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Thread: J2b, From Eluri/Alluria (Luristan) to Illyria (Illuría)

  1. #26
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.

  2. #27
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course; they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
    Pointed this out in post #15 of mine and also more precisely that 10,000 year old Mesolithic Northern Caucasus sample is Z2453 and that haplogroup is very very rare. And most importantly it is not ancestral to J2b-L283, but a haplogroup that split from another lineage.

    ~16000 years ago formed Z1825, so we are talking about the Upper Paleolithic here.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
    Please show me your source about the oldest J2b in Georgia, are you sure it is J2b, not J2a?

    The oldest J2b sample is from Alluria/Luristan: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...J2_Y-DNA.shtml

  4. #29
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Please show me your source about the oldest J2b in Georgia, are you sure it is J2b, not J2a?

    The oldest J2b sample is from Alluria/Luristan: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...J2_Y-DNA.shtml

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...05.04.490594v1

  5. #30
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    I read it, it says nothing about J2b in Georgia.

  6. #31
    Regular Member Polska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    I read it, it says nothing about J2b in Georgia.
    He’s in there somewhere. Might be in the supplementary section. Sample: NEO281
    J2b. 100% CHG.

  7. #32
    Regular Member Anfänger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
    The whole bullshit Moja posts aside but if I remember correctly Tepe Abdul Hossein (Neolithic) is J2b. Also, I am pretty sure that CHG is an offshoot of a early form of Iran_N, at least the admixture chart from Allentoft et al. 2022 preprint indicates that.

    IMG_7825.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anfänger View Post
    The whole bullshit Moja posts aside
    I have about 10,000 Lur followers, including several Lur scholars, I talk to them just about ancient Illyrians/Allurians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    This thread is about the origin of J2b.



    As I see it is generally believed that it originated in ancient Alluria (modern Luristan in the west of Iran), do you have another opinion?

    This map is just the result of a hopeful wish of yours?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    This map is just the result of a hopeful wish of yours?
    No, this is from this website: https://j2-m172.info/ (J2-M172 Haplogroup Research)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Is it scythian culture?

  13. #38
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    Zurla is an Ottoman-Persian instrument and Prizren as a region has insignificant to no J2b-L283 at all, it is mostly R1b-Z2103 and E1b-V13. Not to forget all of the Tallava-Balkan Romany influence in music.

    This thread is theapricity.com worthy.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Is it scythian culture?
    No it is Luri.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    No it is Luri.
    Since when?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Since when?
    Lurs are believed to be the aboriginal people in the west of Iran.

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    In the south of Alluria there was ancient Elam, some Elamite words: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...e_Swadesh_list

    Elamite u "I" – Albanian u "reflexive pronoun"
    Elamite ni-ka "we" – Albanian ne "we"
    Elamite zana "woman, lady" – Albanian zonjë "lady"
    Elamite at-ta "father" - Albanian atë "father"
    Elamite am-ma "mother" - Albanian mëmë "mother"
    Elamite uk-ku "head" - Albanian kokë "head"
    Elamite pa-at "foot" - Albanian putër "paw"
    Elamite kir-pi "hand" - Albanian krah "arm"
    Elamite krmi "worm" - Albanian krimbi "worm"
    Elamite da "river" - Albanian det "sea"
    Elamite ma-ri-ya "good" - Albanian mirë "good"

  18. #43
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    mariya mariya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    In the south of Alluria there was ancient Elam, some Elamite words: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appen...e_Swadesh_list

    Elamite u "I" – Albanian u "reflexive pronoun"
    Elamite ni-ka "we" – Albanian ne "we"
    Elamite zana "woman, lady" – Albanian zonjë "lady"
    Elamite at-ta "father" - Albanian atë "father"
    Elamite am-ma "mother" - Albanian mëmë "mother"
    Elamite uk-ku "head" - Albanian kokë "head"
    Elamite pa-at "foot" - Albanian putër "paw"
    Elamite kir-pi "hand" - Albanian krah "arm"
    Elamite krmi "worm" - Albanian krimbi "worm"
    Elamite da "river" - Albanian det "sea"
    Elamite ma-ri-ya "good" - Albanian mirë "good"
    curiously the elamitic words ni-ka, zana, at-ta, am-ma, pa-at, ma-ri-ya with the cited meanings seem shared with IE languages or to have some remote common para-language roots.

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    the more basic don't seem coincidences

  21. #46
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    ''Ate'' in Albanian is most likely a Turkish loan word for Father from Turkish ''Ata'' , same as ''Baba''

    Zana was an Illyrian mythological figure in Albanian and Romanian https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zana

    ''Ze'' or ''Za'' I think means sound .

    'Meme'' is actually ''Nana'' in Albanian or ''Nene'' ... ''Mama'' , ''Meme'' is also clearly IE .


    Some of those are not convincing, not that similar and possibly only IE. Some don't seem to have the same origin or etmylogy .

    But similarities can be found in many populations I agree .

  22. #47
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    Or the Turkish ''Ata'' could just have the same roots as Albanian ''Ate'' , I don't know. Turkish could of loaned from IE languages like Kurdish, Persian etc ''Baba'' I believe is Arabic or Persian or something which is similar to Germanic ''Pappa'' .

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    A Turkish loan word?! Isn't Albanian an Indo-European language? Hittite attas "father", Lydian ata "father", Old Irish aite "father", Gothic atta "father", Old High German atto "father", Old English atta (English dad) "father", Ancient Greek átta "father", Latin atta "father", Tajik ota "father",...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    A Turkish loan word?! Isn't Albanian an Indo-European language? Hittite attas "father", Lydian ata "father", Old Irish aite "father", Gothic atta "father", Old High German atto "father", Old English atta (English dad) "father", Ancient Greek átta "father", Latin atta "father", Tajik ota "father",...
    Of course Albanian has some Turkish loan words from Ottoman Empire . As for ''Ate'' regarding ''father'' , see my post again that it could be IE which you just proved with your post that it is obviously IE. Turkish has loaned possibly from Indo-European. ''Baba'' is also an Indo-European loan word most likely but Albanian got it from Turkish possibly. I am not sure. I am not a linguistic. Maybe there are similarities from between Non-IE and IE from pre-IE times.

  25. #50
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    It is also possibly many of these so called ''Latin'' loan words in Albanian are most likely not even Latin in origin but IE

    Such as Albanian ''Lexo'' ''Read'' Latin: Lego or Legere, Lectito, German ''Lesen''

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