J2b, From Eluri/Alluria (Luristan) to Illyria (Illuría)

Moja said:
Luri Dance:


Albanian Dance:

Click to expand...
As I posted on my thread, I think balkan tradition was formed thru celt and chariot migration around 1,600bc:

["Anyway, chariots, socketed weapons of SeimaTurbino type, and tin casting technology were actively used by representatives of Early Andronovo and later Karasuk societies. These set of innovations rapidly spread to all contact areas, where steppe clans interacted with ancient sedentary civilizations, and contributed to formation of Turanian, Chinese, Balkanian, and Iranian channels of communication [see: Novozhenov, 2012b:114-145; 2012d: 44-67; 2013: 100-117; 2013a; 2014a:18-267]."]

i5dOvMH.png



Model-of-the-proposed-spread-of-socketed-axes-from-east-to-west-At-present-radiocarbon.png


And chariot and wagon burial culture migrated to south Caucasus. Now we know that so many Hg I popped up in the south caucasus since mid-bronze. So I think cultural similarity happened,

Armenia:
Ukhtasar-4.jpg

Azhdahak-Rock.jpg

images

images


"THE IMPACT OF ANCIENT ARMENIAN TRADITIONS AND WORLDVIEW ON THE COGNITIVE CORE OF NORDIC CULTURE"
http://www.iatp.am/vahanyan/articles/scandinavia-en.pdf

14-c2305a9841.jpg


That migration is unstoppable:
south asia
image75.jpg

images
4a%20to%204d.jpg
Figure%201%20Francke%20Petroglyph%20sites.jpg


Finally china bronze, so it is difficult to be proved by population genetics. Whole eurasia cultures seem to be mingled around 1,500bc. However, I always think that it looks like mongol empire.:

Ancient chinese oracle bone script of sky (天 tian):
%E5%A4%A9-bronze-shang.svg

["This horse-drawn chariot is ·a technically sophisticated. artifact requiring special skills and resources for its construction, use, and maintenance. Two specific features of Anyang chariots are the large number of wheel spokes (from eighteen to twenty-six. as compared with four, six, or eight in the Near East) and the mounting of the axle not at the rear edge of the box, but midway between front and back. In western Asia both features are known only from mid second-millennium chariots buried at Lchashen in the Caucasus, and for the moment these are the closest relatives of Anyang chariots, indicating a strong influence from those areas."]

P.s
america indian shaman
Shaman-and-coyote-petroglyph.gif


my thread:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ained-without-mentioning-Seima-Turbino/page6?
 
Last edited:
Moja said:
Hajji Firuz Tepe is in Azerbaijan, not Luristan, I didn't talk about it but the one which was found in Tepe Abdul Hosein in Luristan, the oldest J2b sample in the Western Balkans is from 3,750 years ago.
This J2b-L283 whether related to Illyrians as an Indo-European people, or not. If you believe it related you should search for its origin, if you believe it related to non-IE people in Balkan, or non-Illyrian IE people, you should say who they were.
Click to expand...

3,750 years is a long time.
 
The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
 
Polska said:
The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course; they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
Click to expand...
Pointed this out in post #15 of mine and also more precisely that 10,000 year old Mesolithic Northern Caucasus sample is Z2453 and that haplogroup is very very rare. And most importantly it is not ancestral to J2b-L283, but a haplogroup that split from another lineage.

~16000 years ago formed Z1825, so we are talking about the Upper Paleolithic here.
 
Polska said:
The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
Click to expand...

Please show me your source about the oldest J2b in Georgia, are you sure it is J2b, not J2a?

The oldest J2b sample is from Alluria/Luristan: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml
 
Moja said:
I read it, it says nothing about J2b in Georgia.
Click to expand...

He’s in there somewhere. Might be in the supplementary section. Sample: NEO281
J2b. 100% CHG.
 
Polska said:
The oldest J2b ever discovered is from 10,000 years ago in Kotias Cave, Georgia. He was 100% CHG. So these J2b lineages from Iran represent a migration out of the Caucasus into Iran and beyond. There is no connection between these J2b groups in Europe and Iran, except to say that they descend from a common core group of ancestors from the Caucasus. Of course, they are on separate branches that split from one another over 10000 years ago. The European branch, J2b L283, likely forming somewhere on the steppe.
Click to expand...
The whole bullshit Moja posts aside but if I remember correctly Tepe Abdul Hossein (Neolithic) is J2b. Also, I am pretty sure that CHG is an offshoot of a early form of Iran_N, at least the admixture chart from Allentoft et al. 2022 preprint indicates that.

IMG_7825.jpg
 
Moja said:
This thread is about the origin of J2b.

Major_Y-Hg_Movements_into_Europe_speculative_map_2014c1.png


As I see it is generally believed that it originated in ancient Alluria (modern Luristan in the west of Iran), do you have another opinion?
Click to expand...


This map is just the result of a hopeful wish of yours?
 
[FONT=&quot]Zurla is an Ottoman-Persian instrument and Prizren as a region has insignificant to no J2b-L283 at all, it is mostly R1b-Z2103 and E1b-V13. Not to forget all of the Tallava-Balkan Romany influence in music.

This thread is theapricity.com worthy.[/FONT]
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 12960 times.

Back
Top