maybe less Barcin and Steppe buy higher WHG.

Well Myceneans are the first true Greek layer, the ethnogenesis starting point. In the last 5 years, research gave us a wealth of data on them and we now have a decent understanding of what they were but at the same time there is a dearth of Archaic, Classical and Hellenistic samples. Crucially we don’t quite know how exactly Dorians came to be. Did the Yamnaya split on their way to Greece, some stuck in Epirus/Macedonia and intermixed with different locals than their brethren that continued south to give rise to the Myceneans? Something else? Or this plus additions?

 

[Moja]

 

[Jovialis]

The whole dynamic of the region genetically is basically Yamnaya + Neolithic groups, regardless of cultural affiliation. Myceneans were generally more of a 1:10 ratio between Yamnaya and Minoan, but still on that cline.

From the South Europe and West Asia study:

Thus, our analyses resolve the question of the origins of the Late Bronze Age population by strongly supporting one of two previously proposed hypotheses (4)—that Mycenaeans were the outcome of admixture of descendants of Yamnaya-like steppe migrants with a Minoan-like substratum, rather than the hitherto plausible alternative scenario of an Anatolian Neolithic–like substratum admixing with an Armenian-like population from the east. This alternative scenario is further contradicted by the fact that pre–Mycenaean period individuals belonging to the Early Bronze Age from the islands of the Cyclades and Euboea in Southern Greece in ~2500 BCE (12) had 21.2 ± 1.7% Caucasus hunter-gatherer–related ancestry (12), consistent with our inferred proportion and providing direct evidence for the predicted Minoan-like substratum (4).
The fact that Mycenaeans can be modeled as a mixture in an ~1:10 ratio of a Yamnaya-like steppe-derived population and a Minoan- or Early Bronze Age–like Aegean population suggests that any contribution of geographically intermediate populations (between the steppe and the Aegean) to the formation of Mycenaeans was minor. This conclusion is further supported by the following: (i) the lower (~5%) Caucasus hunter-gatherer ancestry in the Neolithic of the Balkans compared with the ~20% inferred for the Aegean substratum (1), (ii) the near absence of Balkan hunter-gatherer (fig. S1) ancestry in the Aegean in contrast to other Southeastern European populations (~10%) (1), and (iii) the presence of Yamnaya-like individuals with minimal local ancestry—immediately to the north of the Aegean—in Albania and Bulgaria during the Early Bronze Age (1). Whatever the genetic makeup of people mediating the spread of steppe ancestry into the ancestors of Mycenaeans, the genetic impact of steppe on Aegean populations was quantitatively minor. We estimate the Yamnaya-related steppe ancestry proportion in Mycenaeans to be ~⅓ of the level of that in the Balkans to the north, ~½ of that in Armenia in the east, and ~⅕ to ⅛ of that of populations of Central/Northern Europe associated with the Bell Beaker and Corded Ware cultures (1).

This is the model that was supported:

 

[Jovialis]

Where is this graphic from, and what does it signify? Because even Lazaridis confirms the Yamnaya-Minoan origin over the Armenian-Anatolian_N origin for the Mycenaeans.

 

[Anfänger]

Where is this graphic from, and what does it signify? Because even Lazaridis confirms the Yamnaya-Minoan origin over the Armenian-Anatolian_N origin for the Mycenaeans.

Jovialis, he‘s a professional troll. I wouldn’t start a discussion with him.

 

[eupator]

Α small correction to the graphic, Perseas did not found Persia, it was his son (with Andromeda) Perses who did so.

The Achaemenids in their oral history are descendants of this Greek lineage, Cyrus even refers to this common ancestry (with Perseas' Achaeans) when addressing the Greeks, according to Herodotus.

 

[Moja]

Where is this graphic from, and what does it signify? Because even Lazaridis confirms the Yamnaya-Minoan origin over the Armenian-Anatolian_N origin for the Mycenaeans.

I myself created it, Lazaridis shared a tweet by Dr Matthew Scarborough (an Indo-Europeanist who primarily works on Greek), Scarborough says: "If Armenian is the result of back-migration over the Caucasus to account for their eastern hunter gatherer ancestry, what implications does this have for the (highly contested) Greco-Armenian or Balkanic-IE hypotheses?"

In fact we know about the strong relation between Armenian and Greek languages, it can't be said that one of them came from the Balkans and another one from the north of Caucasus.

The steppe homeland for Indo-European languages, by David Anthony:

https://armchairprehistory.com/2017...pean-homelands-ancient-genetic-clues-at-last/

 

[Kuivamaa]

I myself created it, Lazaridis shared a tweet by Dr Matthew Scarborough (an Indo-Europeanist who primarily works on Greek), Scarborough says: "If Armenian is the result of back-migration over the Caucasus to account for their eastern hunter gatherer ancestry, what implications does this have for the (highly contested) Greco-Armenian or Balkanic-IE hypotheses?"

In fact we know about the strong relation between Armenian and Greek languages, it can't be said that one of them came from the Balkans and another one from the north of Caucasus.

The steppe homeland for Indo-European languages, by David Anthony:

https://armchairprehistory.com/2017...pean-homelands-ancient-genetic-clues-at-last/

The strong relationship between Greek and Armenian languages is nowhere as strong as the one between Greek and Phrygian. Armenian would have presumably been a lot closer to Greek had they accompanied Greeks and Phrygians through the Balkans and simply ventured further east than the latter. It is very very plausible they split from the other two in the steppe and just went southeast instead of southwest.

 

[eupator]

The strong relationship between Greek and Armenian languages is nowhere as strong as the one between Greek and Phrygian. Armenian would have presumably been a lot closer to Greek had they accompanied Greeks and Phrygians through the Balkans and simply ventured further east than the latter. It is very very plausible they split from the other two in the steppe and just went southeast instead of southwest.

It's funny you mention it because there is this quote by Herodotus (440):

Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι (7.73)

Armenians were equipped as Phrygians, since they were Phrygian colonists.

 

[Moja]

The strong relationship between Greek and Armenian languages is nowhere as strong as the one between Greek and Phrygian. Armenian would have presumably been a lot closer to Greek had they accompanied Greeks and Phrygians through the Balkans and simply ventured further east than the latter. It is very very plausible they split from the other two in the steppe and just went southeast instead of southwest.

We read from The genetic history of the Southern Arc: "In the case of Anatolia, this is complicated by the influence that neighboring Indo-European peoples may have exerted on the population since the 1st millennium BCE (e.g., Persians, Greeks, Phrygians, Galatians, Romans, to name a few). Yet, despite these influences, steppe-derived Y-chromosomes are rare to non-existent throughout Anatolia."

Gordion was the capital city of ancient Phrygia:

All Gordion male samples are J2a.

 

[Kuivamaa]

We read from The genetic history of the Southern Arc: "In the case of Anatolia, this is complicated by the influence that neighboring Indo-European peoples may have exerted on the population since the 1st millennium BCE (e.g., Persians, Greeks, Phrygians, Galatians, Romans, to name a few). Yet, despite these influences, steppe-derived Y-chromosomes are rare to non-existent throughout Anatolia."
Gordion was the capital city of ancient Phrygia:

All Gordion male samples are J2a.

Low steppe corroborates the link between Greeks and Phrygians. Both Greece and Anatolia were probably already densely populated by the time yamnaya came south, and Myceneans have low steppe too. Stands to reason Phrygians wouldn’t be much different if they are the byproduct of Bronze Age steppe+anatolian admixture. Armenians are still a separate story.

 

[Kuivamaa]

It's funny you mention it because there is this quote by Herodotus (440):
Ἀρμένιοι δὲ κατά περ Φρύγες ἐσεσάχατο, ἐόντες Φρυγῶν ἄποικοι (7.73)
Armenians were equipped as Phrygians, since they were Phrygian colonists.

I too, for many years considered the possibility that Phrygians are the intermediate link between Greeks and Armenians, and those three spread from Balkans to southern Caucasus or vice versa. But evidence doesn’t support this view.
“The Yamnaya expansion also crossed the Caucasus, and by about 4000 years ago, Armenia had become an enclave of low but pervasive steppe ancestry in West Asia, where the patrilineal descendants of Yamnaya men, virtually extinct on the steppe, persisted. The Armenian language was born there, related to Indo-European languages of Europe such as Greek by their shared Yamnaya heritage.”
Southern arc paper tells us up front that the yamnaya progenitors of the Armenians crossed the Caucasus which would be compatible with the Anatolian origin hypothesis for Greeks. But it also tells us that Armenians were rich (or just higher than in Myceneans anyway) in steppe ydna. If Phrygians didn’t have much and Greeks presumably had more than Phrygians, it doesn’t make sense for those three to be linked with Phrygians in the center. It points towards yamnaya having a southeastern route into Caucasus where their paternal lines survived nicely and a southwestern, into the Balkans where it split into two (Greece vs central Anatolia) with their patrilineal signal getting diluted, more so for the second branch.

 

[Jovialis]

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2022/09/dear-iosif-about-that-2.html

Eurogenes made an article regarding this matter.

 

[Jovialis]

Look at these samples from "The genetic history of the Southern Arc":

What do you think about it?

I don't use G25, but could someone post a model that uses Yamnaya instead of EHG? I'm curious to see how it pans out.

 

[Moja]

Low steppe corroborates the link between Greeks and Phrygians. Both Greece and Anatolia were probably already densely populated by the time yamnaya came south, and Myceneans have low steppe too. Stands to reason Phrygians wouldn’t be much different if they are the byproduct of Bronze Age steppe+anatolian admixture. Armenians are still a separate story.

I wonder who these steppe people were, a people who couldn't impose Indo-European language on others when they were in absolute majority, like about Etruscans and Urartians, but they could create several different Indo-European languages in a region when they were in absolute minority!!

 

[Angela]

I wonder who these steppe people were, a people who couldn't impose Indo-European language on others when they were in absolute majority, like about Etruscans and Urartians, but they could create several different Indo-European languages in a region when they were in absolute minority!!

Who told you that the incoming steppe admixed people were an absolute majority compared to the Chalcolithic Italians they encountered in Italy? A crystal ball?

 

[Moja]

Who told you that the incoming steppe admixed people were an absolute majority compared to the Chalcolithic Italians they encountered in Italy? A crystal ball?

As you read here: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2000-year archeogenomic time transect "the newly reported central Italian individuals from 800 to 1 BCE show ~75% frequency of the Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b, mostly represented by the R1b-P312 polymorphism and its derived R1b-L2, that diffused across Europe alongside steppe-related ancestry"