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Thread: J2b, From Eluri/Alluria (Luristan) to Illyria (Illuría)

  1. #51
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    the basic vocabulary is as a whole a good marker of common origin for a language family ; but when it comes to the most basic one, as the family/filiation words, they can be shared with other families themselves issued of a previous larger group of languages. Specially for the meanings of 'father' and 'mother', whose origin come from onomatopoeas I think (baby language?)
    cncerning 'zana' it evoks me 'zhena' woman in Satem tongues; was Elamitic a language with 'satem' tendancies? I know nothing about this...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    cncerning 'zana' it evoks me 'zhena' woman in Satem tongues; was Elamitic a language with 'satem' tendancies?
    No, Elamite was a Centum language, that is a loan word in Elamite, about Proto-IE ḱ, compare these words:

    Elmaite ik-tin "cloth" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-257
    From Proto-IE ḱed- "to cover, cloth", cognate with Old English haeteru "clothes"

    Elamite ak-pi "holy, sacred" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-741
    From Proto-IE *ḱwe- "holy", cognate with Avestan spəṇta "holy

    Elamite duk "conceive" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-207
    From Proto-IE *deyḱ- "to point out", cognate with Greek deíknūmi "make known"

    Elamite duk-ti-ir "friend, companion" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-697
    From Proto-IE *deḱ- "respect, take" + -tḗr (agent suffix), cognate with Latin decet "decent"

    Elamite kar-ik "helmet": https://ids.clld.org/units/216-717
    From Proto-IE *ḱerh₂- "horn", cognate with Greek kórus "helmet"

    Elamite kiš-ki-ip-man-na "carpenter" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-366
    From Proto-IE *ḱes- "cut" + -mon "man", cognate with Latin castro "prune"

    Elamite kumaš "he goat" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-123
    From Proto-IE *ḱem- "short-horned beast", cognate with Latin camox "chamois"

    Elamite kir- "hand" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-185
    From Proto-IE *ḱreh₂ "arm, leg", cognate with Albanian krah "arm"

    Elamite mu-uk-ti "master" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-685
    From Proto-IE *meh₂ḱ- "great" , cognate with Latin magister "master"

    Elamite tuk-na "wool" https://ids.clld.org/units/216-259
    From Proto-IE *doḱ- "hair of the tail", cognate with Gothic tagl "hair"

  3. #53
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Illyrian coinage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_coinage





    The ancient story of Barmaya cow and Derafsh Kaviani


    Barmaya cow, British Museum: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...1948-1211-0-20


    Derafsh Kaviani

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Moja, some of the cognate words or supposed so could be reliable, perhaps not all of them, I am not sure.
    But some similitudes of designs or pictures are so common that they don't signify too much, IMO.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Illyrian coinage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_coinage





    The ancient story of Barmaya cow and Derafsh Kaviani


    Barmaya cow, British Museum: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...1948-1211-0-20


    Derafsh Kaviani
    Might be on to something with the illyrian coins and the lydian thing. I said that Mok 15 of J-L283 was mostly aegean and its the oldest J2b-L283. I said it most like landed in the adriatic from the near the aegean.
    They keep equating J-L283 with steppe into central europe even though J-L283 is only near the medditernean and balkans. Its never in Northern europe or western europe pre roman era.

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    According to Iranian mythology, Iranians are the descendants of Iraj (Aryoxis), one sons of Fereydun, the great king who was nourished by the cow Barmaya and conquered the world with Derafsh Kaviani, the oldest son of Fereydon was Salm (Salmoxis), as you read here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salm_(Shahnameh) "When Fereydun decides to divide his kingdom among his sons, he gives Salm Anatolia and West." Herodotus has talked about Salmoxis, as the earliest king of Thracians.

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    According to the inscription of Assyrian king Tukulti-Ninurta I (1243–1207 BC), other than Eluri (Illuría/Illyria), there were also some other lands in the ancient Luristan in the west of Iran:

    Albada, land of Albani, from Proto-Indo-European *alb- “mountain”, an Illyrian tribe

    Sikabda, land of Shqip, from Proto-Indo-European *skubo “eagle”, Albanians

    Kurbata, land of Xorvata (Croat): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...1%8Arvat%D1%8A


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    Croatian migration according to Croatian sources:

    https://izvornik.fandom.com/wiki/Jes...vati_Iranci%3F



    https://www.hkv.hr/izdvojeno/vai-pri...lu-hrvata.html

    Google Translate:

    Learning about the values of Iranian origin of Croats

    The question of the origin of Croats is for each of us a test of our patriotic and patriotic maturity. We have abandoned and neglected the solid foundations of our nation's origin, the cradle of our birth, the place from which we proudly carry our indelible, inalienable and eternal name Croat. We have allowed strangers and disfavored people to determine our place of birth and name, so we have already been Goths and Eastern Goths and Celts and Illyrians and Germans and Dalmatians and Serbian Catholics and native Balkans and descendants of the nomadic tribes of the Sarmatians, so that in the end, as writes the German dictionary from 1955: "South Slavic tribe from the Balkans". Everything and everyone, with one sole purpose, to hide our real trail.

    Proving the origin of Croats has so far been carried out mainly from the political-strategic point of view of benefiting foreigners. At the time of Austria-Hungary, we were called Illyrians. During II. during the World War we became Goths, and after 1945, at the time and for the benefit of the single-minded dictatorship, communist Yugoslavia, we had to be South Slavs. In freedom and independence, we stand today with the strength of our Croatian argument: the truth of Iranian origin, based on our own, international and exclusively scientific and research achievements, but this time without the participation of daily politics and the benefits of foreigners.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting. But the name of Croat or Hrvat is the hat over a lot of diverse origins. THe name story itself could be more complicated than believed:

    by Željko Buzov, Croatia, 15 July 2002
    The history of the Croatian people is a history of their name. The very records regarding the name of the Croats, who from time immemorial appear in numerous historical sources scattered on the vast territory of Eurasia, testify with great certainty about the existence, prehistory and origin (ethnogenesis) of the Croats, and of their migrations.
    Traces of the name HRVAT (Croat) can be found in European place names scattered over a wide area, but are specially numerous in present day Austria and Slovenia. The name has, to the present day, been preserved in place names in Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, Macedonia, Greece, Montenegro and Albania. In the tenth century the name HRVAT could be found in every nation known today as a Slavic nation. In the mid-nineteenth century a group of Eastern Orthodox Ukrainians still called themselves HORVATS (Croats). The Russian linguist and historian Derzavin believes that there is an old Russian tribe, called the Croats, in the very foundations of the Ukrainian nation, although this is suspected to be more to do with the Russian habit of adopting everything and proclaiming it as "Russian".
    At the end of the nineteenth and beginning of the twentieth century White Croats still lived around Krakow (Pope John Paul II was born in Krakow as Karol Woytila. His mother's birth records state her nationality as "White Croat" The lady was born in Poland at the end of the nineteenth century and the records can be verified).
    There have been various explanations of the name HRVAT (Croat). There are those who believe that in the beginning the name did not have any ethnic meaning, it simply meant a social status. Today, scientists agree that the name Croat is not of Old Slav origin; many linguists believe that the name Croat is of Old Iranian origin. The oldest known record of the Croatian name was found in the written documents of the Mittannian-Hurrian King Tusratta (circa 1420-1400 BC) who called himself the Great King and the King of the Mittanni. He called his kingdom Huravat Ehillaku - Croatian Kingdom. The present name HRVAT devolved from the name H(u)R(a)VAT over the next two thousand years. The old Huravat Kingdom is, in historical sources, found under different names:
    The Hittites and the Medians called it Mittanni, the Egyptians referred to it as Naharian (the land of the river, or river basin) while in Assyro-Babylonian records, on the other hand, it is known as Haniagablat. The kingdom spread across a vast territory, from the Tigris to the Mediterranean Sea, on one side, and from the Habura River to the Assyrian border with Egypt, on the other. In the fifteenth century BC it was a major power in the Near East. On the coast of the Mediterranean Sea, west of present-day Syria, and north of the Tiberiad Sea (the Sea of Galilee), where the mighty Kingdom of Huravat once flourished, there stood a town named Arvat (Hrvat), until the Arabs conquered the whole area in the seventh century AD. The majority of the population were the Hurrits, known in historical sources as: Hurrs, Harrs, Horrs and Horrians. They peacefully migrated to Mesopotamia crossing present-day Kurdistan from which later emerged Armenia.
    The elite class were the Indo-European-Asian mounted warriors and conquerors known as Mariani (incidentally, ninth century AD Latin documents call Old Croatian warriors from the Nereveta River the Mariani). The ruling class was known as the Mittanni and from that, very often, even the Kingdom of Huravat was called the Land/State of Mittanni. The Aryan Mittanni probably rode to Mesopotamia, crossing Iran, from their Aryan homeland which lies around the Caspian Sea. In that region there is, even today, a place known as Kyzil Arvat (Red Croat). The Mittanni brought business efficiency to the Hurrites, which they lacked. The result was the emergence of a new power in the Near East. The name Huravat probably came from the word Hurrit, which was known as the Caucasian region. The Old Testament places the Hurrites in Palestine.
    The Anglo-Saxon King Alfred the Great (871-901), in his translation of Orosius's History of the World uses the word Horrits for the Croats. It is believed that the Iranian province of Horrati could easily be the ancestral homeland of the Croats. In present-day Afghanistan, which the Hurrites must have crossed on their way to Mesopotamia, a group of people speak a language which the Afghans themselves call Croatian (in French: le croate). In the archives of the capital of the Hittite Kingdom of Husa, today the Turkish village Bogazkoy in Asia Minor, there still exist tablets with inscriptions in the Hurrit (proto-Croatian Huravat) language. Among other texts written on those tablets, there is a part of a translation of the Sumerian-Babylonian epic Gilgamesh into, what is supposed to be a pre-Croatian language. The hero of the epic bears the title Ban (viceroy).
    The Kingdom of Huravat existed from the sixteenth to the fourteenth century BC as and independent state and then it became an integral part of the Hittite state. The Hittites had already been intermarrying with the Huravats and worshipped many of their gods. The Huravat scribes and magicians were also received in the Hittites' court. The Huravats taught the Hittites the art of writing, and the Hittites adopted the cuneiform script invented by the Sumerians. The Huravats taught them the craft of stone-cutting and the decoration of standing tomb-stones. Part of the Huravats retreated from Mesopotamia into present-day Armenia. There they found their fellow countrymen, the Hurrits. The two together formed a new state with its capital and headquarters on Van Lake. The new state, like the Mesopotamian one, was called the Kingdom of Huravat; the Persians knew them by the same name. In other foreign sources the Kingdom of Huravat is called the State of Uruatu, and in world history books the Van Empire.
    According to historical sources, this other Croatian state existed from about the thirteenth to about the sixth century BC. In its own sources it is known as Bilaini; the Bible calls it Ararat. The Kingdom of Huravat, with its capital Tushpa, flourished during the tenth century BC, and very successfully resisted all Assyrian attacks. During the eighth century BC when the Assyrians were quite weak, the Kingdom of Huravat became the leading power in that part of Asia. It occupied Northern Assyria and spread to the Southern Caucasus, and from Urmia Lake to the Black Sea. At the beginning of the sixth century BC it became a part of the Maad Harhvati.
    The culture of the Van Huravats, which apart from the Mesopotamian culture, had links with Mediterranean Greek culture, later influenced Armenian and Georgian culture as well (architecture, pleat design, standing tombstones, script).
    FOLLOWING PAGES:
    Death of a Dynasty
    RULERS OF CROATIA:
    Byzantine Empire
    Croatia
    Kingdom of Hungary & Croatia
    Kingdom of Yugoslavia
    EXTERNAL LINK:
    Common Origin of Croats, Serbs & Jats

    Mitanni chariot sculpture
    In texts by the Assyrian King Tiglatapilester III, the name Huravat appears as Araquttu. Linguists agree that it is the same as the Old Iranian Harhavat, Old Persian Hara(h)uvats, Avestian, Harah(v)aiti, Indian Sarasvati, and Greek Arahozia. In all these examples and forms, the name Harahvat means (land) rich with water, rivers. From the thirteenth century BC when the Van Huravat Kingdom was founded, it is believed that on the territory of the present-day Iran and Afghanistan, there existed another Croatian state which was called Harahvati and Harahvatia where the proto-Croat Hurrite had been living.
    This Croatian State is mentioned by Zoroaster, the Old Iranian teacher, reformer and founder of Zoroastrism, in the holy books of Avesta (Vendidat I, 12). In his books Zoroaster writes that one of the six immortal virtues is Harvat - well-being. The Avestian form of the word is the same in the Croatian Chakavian dialect: Haravat.
    The celebrated Persian poet Firdusi, in his epic Book of Kings (which is a kind of a history of Iran), says that Zoroaster's father was an Aurvat. This word corresponds to a Croatian form of the word Arvat, which very often appears in old Croatian written records, as well as in spoken folk tradition (in Muslim folk songs there is frequent mention of: Arvat's Ajka; Mujo of the Arvats; Arvat's Mujo.) Zoroaster was probably a Harahvat-Hrvat (Croat), by origin. This can be deduced from a hymn found in the Avesta which he wrote to honour his beloved Harahvaiti: "As the tenth among the best places and settlements I, Ahuramazda, have created the beautiful Harahvaiti."
    In the vicinity of the Afghanistani town of Kandahara, on the site of the former capital of the Harahvaiti state, there is a village called Haravacia. In the village, the ornaments are the same as those found in Istria and on the island of Krk, while women wear the same kind of aprons that are found in some Croatian provinces today.
    In a Glagolitic charter from 1463, Hungarian-Croatian King Matthias Corvin calls himself Matthias, King of Hungary, Dalmatia and Hrvacia, by God's mercy! In a complaint filed by a noblemen named Gusetic and addressed to Ban (Viceroy) Pavao I Subic of Bribir, he mentions a region called Hrvatia in the province of Lika.

    Assyrian soldiers
    Image © Pergamon Museum, Berlin
    The views expressed here are the author's own. They may not reflect the views of others and no inference should be made that this is the case.

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    The old name of xoræmɒ (Khorramabad), capital of Luristan, was Xorvat.


    Historic coat of arms of Croatia

    https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec..._1947-0501-466



    Description

    Tripod-footed painted carinated ceramic vessel; white ware; decoration painted in dull reddish-brown pigment to form a pattern of alternating diagonally cross-hatched square chequers.

    Production date

    2000BC-1500BC (Early-mid 2nd millennium BC) (Early-mid 2nd millennium BC)

    Findspot

    Asia: Middle East: Iran: Iran, West: Luristan (province)

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Whatever the remote linguistic origin of the name, it stays to prove the way(s) taken by the people who carried this name to central Europe...

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    Luristan is located in the centre of Zagros Mountain, Lurs call this mountain Zagrev/Zagreb, the same as Croatian capital, some linguists believe the original name of it was Zaberg "mountainous land", from za/zam "land/earth" and berg "mountain" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A...orthern_Lurish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moja View Post
    Luristan is located in the centre of Zagros Mountain, Lurs call this mountain Zagrev/Zagreb, the same as Croatian capital, some linguists believe the original name of it was Zaberg "mountainous land", from za/zam "land/earth" and berg "mountain" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D8%A...orthern_Lurish
    I have some difficulties to swallow the undiscutable common origin of all these pronouciations AND meanings... But, who knows?...

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    Name of another ancient region in the west of Iran near the land of Zamua was Liburna, inscription of Ashurnasirpal II:



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnia

    Liburnia (Ancient Greek: Λιβουρνία) in ancient geography was the land of the Liburnians, a region along the northeastern Adriatic coast in Europe, in modern Croatia, whose borders shifted according to the extent of the Liburnian dominance at a given time between 11th and 1st century BC.


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