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Thread: J2b, From Eluri/Alluria (Luristan) to Illyria (Illuría)

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    J2b, From Eluri/Alluria (Luristan) to Illyria (Illuría)

    About Haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA): https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    The first appearance of J2 during the Neolithic came in the form of a 10,000 year-old J2b sample from Tepe Abdul Hosein in north-western Iran in what was then the Pre-Pottery Neolithic
    More info about Tepe Abdul Hosein of Luristan: https://www.iranicaonline.org/articl...ic-age-in-iran

    Tepe Abdul Hosein is located at 1,860 m above sea level in the Khava mountain valley of Luristan. It is one of the oldest Neolithic sites yet excavated in this region, dating to about 9,500 B.P., somewhat later than Ganj Dareh and about the same age as the preceramic Deh Luran sites, as indicated by the stone tools that are comparable with those from Tepe Ali Kosh and Chogha Sefid (Pullar, pp. 103-156).
    Some J2b samples from "The genetic history of the Southern Arc":



    As you see all of them are either in the northwest of Iran or Western Balkan.

    Alluria/Eluri was the name of land, river, mountain, ... in the northwest of Iran (South of Urartu) in the ancient Akkadian sources: Ancient Records of Assyria and Babylonia Volume 1: Historical Records of Assyria From the Earliest Times to Sargon


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    Luri Circle Dance in Tepe Musian of Deh Luran, 5,000 BC:



    Luri Dance:



    Albanian Dance:


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    Luristan flag:



    Ancient Luristan Bronze:



    Illyrian Symbols:


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    Bust of Teuta, Illyrian queen:



    Lur woman:


    Illyrian hat:



    Lur men:


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Lurs are rich in R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93, G2a there is no J2b-L283 in Lurs. The sample from Haj firuz is J-Z2453 not J2b2a1 aka J2b-L283.

    These are pseudo scientific posts, and this thread should be closed honestly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Lurs are rich in R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93, G2a there is no J2b-L283 in Lurs. The sample from Haj firuz is J-Z2453 not J2b2a1 aka J2b-L283.

    These are pseudo scientific posts, and this thread should be closed honestly.
    I think you are in a wrong forum, this is Eupedia. Look at this article in this website: J2b2-L283: from Neolithic Iran to the Indo-Europeans

    J2b is also absent from western and central Anatolia, but is present in eastern Anatolia and western Iran, as well as in the Volga-Ural region, notably among the Mordvins, Chuvashs and Tatars. The oldest known J2b sample comes from the Pre-Pottery Neolithic site of Tepe Abdul Hosein in western Iran, dating from approximately 10,000 years ago. This is the strongest evidence that J2b actually originated in the mountains of the Zagros or the Caucasus, rather than in the plains of the Fertile Crescent.

    The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Lurs are rich in R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93, G2a there is no J2b-L283 in Lurs. The sample from Haj firuz is J-Z2453 not J2b2a1 aka J2b-L283.

    These are pseudo scientific posts, and this thread should be closed honestly.

    READING COMPREHENSION: J2b-L283 has never been found in Iran. There are scientific papers one should read. The sample from Haj Firuz is J-Z2453 NOT J2b-L283.


    I am going to ignore further posts from you as you have a history with spreading pseudo scientific non sense. Just wanted to point out the obvious.

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    Iran is the source, not destination, there are Bronze Age J2b-L283 samples from the Caucasus (KDC001 in Kabardino-Balkaria and RISE408 from Norabak near Lake Sevan).

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    There are many similar toponyms in Luristan and Illyria, for example the highest mountain in the west of Luristan (Deh Luran) is Dinar Mountain: https://www.itto.org/iran/attraction...inar-Mountain/ and the highest mountain in Croatia is Dinara Mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinara

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    THE OLDEST J2b-L283 SAMPLES ARE FROM THE EBA East Adriatic.


    Balkaria is in Russia Northern Caucasus, nothing to do with Iran besides that, that sample is YOUNGER than the OLDER EBA West Balkan samples. The Norabak sample is even younger.


    From fallaciously claiming Lurs a NON EUROPEAN people who are rich in R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93, G2a have some relation to the EBA East Adriatic to comparing these and that Iranian/Indian whatever trans woman to a modern fake bust, you obviously want to spread the propaganda you want to spread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    THE OLDEST J2b-L283 SAMPLES ARE FROM THE EBA East Adriatic.


    Balkaria is in Russia Northern Caucasus, nothing to do with Iran besides that, that sample is YOUNGER than the OLDER EBA West Balkan samples. The Norabak sample is even younger.


    All of them are subclades of J2b sample from Luristan which is the oldest one, aren't they?


    From fallaciously claiming Lurs a NON EUROPEAN people who are rich in R1b-Z2103, R1a-Z93, G2a have some relation to the EBA East Adriatic to comparing these and that Iranian/Indian whatever trans woman to a modern fake bust, you obviously want to spread the propaganda you want to spread.
    I don't know why you are lying about Lurs, they have no R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs

    Considering their NRY variation, the Lurs are distinguished from other Iranian groups by their relatively elevated frequency of Y-DNA Haplogroup R1b (specifically, of subclade R1b1a2a-L23).[14] Together with its other clades, the R1 group comprises the single most common haplogroup among the Lurs.[14][15] Haplogroup J2a (subclades J2a3a-M47, J2a3b-M67, J2a3h-M530, more specifically) is the second most commonly occurring patrilineage in the Lurs and is associated with the diffusion of agriculturalists from the Neolithic Near East c. 8000-4000 BCE
    Anyway I'm talking about a very ancient culture which existed in Luristan, not just modern Lurs who are clearly an Iranian-speaking people.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    All of them are subclades of J2b sample from Luristan which is the oldest one, aren't they?
    Still continuing with the same non sense J2b-L283 is a different haplogroup you illiterate and not a subclade of Z2453.
    I don't know why you are lying about Lurs, they have no R1b-Z2103 and R1a-Z93: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lurs
    Citing wikipedia? What about actual papers. The most prevalent haplogroup of Lurs is R1b-Z2103 which is under L23, R1a-Z93 is also very common.

    Stick to something else, since you have no idea about the nomenclature of haplogroups.

    I've made my points so you're now really going to be ignored by me, I have no time for some apricity weirdo that thinks all European cultures started in India/Iran or whatever the heck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    Still continuing with the same non sense J2b-L283 is a different haplogroup you illiterate and not a subclade of Z2453.
    Citing wikipedia? What about actual papers. The most prevalent haplogroup of Lurs is R1b-Z2103 which is under L23, R1a-Z93 is also very common.
    Stick to something else, since you have no idea about the nomenclature of haplogroups.
    I've made my points so you're now really going to be ignored by me, I have no time for some apricity weirdo that thinks all European cultures started in India/Iran or whatever the heck.
    You should get rid of your bias and learn new things.

    https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2022...pean-languages

    "A NEW STUDY OF ANCIENT DNA from 727 individuals who lived in the regions cradling the southern half of the Black Sea, and extending into the Levant and western Iran, narrows the hunt for the origins of Indo-European languages—spoken today as a first language by almost half the world’s population."

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    hey Moja, it is a matter of branching more than of labelling: the Illyrian branch split with the Haj Firuz branch some 12000 years ago. but probably the split happened not so far from Haj Firuz (maybe). it seems that the illyrian super great grand father probably went towards the steppe where they mixed with Estern Hunter Gathers from there. then it decided to go and settle in the adriatic sea some 3000 or 4000 years ago and it mixed with the local farmers it found there.

    nothing is certain at 100%, but chances are pretty high that 10000 years split and mixing with others will leave very little memory of the common caves they shared before the development of civilisation (most of the elements you show are developed by humans quite later).

    anyway thanks for introducing me to this population and i will go and look them up on wikipedia now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    hey Moja, it is a matter of branching more than of labelling: the Illyrian branch split with the Haj Firuz branch some 12000 years ago. but probably the split happened not so far from Haj Firuz (maybe). it seems that the illyrian super great grand father probably went towards the steppe where they mixed with Estern Hunter Gathers from there. then it decided to go and settle in the adriatic sea some 3000 or 4000 years ago and it mixed with the local farmers it found there.

    nothing is certain at 100%, but chances are pretty high that 10000 years split and mixing with others will leave very little memory of the common caves they shared before the development of civilisation (most of the elements you show are developed by humans quite later).

    anyway thanks for introducing me to this population and i will go and look them up on wikipedia now!
    You obviously never looked at the phylogeny of J2b-L283 nor have any knowledge about nomenclatures to begin with. The sample from Haj Firuz is J-Z2453 not J2b-L283. J2b-L283 did not split from Z2453 as Z2453 is not ancestral to J2b-L283 to begin with.

    Also, the oldest J-Z2453 sample has actually been found in the Mesolithic Northern Caucasus Kotias Klde Georgia ~10000 years old (sample ID NEO281), which is the oldest sample to date of this very rare haplogroup that I repeat is not ancestral to J2b-L283 but a rare haplogroup under J-M12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mount123 View Post
    You obviously never looked at the phylogeny of J2b-L283 nor have any knowledge about nomenclatures to begin with. The sample from Haj Firuz is J-Z2453 not J2b-L283. J2b-L283 did not split from Z2453 as Z2453 is not ancestral to J2b-L283 to begin with.

    Also, the oldest J-Z2453 sample has actually been found in the Mesolithic Northern Caucasus Kotias Klde Georgia ~10000 years old (sample ID NEO281), which is the oldest sample to date of this very rare haplogroup that I repeat is not ancestral to J2b-L283 but a rare haplogroup under J-M12.
    I was talking about the motherbranch of both, namely j-z534 as by YFull, the last common ancestral.

    could you be less aggressive, and maybe not so fast to conclusions please?

    if you are interested in J2b-L283, maybe you can give a look at the etruscan paper from Krausse. specifically the Venosa samples with their haplogroups and relevance. it used to be under byzantin influence. who knows why, few centuries after, arbereshe decided to settle all around Venosa in distances as close 5 km. the closest distance autosomal samples to venosa i found in the southern arc, byzantine croatia namely Trogdir (previous greek colony in Split). Has to be said that Jovialis decomposes Venosa as mainly minoan, but i am courious if there is any Balkan Hunter gathers leftover in them?

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    Nvm missread. Thought it was saying it found ancient j2b in western balkans or croatia

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    Would be nice if they uploaded more non J-L283 j2b2 samples so we can see the trends and parallels between them both. I mean to y full tree. They only have 1 ancient j2b2 non J-L283 sample uploaded to there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bergin View Post
    hey Moja, it is a matter of branching more than of labelling: the Illyrian branch split with the Haj Firuz branch some 12000 years ago. but probably the split happened not so far from Haj Firuz (maybe). it seems that the illyrian super great grand father probably went towards the steppe where they mixed with Estern Hunter Gathers from there. then it decided to go and settle in the adriatic sea some 3000 or 4000 years ago and it mixed with the local farmers it found there.
    nothing is certain at 100%, but chances are pretty high that 10000 years split and mixing with others will leave very little memory of the common caves they shared before the development of civilisation (most of the elements you show are developed by humans quite later).
    anyway thanks for introducing me to this population and i will go and look them up on wikipedia now!
    Hajji Firuz Tepe is in Azerbaijan, not Luristan, I didn't talk about it but the one which was found in Tepe Abdul Hosein in Luristan, the oldest J2b sample in the Western Balkans is from 3,750 years ago.
    This J2b-L283 whether related to Illyrians as an Indo-European people, or not. If you believe it related you should search for its origin, if you believe it related to non-IE people in Balkan, or non-Illyrian IE people, you should say who they were.

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    Of course Hajji Firuz sample can be compared to the oldest J2b sample in Balkans, both of them have a very low amount of EHG ancestry.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Luri Dance:



    Albanian Dance:

    As I posted on my thread, I think balkan tradition was formed thru celt and chariot migration around 1,600bc:

    ["Anyway, chariots, socketed weapons of SeimaTurbino type, and tin casting technology were actively used by representatives of Early Andronovo and later Karasuk societies. These set of innovations rapidly spread to all contact areas, where steppe clans interacted with ancient sedentary civilizations, and contributed to formation of Turanian, Chinese, Balkanian, and Iranian channels of communication [see: Novozhenov, 2012b:114-145; 2012d: 44-67; 2013: 100-117; 2013a; 2014a:18-267]."]






    And chariot and wagon burial culture migrated to south Caucasus. Now we know that so many Hg I popped up in the south caucasus since mid-bronze. So I think cultural similarity happened,

    Armenia:





    "THE IMPACT OF ANCIENT ARMENIAN TRADITIONS AND WORLDVIEW ON THE COGNITIVE CORE OF NORDIC CULTURE"
    http://www.iatp.am/vahanyan/articles/scandinavia-en.pdf



    That migration is unstoppable:
    south asia



    Finally china bronze, so it is difficult to be proved by population genetics. Whole eurasia cultures seem to be mingled around 1,500bc. However, I always think that it looks like mongol empire.:

    Ancient chinese oracle bone script of sky (tian):

    ["This horse-drawn chariot is ·a technically sophisticated. artifact requiring special skills and resources for its construction, use, and maintenance. Two specific features of Anyang chariots are the large number of wheel spokes (from eighteen to twenty-six. as compared with four, six, or eight in the Near East) and the mounting of the axle not at the rear edge of the box, but midway between front and back. In western Asia both features are known only from mid second-millennium chariots buried at Lchashen in the Caucasus, and for the moment these are the closest relatives of Anyang chariots, indicating a strong influence from those areas."]

    P.s
    america indian shaman


    my thread:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Turbino/page6?
    Last edited by johen; 04-09-22 at 22:07.

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    5 members found this post helpful.
    What is this thread lol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy Overlord View Post
    What is this thread lol?
    This thread is about the origin of J2b.



    As I see it is generally believed that it originated in ancient Alluria (modern Luristan in the west of Iran), do you have another opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Hajji Firuz Tepe is in Azerbaijan, not Luristan, I didn't talk about it but the one which was found in Tepe Abdul Hosein in Luristan, the oldest J2b sample in the Western Balkans is from 3,750 years ago.
    This J2b-L283 whether related to Illyrians as an Indo-European people, or not. If you believe it related you should search for its origin, if you believe it related to non-IE people in Balkan, or non-Illyrian IE people, you should say who they were.
    3,750 years is a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1337_ View Post
    3,750 years is a long time.
    Yes it is but Ali Kosh Tepe in Deh Luran (land of Lurs) was a big town 9,500 years ago.


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